Kingfisher06

The topic is a statewide ban being lobbied by school children by way of a teacher's agenda. My style of speech offends you? I can't ask for people to go beyond emotional and hypocritical arguments? There is a collective, feel good mob mentality versus my individual aggressive speech. One begets the other.

Oh my, of course controversial issues ought to be on the table. I obviously enjoy critical thinking and loved debates in high school. I believe a mock demonstration is more than applicable. To sidetrack answering the question I posed to you in two examples, you now claim the teacher is no longer in control of his curriculum; the students are, but a few posts ago claim there is a long chain of command on what a teacher utilizes as curriculum. So is what you're saying as a retired teacher is: dodge dodge dodge accountability at all costs? Is this the modus operandi for teachers? Seems so.

I think I called s8man a bullcrap artist once, sorry sk8man. Otherwise claiming someone is dangerous, unethical is fair. If there are other name calling I apologize. You don't understand how insulted I am by the methods and means of this proposition, its frustrating.

You really don't understand...who is asking for the abolishment of game laws?

Just answer the question instead of taking it personally, do you support those other examples I presented or not? Edit: By the way I did not claim you lacked deep ethical responsibility, unless you answered hypocritically. Cart before horse.

Most all the kids hunt or fish, that’s great. Have most or all of them sold a few pails of fish prior to your class? Have they experienced both sides on their own outside of school, with their family? I guess not. Virtually no regulations; sounds like heaven to my ears, but to most on here familiar with the process, it’s quite evident there are and they are sufficient. Do you really believe the sellers don’t feel an investment in the resources? That’s a misconception. Like Gambler mentioned earlier in the thread, the gossip on the internet has probably influenced fishing pressure more than any other avenue in the last decade. Maybe your kids should seek to ban Lakeontariounited, with no true causal proof. I know I never gossiped about where I was making a buck, and the fellas I knew on the bay sure as hell were not advertising their whereabouts or posting reports that would lead to further competition/pressure. So Capitalism, in your mind, therefor what you are teaching the kids is: Utilizing the State to outlaw competition in the market place. Really? That is so wrong and dangerous and exactly what has led to the unchecked greed and unfairness we see in today’s economy. You are a dangerous man. Why not let restaurants decide if they want farm-raised or local caught and let the buying power of the customers decide? I know why, but wait a second. Is it illegal for perch to end up somewhere other than a local restaurant, really? I’d think selling locally first, saving on shipment costs would be beneficial, but then shipping when the market was saturated would be quite feasible to a business model. I think it is a great understanding to have; how govt works. But you sir, you have a dangerous mind. In the “Seneca Perch†thread on page seven you say: The one thing that is difficult to control is invasives, so when we see invasives we need to make adjustments to those things we have control over…eliminate the selling and request more enforcement to put the greedy ones on notice are some of the things that can be controlled.†You are incapable of doing the scientific work and rigor to find the causal agent to find a solution so you go after a perceived boogeyman. Why is it hard to regulate the introduction of invasives throught the Seaway? Because big business has big bucks, big lobbies and the State has open pockets. It called Crony Capitalism, the style you teach! I propose the causal agent is the unchecked greed that pays off big govt to look the other way. How does govt get so big? Because of indoctrinators like you. Teaching kids to turn to the govt to intervene and eliminate healthy competition. Teaching kids to control folks, without causal proof of doing any harm, to pretend to do good for the “collective†through the long arm of the state through increased enforcement and degradation of opportunity. You are a protected teacher, probably tenured and immune to competition, you have a vested interest in non-competition through state means. Doesn’t mean you have to teach it too.

Not just Kevin, anybody can chime in, would you support a teacher, who's hobby is organizing PETA demonstrations, rally her children to outlaw the Charter and Guide industry? Either side of a debate can be argued emotionally, and manipulatively especially by a teacher figure to students!!!!! What say you? And I don't care about the wishy-washy side notes Kevin presents about duck ID, or hunter safety instructors, or whatever else outside his capacity as a NYS taxpayer funded HS teacher. As a biology teacher, its a science based discipline, with very little room at the highschool level for an agenda to slip through. What could have been questioned as an agenda in a biology classroom at the H.S., I'm sure I don't want to know, good grief.

