LongLine

Boze - Thank you for the two "Lamprey Control" contributions to this thread.

Thanx. Was something below the gum line hitting a root. A shot, scapple...all better. I'd like to know the source of those numbers. I'm just amazed at all the support for a convicted tax dodger. Hope you all have your batteries charged. Buffalo, Rochester, all the way up to Ogdensburg just got hit with a 25% electric surcharge.

So how many eggs did they get this year and from how many fish? Did they measure the fish (like they show in the SR tour video)? What were the numbers? It'd be so easy to avoid controversy by publishing the numbers. What were the egg sies?

Well, we almost made it 36 hrs without the political banter. I have a dental appointment for a toothache. I hope I just get a filling, and he doesn't pull all my teeth. Of course, he could correct his mistake with a full set of dentures. (At 100 times the cost!)

Absolutely. There are many factors beyond man's control BUT shouldn't those that can be controlled be controlled? Seems to me that there is a lot of empirical proof on Big-O. I'd like to see the statistical anova analysis that this biologist used to rule it out.

Glad we went back to discussing Lamprey control and no political BS. (for at least 24 hrs) Thanx Gator and great articles by dreamsteellie. Hard to paraphrase but I think a very key phrase is "When used appropriately." For those who want to sit back and watch what happens when funding is cut: https://bn.dec.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/lofishboatsurveysummary2024.pdf Two side notes/questions: (1) Have any of you guys caught steelheads with lamprey wounds on them? (2) Will Lampreys go after Atlantics Salmon? (They both are native to the Atlantic Ocean.)

Well, back to the Lampreys: On pg 23 of the 2021 lamprey control report, the Credit River treatment was deferred to 2022 due to the abundance of steelhead noticed in the river. All the CND treatments in 2021 were done in August. https://www.glfc.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2021.pdf In 2022 the Credit River was treated much earlier in July. (Probably no steelhead in the river earlier that year) So the question is why the concern over steelhead? Initially, I thought maybe they didn't want steelhead eating the half dead poisoned Lamprey. The film said that Lake trout once ate juvenile Lamprey which maintained predator-prey balance until commercial fishing depleted the lake Trout numbers and maybe steelhead would do the same. (That thought was wrong.) Reviewing the film again and a little googling reveals the treatments are by highly trained technicians who first measure flows, pH, Oxygen content and measure/observe more of the water to be treated and not by a bunch of "yahoos." They pick sites according to where Lamprey breed and figure the chemical will disperse/dilute enough as it travels downstream, out to the lake, as to not be a threat to other species. They do calculations as to the amount of lampricide to use which is quite evident in all the annual reports that I've previously linked to. The goal of the lampricide program is to kill Lamprey to help restore the Lake Trout to the lakes. The film goes thru somewhat of a timeline for the testing and development of TFM. Development was before the alewife explosion and the introduction of Cohos. (Then Kings then Browns & steelheads.) Further googling "How does Lampricide kill Lampreys" is interesting: TFM is not a Hollywood poison where one foams at the mouth or goes into convulsions. (note in the film the tech wears a gas mask while mixing powder chemicals) One can refer to this article: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8427354/ where I quote: "Exposure to TFM causes marked reductions in tissue glycogen and high energy phosphagens in lamprey and rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) by interfering with oxidative ATP production in the mitochondria." In other words, it attacks the tissues/substances on their gills/respiratory system, and they'll die. Literature mention that sturgeon and rainbows as well as the Lampreys are susceptible due to their gill "configuration." (Only 3 mentioned) Damage is minimized to other specie at treatment time due to concentrations and as only Lamprey plus others that can withstand polluted water are present in the stream. I'm all in favor of Lampricide treatments, not because I care all that much about LTs but because I've personally seen a lot of salmon with Lamprey wounds over the years. It's the Salmon that has made Sportfishing popular and been the most benefit to the Great lakes. I also appreciate the efforts of the scientists and technicians that do the treatments. We can't have a bunch of "yahoos" just throwing chemicals into the water and we can't defer Lamprey control.

Yes, you're right. 2020 is the year the border was closed and no lampricide applied to Lk Ontario and Erie. (Although 6 tribs had been scheduled for each - North & South shores) Closure was from March '20 to Nov '21 for non-essential traffic and many sites deferred in 2021 on US side. https://sealamprey.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2020.pdf Treatments normally done in spring. Numbers shown in 2021 link occurred in July/Aug '21. The Movie & scientists did a great job but I couldn't tell what the small fish were that survived while the lamprey died. They didn't look like juvenile salmonid to me. (I could be wrong) I'd like to know why the CD concern on that trib for steelhead.

