bulletbob

I have found very clean powerhead, and purchased it on ebay.. 120 psi each cyl, has carb, flywheel, stator under flywheel all intact.$350 shipped My block is certainly able to be bored, damage not that severe.. I found a shop in auburn that would bore it for $120 which is half what I was quoted elsewhere.. So with the bore, new pistons and rings the cost would be similar to the used powerhead..... however, now I have a ton of spare parts including carb, flywheel stator, timing parts, linkage etc.. guy has close to 5,000 ebay sales and great feedback in selling used marine parts, so I am hopeful... we'll see how this works out... I really want a new 20 hp 4 stroke, but they are bordering 4K with tax and installation, and its just not in the cards financially... I'll post when its running.... [I HOPE!]

So anyway,, i said if my "gut" was wrong I would man up, and admit I was a moron.. Yes, I am a moron.. On the well lit bench it is painfully evident that this motor is pretty much beyond a re ring, reseal.. First off, crank seals were perfect and were a not factor in the poor running as I assumed... Bone dry on the outside of both seals ... Bores looked pretty good initially.. Then under good light, with pistons out,, ugh... NOT good is all I'll say.. Pistons both wasted as well.. So now i am stuck with a brand new set of OEM standard rings which I can't return, and a gasket set on the way I may never use.. block has to be bored, and needs new pistons of course.... sick about this, but its my own fault for jumping the gun, and buying parts on an assumption that as long as the motor was running, and had 90 PSI even that there could not be much damage,,, WRONG!!.... Not sure what I am going to do, but honing the bores and rings won't do it on this motor.. Too much piston wear including some aluminum transfer... whatever,,,, I'll post when I decide which way I am going to go,,,,,

Yes, it is.. Just this past October, I rebuilt the engine in my 2000 jeep Grand cherokee.. Motor developed a bad slap, and after reading about a certain percentage of 4.0 engines from that era having defective pistons, I decide to do an in frame "rebuild" right in my driveway, laying on my back!... Replaced 6 pistons, honed the walls, which were in astounding shape, with the original crosshatch vibrant, replaced rod bearings, which were in mint condition, replaced rear main seal, timing chain and gears, spark plugs etc... Had to have the head pressure checked- $150 Head resurfaced- $150 Pistons pressed onto rods- $150... So thats $450 for what is very little work actually.. it takes all of 20 minutes to put 6 pistons on rods with a press.. same with the "head work".. $300 to check and resurface a head???? And not even a valve job.. I removed the springs myself, lapped the valves, decarboned everything, and installed new stem seals myself... So it cost me over $1000 in parts and machine work to repair my own 6 cyl motor using the cheapest pistons I could find{Silvolite, a decent USA made piston], and buying many of the parts online to save a few bucks. It was worth it, as the jeep is a southern vehicle we bought about 4 years ago,and is pretty clean rust free shape.. Engine runs great with about 55 PSI oil pressure, and might outlive me. So yes I understand, I felt some serious pride, doing an in frame rebuild in the driveway, on my back much of the time, at 69 years old, that turned out very well... I guess though I am disappointed in prices of everything especially labor these days.. I mentioned $300 to pressure test and flatten a head.. To me thats outrageous.. A rebuilt head with new everything is $400.... I stopped at a marine dealer in sayre pa a few week ago.. labor rate $200 an hour.. i mean its getting insane.. It seems no one wants to work and make a good living, they want to become millionaires... Years ago when I was a tech this was the guideline- your weekly salary should be 1/3 of your labor output.. You should make 3 times in labor what you're paid. 1/3 for the house [profit] 1/3 to keep the lights on[operational cost] 1/3 for your salary and benefits... That seems to have gone the way of the dodo.... I guess I am just old and cantankerous, as I spend a lot of time these days shaking my head in disbelief.... anyway, this has been a good conversation, and I will post about how my repair job went.. just need a few nice days to get it done.. Powerhead is off, cyl head too,,ready for disassembly and cleanup.. If the compression doesn't improve much maybe the tighter seal around the crank will improve crankcase pressure enough to keep excess air out and preventing the lean sneeze, and low speed/idle issues... Just don't know if I really want to put the better part of $1000 in a close to 30 YO motor, thats only 30 HP anyway,,, Now I KNOW why there are guys out there buying every junk outboard they can find cheap.. The parts are becoming like gold... thanks to all for a nice conversation.... bob

I was just complaining about prices, and a guy on the Johnson/Evinrude forum said make SURE that I don't use a ball hone or flex hone, ONLY a rigid hone as the other types will follow an out of round bore... I checked prices for that type cyl hone, and they are like $225, for something I'll never use again in my life... Just thought that was interesting.. he kind of made my point for me, while thinking I'm an idiot for not replacing both pistons/ bore job on block/ new reeds/new coils/new CDI/water pump etc, etc.etc.. anyway, I'll post again about this when we get a few more nice days, and I can get this motor finished. We'll see how it goes on this cheap ""rebuild""... bob

