GAMBLER

I had a conference call with Adam and Jeremy the other night. They were telling how much bait they had. It's good to see Lake Michigan on the uphill swing.

I will have to look back and see which winter it was but there was a winter that we only got below 37 degrees for a couple of days. I believe it was the 2011-2012 or 2012-2013 winter.

The fish cleaners I see on facebook said the run on the Salmon River was huge this fall for kings and coho.

I will be posting the data after each month goes by and then an overall for the winter. I think the data is easier to see trends in the winter when the water is only a couple degrees difference. Most winters, there is a very short window when temps get below 37 degrees,. Long cold winters (2014 2015) the temps were 33-34 degrees for a long time.

Actually, strong South winds at this time of the year brings warm water in. If the surface has been cooled by cold temps and strong West or NW winds, the South will draw warmer water in. You can see on the graph how the temp dropped and then rebounded. That drop was from the cold snap and winds around opening day of gun season. We had some SW winds and South winds and a warm up and the temps rebounded. Totally different once the water cools and the density of the water are closer together. It's amazing to watch how easy temps change in July and August when the temp is in the 70's on top and 39 on the bottom. The slightest wind changes and temps change drastically. In the winter when temps are very close top to bottom, it takes huge winds to change temps. Constant W / NW winds all winter sometimes sends our intake temps as cold as 33 degrees. Switch that wind around to strong South for a couple days and the temp will rise to 37 degrees or possibly more. Strong NE will also bring warm water in during the dead of winter. It's not as drastic as a strong South but it does change things. I will do graphs for December, January, February, March, April and then an overall as they go by to see how we match up to other winters.

Me too! Hopefully early kings and a good survival for the YOY alewife!

I just ran November of 2019 and the average temp was 47.1 degrees for the month.

Taking our intake temps for the 30 days of November in 2020, 2021 and 2022, I averaged the temp for each day (we take intake temps every 2 hours every day), adding up all the days temps and finding the average temp for each November, I came up with the following data: November 2020 - average temp 49.9 degrees November 2021 - average temp 51.3 degrees November 2022 - average temp 49.7 degrees. I will get this onto a graph when I have time.

Our intake temp has been running about 3-5 degrees colder than last years for the past two weeks.

If this was an issue, the moderators of this site would have taken this post down quickly. Rob, Chad, and Hank do a great job keeping the stuff that doesn't belong on this site off of it. Besides, a crossbow is not a weapon that has to be registered in NYS. Transfer of ownership doesn't need to be documented. Firearm (guns sales are banned on sites because of liability and the legalities of transferring ownership. There shouldn't be an issue with the sale of this crossbow here.

We have been waiting and seeing for over 20 years and still the same results (little tweeks to the program have made things a tiny bit better). It's the wasted resources and effort that could be put into other parts of the fishery and have a positive outcome. With mortality due to alewife diet, the only way to make the program significantly improve is to get rid of alewife. Stocking atlantics year after year with the adult mortality due to alewife diet still not resolved is not a going to change the outcome. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. I'm all for a diverse fishery but putting time and effort into a project that has a giant hurdle that we can't get over is a waste of time. If this program goes on long enough, evolution might change Atlanitcs and they might evolve to withstand eating alewife in Lake O without dying. It might not be my lifetime but we will get there.

They are still 85% of the forage base and the large majority of all trout and salmons diet. Read the link I posted again and pay special attention to this sentence. "unlike other salmonines that may experience impaired reproductive success under low thiamine conditions (e.g. poor egg quality, reduced embryo/fry survival), thiamine deficiency in Atlantic salmon can result in adult mortality" . This has been scientifically proven and there is a lot of information about it out there. Do you not believe that the data on Atlantic salmon mortality is real? The link I posted was directly from the DEC website.

Do they do well? How many reach maturity and spawn multiple times? What is a big atlantic in Cayuga? How many atlantics are caught over 10lbs? Does Cayuga have a more diverse biomass for atlantics? Without alewife and a better food source with low levels of Thiaminase, they would do WAY better. There simply isn't the data on the Fingerlakes Atlantic program like there is on the St. Mary's river and great lakes atlantics. Do the research and you will see Atlantics do not do well with Alewife as a food source. This Clip below is directly from the DEC. It is FACT that the thiamine deficiency is a known problem.