Sea Lampreys are not like salmon in that they are not known to return to their natal streams to spawn. Rather than being guided by their sense of "smell" to where they were born or imprinted, they seek out flowing clean streams. Hence, they spread westward thru the Great Lakes thus caused greater damage in Huron & Superior and were first detected there than in Erie. Lampricide treatments are done every 3-5 years by GLFC, across all the lakes. (unlike Champlain where they occur every 2 years by NYSDEC and USF&WS) Ontario, Erie, Huron & Superior are Federal waters bound by treaties. GLFC is a joint venture and supported by both countries. The SR area of the lake is too important to the NY fishery and economy so DEC will protect it. (although they have to fight for state funds also) As to Lampricide treatment in Lake Ontario: In 2021: 8 CD tribs and 3 US tribs were treated. The 3 US were done by NYSDEC in the SR area. Other US tribs were deferred. In 2022: 6 CD and 9 US tribs were treated. In 2023: 0 CD and 4 US tribs were treated. Some of the reasons given for reduced treatment on CD side were low flow in a couple tribs and feared effects on steelhead. https://www.glfc.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2021.pdf https://fr.glfc.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2022.pdf https://lampreycontrol.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2023.pdf If you read through the above links, you'll see CD went "hog-wild" with Lampricide in Superior & Huron. (2 and 3 times what US did.) Lampricide, although very good, is not the silver bullet/cure-all. You can also see the introduction of "Alternative Lamprey Control" that includes traps and migration barriers. On Lake Ontario, they installed and maintain 13 migration barriers on the North shore whereas only 3 on the US. (all on the east end) Some questions. Turning to "Alternative Control" do Lampreys build up some immunity? How effective are the barriers? Does the Lampricide affect steelhead? Regardless, Lamprey control efforts need to be supported. Congress has a "Great Lakes Task Force" that late last month submitted a bill to fund money for the Great Lakes. The NYS members are Tim Kennedy, Nick Langworthy, John Mannion, Joe Morelle and Claudia Tenney. Every state bordering the Great Lakes has members. They need to be contacted along with other representatives in your area to support the fishery.

There was no lampricide treatments on US side of Lake-O in 2020 but there was on the Canadian side. Canada has many more tribs and feeder creeks than US has. CA has over 350 whereas US has a little over 200. (Oswego River has at least 8) US treatment is mostly a federal program that extends over all the Great Lakes. An A1 Lamprey mark is defined as a Lake trout mark that has "no healing; fresh mark; with a definite opening through the skin into muscle." They don't count lesser wounds. According to this GLFC publication for Lake-O: https://www.glfc.org/pubs/pdfs/4.1.3 SL Status_Ontario (Mar 2023).pdf The average adult Lamprey Abundance index for 2020-2023 was 9,600. For 2023 it was 19,000. Back in '85, A1 marks count was 4.0 per 100 LT. For 2020, it was 0.5. In 2023 it was 3.0. It took 25 years to go from 4.0 down to 0.5. Marks on Browns and Salmon are not counted. (I've caught Kings in the last few years, as have many other guys, that have some kind of mark on them.) According to the GLFC documentary "The Fish Thief: a Great Lakes Mystery", The Sea Lamprey thrives & reproduces better in cleaner streams. And they say that is why destruction in Huron & Michigan was initially more severe than in Erie. Note that Lake-O and tribs have been getting cleaner and cleaner every year. It amazes me that some want to sit back and watch while a few fight for a resource for the watchers to enjoy.

2nd is AI.

A single sea lamprey can lay 100,000 eggs: Sea Lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Potential of not treating our streams is not a lesson I want to learn the hard way. Just like some kids play with fire even though their parents told them not to. I guess kids just have to learn...oh well. What's a bunch of 3rd degree burns? oh well. The kid doesn't have to pay the hospital bills...oh well. Kind of hard to pay down debt when you reduce income. 6 figure-plus salaries for 19 yr olds...oh well. Million-dollar photo-ops at super bowl and nascar...oh well.

Thinking we're going to see a lot of 26-29 Lbr's but the money fish will be a 34 in the fall off the SR. Lakers will probably be huge though. Glad you like the puzzles. Have to get past the next snowstorm before I get the boat ready tho.

Very true. Back in the early 80's when there was a real push for corporate out-sourcing, companies shut down their US metal smelting/working and plating operations claiming expense and environmental rules. There was big movement away from metal and wood and towards plastic components in just about everything. Couple years ago I made some "ABU" spinners which were great for Pike. (shows my age) Wire, paint & hooks were US but beads, bodies & blades were not. My son has been carving some really good wood fishing plugs. Unfortunately Balsa doesn't grow in the US.

Fish shaped (as the fins help) first. Torpedoes 2nd.

Again back to fishing: What fishing gear that you use was made in the US? (Note: if the box says "made in US" means the box was made in the US) I know McCoy line is US, Eagle Claw hooks are US. St Croix rods are US. Penn reels (Senators only) are US. What else?

When's the last time your favorite gas station actually ran out of gas? Are you sure that the plastic over the handle didn't just mean the pump needed repair or reprogramming? Have you ever noticed when it's just announced that the price of a barrel is going to go up that the pump price immediately jumps. Yet when it's announced that the price has fallen, it takes a month or more for the pump price to go down? Gov't controls imports. (via tariffs & laws) Gov't can also control exports. i.e. executive orders forbidding selling chips to China, or arms to certain countries etc. There's never been a gov't restriction on oil exports.

Highly documented.! Back to fishing: A gas station in Irondequoit that I frequent, just raised their gas price by $.07/gal.

I would ask on iboats.com

Trad - Are you referring to getting "blown off".....(the lake?)

Wrink - you got it. I misplaced a circle on the first word. Should have been on the fifth space, not the sixth. (i.e hookers) oops, my bad.