Money is a sticking point.. The bores look good, and compression is even though somewhat low at 90... Problem is, its $250 for a tiny little 2 cyl to get bored, I checked at a machine shop, and the only pistons available are .030 over, plus rings.. Pistons $94 EACH,, rings $56 Each .. So with gaskets and peripherals, we are staring $600 + in the face. Keeping the original pistons that look fine, and the NOS- OMC rings I found and bought online, I am so far only into it around $100, with a gasket set I have coming.. I already have a hone here, so I am going to attempt, a VERY light hone, and hope the new rings bring the comp up another 15-20 PSI, and will keep my fingers crossed that my theory that a lot of the lean sneeze/cold start/idle/low speed issues are being caused by bad upper and lower crank seals, which are getting replaced.. If it runs good, all is good, if not, then I will have to reconsider if I really want to spend a lot of money on an engine thats fast approaching 30 years old, by a manufacturer thats out of business.. Yes, it IS an OMC engine, but each time I look at parts lists, I see the the term "obsolete", or the abbreviation NLA.. You can still get parts, but clean used stuff is getting outrageously priced, and clean used motors that run well are also getting nuts... Lots of guys asking $1500 for a clean 25-30 HP remote steer OB thats 30-40 years old... Thats half the price of a new 20 HP Suzuki 4 stroke with controls... At some point in the life of a machine, its time to cut bait, and make a decision... Right now, I am VERY wary of buying used, because there are many people out there that would sell a headache for top dollar, to be rid of it, and then sleep like a baby.. I can't tell you how many times even as a former ASE Master Tech I have been sold a "good running car", or "good running outboard", only to find serious problems the first time I used them in the field.. You can hide a multitude of sins with some chemicals, a quick timing adjustment, heavier oil mix, etc etc... Even us techs are not immune.. These days, I would rather buy something for peanuts that I am unsure of than a "good runner" for top money.. Been burned to many times... So anyway, I have decided to continue my halfass "rebuild" [ rings/hone/seals/cleanup, and see what that gets me... If it doesn't help enough, I might buy new next time... bob

I am not so sure of that... I have a Mac Tools compression tester from my decades of working as an auto tech.. It always served me well, and is very well made.. I know the type of tester you are speaking of, but had never heard that was the only type to be used on a 2 stroke outboard... if you go on Youtube you will see dozens upon dozens of Marine engine technicians using comp gauges with hoses similar to what I use.. I get where you are coming from, and will agree that it would be unwise to trust the readings of a Chinese comp gauge with a flimsy hose, and crap build quality.but my gauge was used professionally for many years, and is a good one. Regardless, this old 30 HP hasn't been right for years, and if the rings, and new crank seals don't help, it gets sold as a parts motor. and I think about a new 4 stroke.. Tired, really tired, of fiddlin fartin' around each and every year with these cantankerous old 2 strokes I own... they are all getting older and less reliable each year, and parts are getting harder to find and more insanely expensive every year as well..bob I

Its not a carb problem.. It has been cleaned, and did not help one bit.. from everything I have read, when these 30HP omc engines are right they should have closer to 130 psi compression..90 psi is just not enough. I did find out I was on the wrong page of the OMC manual.. The spec I saw was ring gap-.005 to .015... Thats for 9.9-15 motors,duh..... the ring gap for 20-30 HP motors is .007 to .017. Thats closer to what I have, and maybe there is less bore wear than I thought.. At this point, I have no recourse except to tear the engine down completely, clean, hone, rering, reseal, and ask the Lord's blessing on my effort.. I;m almost 70, and this motor doesn't need to last another 20 year.. If I can get it to run better another 2 maybe 3 I'd be happy... anyway, when its done, I'll post back and tell how everything went.. thanks for the replies!...bob

well, I guess I found out at least part of the problem with the low compression [90 PSI] on this 30 HP.. I got the OEM OMC standard ring set today in the mail, and went out to check ring end gap... It is over spec.. spec is .005- .015.. I was seeing more like .017 maybe even .018 gap with the new rings... Not sure if those couple thousandths are worth 10 PSI loss or 40 PSI loss.. Not really sure if I should proceed, cross my fingers and hope the new rings and reseal help enough to make it at least a fair runner, or go for a rebore, new pistons etc, which will mean me putting a LOT more money into a 28 year old motor than I really want to, as parts and machine work are just super expensive these days... any thoughts???... bob

