King Davy

Brown trout and Atlantic salmon live together in many places especially in Europe. It’s been hundreds of years to where we had a sustainable population of Atlantic salmon in Lake Ontario when of course there were no brown trout. At least a large population like we have today. Brown trout are very aggressive but that includes them predating on their own. i think for me anyway, the focus is having a stream like Irondequoit that in 2025 with all the climate issues we’ve seen is pristine enough to host trout to wild stages. There is a fishable population of brown trout in the creek. I have friends who have spectacular days catching these fish 12 months a year.. These folks are excellent anglers and conservationists. They use only barbless hooks handle the fish with care keep them wet and enjoy the fact these fish were born and thrive in this stream. And they are leaders in taking care of the habitat which is key to the fish thriving. Nature is doing its thing in this creek as it did 100’s of years ago. Even though it runs through suburban Monroe county.

Hey Brian. I’m not aware of any nose tags that the feds did. We clipped the A Salmon up at the ADK hatchery when they were trying to raise them in pens. Mike last year had us on fish diary’s now strictly on collecting scale samples. there are wild brown trout from Ellison all the way to fishers. We electro fished those spots and found lots of fish. The avg fish is in that 6 to 10 inch range with a couple different year classes. Some bigger ones. Easy to tell the wild from stocked. the stream is extremely healthy. Plenty of bugs and small bait fish. Brown trout are the mist aggressive trout species in these higher up areas. That’s why you don’t introduce browns into streams with brook trout. Anyway I know DEC is happy with how the Atlantic Salmon has started to contribute to the lake and trib fishery.

So the target was to Bring Atlantic Salmon stocking up to 250k. They’ve fallen short of that target by 100k. Now in 2026 with the federal hatcheries out of play and DEC ended their relationship with Tunison at Cornell I don’t think they will reach this ultimate goal. DEC’s focus has been to establish an Atlantic Salmon sport fishery over a wild stock and they’ve been relatively successful. I saw a report from a charter capt. who caught 7 atlantics today up to 15 pounds. This big fish jumped 7 times and screamed all over the lake. Many are caught in the fall right through winter in our local tributaries. Lindsay and I have landed several this year and last and collected data for Mike C. I think the effort is two fold. 1 continue to improving Atlantic Salmon as a sport fishery and if they can get enough fish work on a restoration project. I no longer sit on the stakeholder group (did from 2000-2022) but what I know is they won’t switch stocking Atlantic Salmon to Irondequoit and stop at the Oak. Sandy, South Sandy and the Salmon river. DEC is heavily involved with cold water conservation groups like TU to restore native species all over the state. Notably Brook trout in the Adirondack’s Catskills and Tug Hill. In a couple weeks TU and several other organizations are on a huge project to put up new regulation signage on 400 ponds in the ADK’s as we partner to restore wild Brook trout to all these ponds. So in conjunction with several organizations we have 100’s of efforts going on in the state to bolster wild fish. Back in the 80’s when they did stock Atlantics in Irondequoit we did have fish return in the summer and I caught some. They were magnificent. But back then total stocking was 50 or 60k total throughout the whole lake. We wouldn’t have the pacific fishery we have if it wasn’t for natural reproduction. But chinooks have a huge advantage of only needing to be in a stream for a few months after hatching. Bottom line DEC and many federal groups, USF&W, USGS, and Sea Grant along with organizations like stakeholder lake and trib groups are working on maintaining what we have and doing the work and research to bring back what we used to have even on a smaller scale. .

Longline I realize I didn’t address your other questions from before. So here is my take. Chinook salmon, lake browns and steelhead all swim through those same waters. Why wouldn’t you think an Atlantic Salmon wouldn’t couldn’t make the same trek? Those bay waters are warm when the other species enter and they don’t nearly have except brown trout the tolerance to warmer waters as Atlantic Salmon. Probably the greatest testament to Irondequoit as a true natel south shore stream is the wild steelhead found up river in cool areas. Like Atlantic Salmon they spend over a year in a river before migrating to open water. You can find these juveniles all summer long eating bugs up there. Now how many make it to the lake and return as an adult is of course unknown. But the fact that they survive to smolt to where they will migrate northward to open Lake Ontario is a reality.

As far as naming bodies of water in publication I’ve written and published two books on Lindsay’s and my adventures and several chapters are on rivers near by and none have been named. Of course fishing rivers in Alaska, Northern Canada and out west like the Kenai, Naknek, Skeena Madison etc aren’t much of a secret.

HB2 other than the fall salmon crowd I have yet to see a steelhead on a stringer in any of the waters I fish from Maxwell to the Erie tribs. AND I’m out there several times a week from fall through May. And I would hope the inshore lake trollers are enjoying the crazy good brown trout fishery. I’m sure impacted by the one brown trout limit from three years ago. I personally would never be a C&R only angler. I grew up in a hunting fishing trapping family and would always fight to preserve the Heritage of hunting and fishing where you get to choose to harvest your catch as long as it’s within the law. I don’t kill trout or salmon cause I don’t care for the taste of them and so as I was taught by my grandfather and father you don’t kill what you don’t intend to eat. once the salmon crowd moves on there is a whole different class of angler shows up. Lots of them for sure but way more are actually fishing then what you may witness from September to Columbus Day.