Depending on the shot placement, you may not have a lot of blood. Bullets also make a big difference. I was shooting Powerbelts out of my first muzzleloader and never had a good blood trail. The bullets didnt mushroom out, they fragmented. Every deer I shot with it died in sight so it wasn't a big deal. I now use Hornady FTX or SST bullets and that issue has gone away. Good luck with the recovery!

The trawling data and the stomach collection data shows your statement to be false. The majority of the forage base in Lake Ontario is Alewife. (85% according to the trawling data in the link here) Weideletal_AprilPreyFishSurveyAlewifeAssess2022.pdf (glfc.org) The rest of the species are a drop in the bucket (6% smelt, 4% goby and 4% deep water sculpin) . Lake Ontario salmonoids consume mostly alewife. Lakers and browns eat some gobies but the rest rely on very very heavy alewife heavy diets. Diet and trophic niche space and overlap of Lake Ontario salmonid species using stable isotopes and stomach contents - ScienceDirect. Until this changes, the thiamine issue isn't going anywhere.

Huron doesn’t have many alewife left. More diverse diet = less thiamine deficiency which in turn = less mortality.

I have a question for you that you might be able to answer. Why are most atlantics in rough shape when they are stocked. The majority of Atlantics I have caught over the years have damaged dorsal and pectoral fins? I would think they could get better survival stocking a better product. I was fishing the Douglaston with Jason Franz years ago and the DEC stocked some Atlantics and were were catching them. Every single one we landed had damaged fins.

This is not just a trolling board, but the majority of guys here are big lake guys or both. They also come here and participate on more topics than just Atlantics. The sturgeon restoration program is a great program and is VERY successful. I would love to see a catch and release season for them in my lifetime. I fish the Genny for catfish and walleye with my kid so chances are I will catch one sometime. I have buddies that have caught them fishing catfish many times. The sandy out of state crowd has been here for years for browns. It's great for the entire fishery and the local community. They are not here for the Atlantics.... If the DEC can figure out a strain of Atlantics that survive as well as the original strain and the program is more successful, I am 100% behind bumping up the stockings to make a better fishery. I love how you think I only troll the lake. Little do you know, I have fished along side of you at the Genny a couple times with my spey rod and fly rod over the last 20 years. I also shared a pool with you at the Douglaston on the Salmon River years ago. But hey, I'm just a trolling guy.

If they held kings to 7” (like Atlantic’s)instead of 2-4”, survival would be drastically higher. With natural reproduction, you would see way more returns than Atlantic’s. It’s been proven they have survival issues due to thiamine deficiency. They stock 240,000 Atlantic’s Lake wide and a little bit more coho and coho returns are way better than Atlantic’s. They are a great species but they are a poor investment. You come on a predominately trollers website with like minded people (for the most part) and pound your chest about Atlantic’s time and time again yet contribute nothing else. I find it comical Dave.

Less than 10% survive? Nice try Dave. I really enjoy the one atlantic a year on average. They taste great too. I have been evolving with this fishery since I started in 1983 and didn't give up when the fishery had its down swings.

The returns were dismal on the entire West end of Lake O. Why? My guess would be lack of imprinting (Pen rearing doesn't help much with imprinting only survival rate) and they returned to the Salmon River (the run was awesome according to the reports). I am interested in restoring native species but to dump Atlantics in year after year and have minimal returns is not getting the job done. Atlantics are more prone to Thiamine deficiency than all the other Lake O trout and salmon. As long as there are alewife, Atlantics will struggle to survive. The .04 Atlantics per boat trip is a great asset to the fishery.... How long has this program been going on and it is still not much better than it was a decade ago. The Atlantic program does affect every stakeholder on Lake Ontario. Instead of dumping money and resources into a program this is still spinning its wheels after decades of trying, they could put it into species that we get returns out of. Until the Atlantic survival rate is as good as other species, you are going to get pushback from the majority of Lake O anglers. You will just have to get over it.

Congrats Billy!

You classify a viable fishery a couple hundred fish when 200,000 plus stocked per year with multiple year classes returning at the same time? Just imagine if these fish actually survived as well as the other trout and salmon stocked in Lake Ontario.