I am just starting a hone and re ring job on a 1996 30 Johnson.. Engine runs but starts hard, stumbles at low speed, has a "lean sneeze' at idle and low speeds. Also,smokes like hell while idling.. Runs well above half throttle.. All indications of worn rings/low compression/leaks at crank seals.. Its been this way for a while, but got worse after the impeller melted down last year, engine overheated, blew head gasket and died... Replaced the head gasket, and the engine did start and run, but actually got somewhat worse than it had been.. It shows even compression at 90 PSI each cyl, but 90 PSI is low for this engine I believe,, I think good ones are more like 125-130... I did not see any big digs in the cyl walls when I had the engine open last year to replace the gasket, and am hoping a re ring /hone/ clean up/reseal will bring the compression up enough to make the engine run better.. I REALLY don't want to get into boring/new bearings/new pistons etc, because thats when I have to start thinking about just ditching the motor... .. So anyway here's my question.. Should I be at least mildly optimistic that there is 90 PSI -even on both cyls? ,that this could indicate this engine will respond well to new rings/seal/hone ?.. It would seem to me if there were major damage to the bores or block that this engine would not run at all and have actually much lower compression than it does.. i am going to do the re ring, bought the parts, and am committed to it, but thats about as far as I want to go.. I don't want to put $1000 in new pistons, block rebore etc... I have read horror stories where guys have put rings in and compression was not improved at all.. Don't see how that could be if it was done right, but I have seen many guys say just re ringing a 2 cycle outboard rarely helps.. Kind of scary.. other guys say that they put rings and seals in and had a like new engine... Right now I am just hoping for the best, and could use some encouraging words from someone thats been there on a 2 stroke rebuild... bob

Both still available..

Think about something you just wrote.. Its correct and very much in line with what I said ..In ANY fishery, the first sign of too much pressure is not a lack of numbers of fish typically.. Its a lack of BIG fish... Same thing time and time again throughout my lifetime I have seen it... Harder each year to get keepers, because as soon as they reach legal size they are taken... Thats all due to pressure... The Crappie minimum size is now 10 inches.. problem is, in a LOT of lakes there are no or very very few 10 inch Crappies left.. I know 2 lakes not too far from me that are loaded with Crappies... You can catch 100 on a good day.. however, you won't find even one over 7 inches. Biggest one I have caught personally in the last 5 or more years has been 9 inches.. I know some here will poo poo the idea, but in my opinion, panfish are over exploited in NY state these days.. Many of us really don't have a taste for greasy dark Alwewife stuffed trout from lakes, and prefer eating white mild panfish.. Theres a reason guys will tell you exactly where they caught that 15 lb Brown, what speed, how deep, lure type and pattern, water temp and time of day.. Yet ask where they caught that mess of Perch, Crappies, or these days even big Bluegills, and you'll get blank stares and icy silence.. Times have changed.... bob

Good points.. However, remember, there are a lot more people today than 25 years ago, and the fresh water fisheries today are under intense pressure.. Boats, electronics, information access, leisure time, all are light years ahead of just a few years ago... the fish are getting hit harder than ever with not many places they can retreat to.. I get it, people want to eat fish, however wild yellow perch, crappies etc from inland lakes are NOT the answer.. They just can't be replaced as fast as they are caught and eaten.. If we can fish out the oceans, [and for many species we HAVE], we can fish out lakes and rivers,, very easily... aquaculture is really the only way to feed the masses if they want fish, not commercial exploitation of very finite lakes.. They farm raise catfish, stripers, tilapia, shrimp, salmon, trout, geez, you would think plain old yellow perch would be a breeze... I don't have the answer to the dilemma, I'm not that bright, but commercial fishing for fresh water fish, is NOT the answer, unless its for something like the grass and bighead carb that are devastating the mid west and heading further east each day... All I know is this- there are a LOT of guys that would go to a small lake with only 50 big perch left, and go and catch all 50 If they had the ability to do so, and sleep like a baby that night and never give it another thought.. We are dealing with human nature here, and I believe what is written in God's Word- "There is none that is righteous, no not one". I wish we could let honor, civility, and respect for others dictate what we kill and eat, but thats not possible these days. There are too many that care only for themselves, and will take all they can get no matter what its is, and that includes natural resources, including fish and game.. I have seen it time and time and time again in my 69 years. bob

Agree on the 50 fish limit.. I think a limit of 15 or 20 tops is more than generous enough... Commercial fishing for them????... infuriating to say the least....