So Kevin, You'd have absolutely no issue with a bunch of students organized by one teacher to further the coverage of the Safe Act for example to include all semi-autos. A ban, not registration, where a forced buy-back would be initiated. All semi-autos, your Ruger 10/22, all hand guns, etc. A bunch of students who before this class never owned a firearm, or had ever really thought or been taught about the whole issue at hand? A whole group of students at the forefront of a petition to sway the public officials in the favor of the teachers agenda is ok with you? If that is ok, then I can sit back and understand you've taken a position, if it is not, then you are a hypocrite who is swayed by your individual interests and lack any type of deep ethical responsibility.

Kevin, the netters of past are a different story than the hook n line folks. I agree, for example, the market hunters in the Chesapeake with their punt guns put a hurting on waterfowl numbers. But, I see no difference between guides bringing out clients everyday of the season on the Chesapeake and the hook n line folks around here. As a retired teacher I am surprised you find no ethical issue with this rallying of students to propose a statewide ban on hook n line selling of fish. Didn't your students trust you to know your subject implicitly? Didn't your students wish to do well, which made them vulnerable to a curriculum. A curriculum with an agenda based upon opinion and not fact is not ethical in my book. There is obviously a debate here, albeit a lop-sided one, but I'd be a pissed parent if this were one of my kids. Banning activities based on emotion, straw men and perceive threats is a style of politics today. That is what they are learning. I've begged to be swayed. The OP claims to have lots of info. All I've seen is some old news about farming around Seneca

I'm not claiming to know it all. I can look at the data that exists for the eastern basin of Ontario and understand the perch population is stable. I can read a scientific report from years ago that showed causation from cormorant predation on yearling perch, subsequent egg oiling efforts allowing a rebound in that age class. I can rally around good data. Rather than call for a statewide ban on hook and line selling, why not rally for Seneca Lake science projects?

Yes, (most, not all) from my experience.

Where I sold perch they were inspected. The routine is like restaurants, a type of surprise we are here to look around for violations. It wasn't a scheduled routine (routine was a poor choice of words), because that would defeat the purpose. The place where I sold did cut filets for restaurants so, yes there is a inspection.

Sorry, but you don't need a fishery to crash to monitor fish populations. Where do you come up with this stuff? A proactive plan is understanding baseline data for a body of water over time and like I said earlier, get out to the University's and State to support such science. Don't fear monger with words like 'crash' to rally up emotional support. Like was said before, ad nauseam, selling and buying of fish is regulated and inspected routinely. Good grief. And yes, finally, your last sentence makes sense, the guys who buy and sell fish are incentivized to follow the rules. Holy Moses.

I'm not going to invade the privacy of the folks who make bucks to keep the lights on during the winter or who just sell for the fun of it to keep their excursions feasible and post their names and numbers to keep this from being anecdotal on my end. If you don't see enough of that from a few folks who've accounted that on just this thread, then read harder. There are always going to be some bad eggs. Just like the Sandy Hook incident that spurned the Safe Act. You cannot regulate the lone wolf retard. Has the Safe Act stopped gun violence in NY or just issued more tickets? Have the strictest gun laws that are in nation in Chicago curtailed gun murders? Do you think outlawing activities where the vast majority exercises lawfully works? Or does it just give the state more power? Has the Patriot Act kept you safer or allowed your rights to be infringed? You dont ever give up your rights or privileges, ever. Now I know, you'll say what does that have to do with hook and line fishing. But I plead with you all to present solid info that that is the causation to perch declines before you take away a way a good way of life. For crap's sake, a guy who tries to catch fish inland to make a buck is a dying art, not profession. Attack the state for allowing crap land use practices, subsidies that promote it. Get to the base of the problem and you will see it is a massive promotion of the state for the few to profit or have power. Anyone who roots for the state to fix their state issued grievance is rattling the cage the state put them in the first place. You can be a sheep who yells at the sheep to keep in order and yell to the collie that there is a straggler, or you can be bighorn who busts a hole in the fence and butts heads for freedom. I'm all for scientific based evidence to ensure we practice our efforts properly. Hell, I am a biologist who works and makes policy within this state. I went to school for a long time and I hunt and fish and have a burgeoning family who wishes to see the resources exist for a long time for the traditions i hold dear to endure. I won't see emotional re activity trump science or tradition. It's B>S