I like to fish as much as anyone, but really, tying a balloon to a perch, to track the school??.. I get it, heard of it being done, but does one REALLY need the fish that badly??.. I don't approach my fishing like that.. If I can catch a half dozen perch, maybe the same amount of nice size sunnies, and few bonus bass [that I throw back], thats more than enough meat, decent enough action, and I consider it a worthwhile day... Maybe its just me, but I don't need the fish that bad,,,, There's always another day.... bob

I don't mind tinkering at all.. Its what I do... i do understand what you guys are saying however. Right now, can't see swinging 3K + even though thats a good price for a 20 HP 4 stroke with controls.. Another really odd thing I have found is this- Its often cheaper to buy an entire boat/motor trailer than just the engine... i have seen a LOT of guys buy an entire rig and then sell or just give away the boat... I have seen some some pretty good deals at times, and usually when the motor is on the boat you can hear it run... I am keeping my eyes open at this time as I decide which way to go.. Another option is this- Buy cheap entire gasket set on ebay/amazon for REAL cheap, like 30 bucks... Buy rings same place. around $ 70-80 for both pistons.... Now at around $125 or less, I can Hone/ re ring/ reseal the engine real cheap and hope for the best.. I have had pretty decent luck with cheap ebay parts on all my cars/mowers/chain saws/ outboards etc.. Just last year i used a Chinese head gasket on this 30 HP, and it was fine, looked 100% OEM to me.. been using ebay wheel bearings/brakes/engine parts/starters/alternators for many years, and they have lasted as long as anything I even bought at NAPA/Autozone/Advance at about 1/3 to 1/2 the price... So I dunno, cheaping out big time and hoping for the best is another possibility.... anyway, its been an interesting discussion, and I'll post more about what I do if anyone cares to read it..... bob

I could go to a 20 no problem.. Boat is only a 14 root aluminum, although it is a "heavy" aluminum boat.. Remote steer with side console.. Only motors I can find are typically 30 HP long shaft with remote steer.. a 20 or 25 is better suited, but they are TOUGH to find in remote steer/electric start and when you do find a clean used one, sellers know they are pretty rare, and want a fortune.. A clean 50 or 70 2 stroke is cheaper than a clean 20 or 25 remote steer long shaft... Anyway, not sure what I am going to do.. I might just buy a 9.9 or 15 HP tiller, forget about the side console for now, until I can find a reasonably priced 25 remote somewhere,. Prices are just really crazy new . used parts, labor , everything.. I was at a boat dealer the other day looking for parts, $200 an hour for labor, but hey ONLY $179.95 an hour for friends and family!.. What a deal!.. Right there on a big sign.. This was in Sayre Pa... When I rebuilt my Grand Cherokee engine in Oct. - $150 to check the head, make sure it had no cracks $150 to plane the head.. $150 to press 6 new pistons onto the old connecting rods.. So $450 for what is NOT much labor if you know what these procedures entail.. This is about 1 1/2 hours labor at most. I had to resurface the valves, install new valve seals myself.. That would have been another $300-400 or so.. A factory rebuilt head was only $400.... Its just the way things are now, labor is even worse than parts.. Soon no one will be able to afford fixing anything, and will be forced to buy new... bob

Prices are nuts.. $250 to bore the block, pistons are about $175 each with rings, and thats without a gasket set which is a couple hundred bucks, unless I get chinese ones... Probably $800 in parts, if I do everything myself, not including plugs, solvents, gasket sealer, penetrating oil, expendables such as sandpaper, etc... No wonder guys are always looking for good used outboards... Might also go with a known good power head... Clean one on ebay with 120 psi each hole.. I can't tell you how many times I have been through this.. I lament each and every good running OB motor I ever sold for way too little money years ago.. Past 3 or 4 motors i have bought have crapped out in a few years of very easy use, and good care... Like I said, most guys know when its time to get out of a motor, and as they say - "there's an ass for every seat"... bob

I have done the decarb, cyl soak, "free the rings" deal.. Thats not the problem... At 90 PSI on both cyls, its just worn, I have known it for several years.. Plus I overheated it last year when the water pump failed and melted into a big rubber blob,, I blew the head gasket, replaced it and the pump, and it did run afterwards, but the "tiredness" was even more pronounced.. Its just time.. I really don't think it needs more than a hone, rings and new crank seals, as the bores looked pretty decent last year when I had the head off.. I have had several of these 2 cyl OMC 2 strokes, and from my experience, they want 120 PSI or more to run really well.. Once they get below 100 psi, they start hard, stall when cold, and sneeze like hell at low speed... Others may have had better experience, but I have owned 2 30's, as well as a 28SPL, and they stated getting balky as the compression dropped below a certain point... I would buy a clean used one, but guys are asking $1200-$1500 for 25 YO 25 or 30 HP OMC 2 strokes, and i have not had much luck with OB engines at that age.. I buy one for a grand or close, and a year or two later its pretty much at lifes end... Most guys sell OB engines when they start getting tired and unreliable.. Not much need to dump a good running dependable OB motor for most boaters.. Not going to trust another old motor, this time maybe I will simply try rebuilding it myself ..bob