Just show me something definitive, that's all I ask. The premise of this post is a statewide ban on hook and line selling of fish.

Unjustly applying the term conspiracy, or racist, ___ phobe to people to discredit fair concerns is a common tactic used by folks who base their agendas on nothing more than emotions. Making a case that a 8" perch in the pail is pointless for food is disingenuous. If you believe the perch fishery is in danger and have a gang of like minded friends, then make up some jewelry and propose to each other that you'll abstain from fishing them. Start a FB page to promote your abstinence. Ask the local university to initiate some masters/PHd studies to fill the gap of understanding. Ask the DEC to focus a few surveys on your areas of concern and get some data to cumulate, which can then be bounced off university literature. All this anecdotal, emotional appeal does not help your case, period.

Yes, eutrophication of lakes happens naturally. Generally, natural eutrophication is a slow process and cyclical. Cultural eutrophication happens rather quickly and is quelled by changing surrounding land use practices in the watershed. If those nasty perch guys would stop pooping over their transom, scumbags...

There you go, send the pawns, I mean children to picket the wineries to use less fertilizer and chemicals...oh but the wineries are so good for the economy, its such a state treasure, its got to be those dirty, greedy, scamming perch guys.

Youre confused with what I said, but whatever, lol I think I've made my point here, some will not get it, some will disagree, and this horse is beat...

They are not following an issue, they are lobbying to outlaw something legal. I don't think it is a teacher's place to do that. School children are heavily influenced by teachers. They are vulnerable, it should be a study of two sides, unbiased and left at that. a lesson on civics and it's process. A classroom exercise. I've already said: show me some concrete peer reviewed studies that go beyond correlation, that show causation that hook and line commercial fishing is unsustainable in these waters and I will gladly concede that issue. I see the teacher signed in several times, post something, other than a teary eyed child holding an empty pail.

Each year NYSDEC does a Lake Ontario survey, mostly gill netting I believe. The eastern basin perch numbers are stable and doing their normal fluctuations. I don't know about Finger Lakes data. I truly believe this push to outlaw commercial hook and line is purely driven by emotions. It's absurd. Regulating based on emotions and selling that emotion through a child's voice is disingenuous at best.

I wouldn't say it was off the books. Harvey kept records of each purchase and you had to sign your name with each sale on his record sheet. You'd get a receipt and he had a duplicate. It's been a long time since I sold perch, things are coming back to me, sorry for the parceled out response Errabbit. I disagree Errabit, I don't think rallying students to lobby for a law change around a teacher's belief is Way Awesome. Should the process of participating in Govt be taught, of course, but this just stinks of manipulation.

Agreed that folks shouldn't break the law. I disagree that the level of hook and line fishing could fall under "tragedy of commons" theory. Now if there was netters, that theory could be applicable.

Alright, sorry, it's just odd to me that you are aware of such things, seemed like an assumption, that's all.

It is a privacy issue as well. It is really none of anyone's business why someone is doing what they do legally. If Warren Buffet wants to sell perch that's his own damn business. I couldn't agree more about the pathetic nature of someone on the dole complaining about tax woes or breaking the law, when in essence using the state as a strong man to reach in another's pocket. That is an entirely different issue then whats at hand. And you are assuming a lot making a statement about who you think is and is not on the dole.