Longline we are talking about way up in the natel areas of Irondequoit. Not anywhere near the bay. And we all agree if a downed tree is a navigation hazard up in pittsford or East Rochester or Penfield it’s needs to be moved but not necessarily removed. There are solid populations of wild trout up there. South sandy is now a place they stock salmon again. Back in the 90’s when they stocked there they had to swim a warm estuary and Sandy ponds and we caught salmon up to 20 pounds in June and July. So this year DEC because they have no room in any of their hatcheries are providing 4k Atlantic salmon to the powder mill hatchery to raise and release as a first step. I haven’t been by there yet to see if they have them. Not sure if they are federal fish or from the state hatchery in the Adirondaks. And now Sea Grant has taken up the work on Atlantic Salmon as they have sturgeon and other native species in the Great Lakes.

I don’t know a single fly angler who would kill an Atlantic salmon in a river.

I don’t think Mike C has enough data yet to make a call in the strains. Sebago’s have been successful and yet TBD on the TT. What many people don’t understand about Atlantic salmon is their temperature tolerance is in the high 70’s. The Bay is deep enough for thermal relief for them to get into the stream and like their pacific cousins can swim from the lake to Penfield or even higher in a day. our Seth Geeen TU group is now working with the towns and the county parks in a “wood is good” program to leave woody debris in the creek. Irondequoit has more canopy and more spring leakage than any other stream in our area. Our TU group will also be doing a thermal relief study in the dead of summer to find these high concentrations of thermal breaks in the stream thus helping up identify opportunities for rehabbing the stream to improve spawning habitat. This is the last year DEC is stocking brown trout in the upper reaches of Irondequoit creek. We work with them to not put stocked fish over wild and we’ve found a nice healthy population of wild trout from Penfield to Fishers.

That is my wife Lindsay is the angler in the picture. We’ve caught several Atlantic Salmon in the tribs and have been providing data to Mike Connerton at Cape Vincent research station for DEC. And now working with Stacy Furgal with Sea Grant on salmon restoration activities. The Lake Ontario fish the last couple years have come from the Vermont hatchery but according to DEC this is the last year of that supply chain. In a meeting with Hurst last Sept he told our TU group that the Feds price per fish wasn’t in their budget. I may be wrong but up to this point we only achieved 150k smolts when the ultimate target was 200 to 250k. the Adirondak hatchey had been the primary supplier of Atlantic Salmon to both LO and the finger lakes. They don’t have the capacity to raise the LO stockings to the aforementioned target. As mentioned catch rates are up on both the lake and tribs. But that momentum will fizzle out if we can’t reach target goals. We’ve been working with region 8 to look at successful natural reproduction of both brown trout and steelhead in Irondequoit creek. Last year helping them electro shock several sites in Irondequoit from Penfield to Fishers we found highly sustainable schools of wild brown trout. Stakeholders have been asking DEC to consider Irondequoit as a salmon stocking site again along with south sandy, the salmon river, Sandy in Region 8 and the Oak. While natural repo surely won’t create a sustainable sport fishery we could actually achieve the beginning of wild Atlantic Salmon in a south shore stream since the early 1800’s. Lots of Atlantic salmon being caught from Oswego to Henderson this spring. Suggesting the Salmon River and South Sandy stockings are starting to have an impact on the lake fishery. But most of that success stems from the increased stockings. Hopefully DEC can find an avenue to maintain the current stocking levels and reach their over all goal of 200k plus.

My boat was parked next to your grandfathers. Ed was a great guy. Terrific to hear his gear is still catching fish.

Brian I don’t that is happening because truthfully I’d don’t think they have a better answer than what has been simmering on this thread. So now DEC has jumped into the Ancestry game. Building a data base of genealogy for salmon and trout species. The one caveat to that is it will take years of collective data to accurately form predictions on one heritage or another having greater say growth tendencies. I believe DEC had another banner year of seining on the salmon river. Not sure when the results get broadcast but once again the story could be another 8 to 10 million fry successfully hatched. I have a good friend former DEC guy for over 25 years who still shows up to help the guys from Cortland office do the sampling and he said there was a ton of Wild chinooks swimming out of the river. I fished the river in April and every step you took you were moving baby chinooks out of the way. Right now the Lake appears to be in balance simply because all those teens to low 20’s seem to have perfect body shape. No snakey looking fish. I know everyone is thankful for that. The Ferc license for the salmon river I think took place in 1996 or 1998. That started the emergence of large quantities of wild fish. And you had the 50 percent cut still in effect from 1993. Therefore the smaller population of stocked salmon had a buffet of bait to themselves. One of my thoughts is that wild salmon just simply don’t grow as fast. They don’t get a quick start being fed in a hatchey. One would argue yeah but we have 800k to 1m stocked fish. There should be plenty of bigger fish. But it is also possible that the hatchery is spawning wild stocks who still carry the slower growth faster maturing hormones. Head scratcher for sure.

Gator having worked with DEC folks the past 30 years, I know they read these web sites to see what is going on I’ve never known any of them to put in their two cents. There is a liability for them to jump on and start tossing around their thoughts. And while a guy like Tom may have some realistic even accurate takes, if he can’t prove them 100% he can’t risk telling the world what might or might not be true. In the world of science and I know some on this sight are in science type jobs, you have to have proved a theory to put it out to the masses. Visit the hatchery, see if you can get some of his time and talk to him. I would also suggest going to the egg take and see for yourself how it’s run before making assumptions on how they do it. It’s a hell of an undertaking.

I’ve read through this entire thread. I’m wondering how many of you have visited the hatchery during the egg take? I’ve been several times. I am amazed at how hatchery manager Tom orchestrates the entire process. Usually 8 to 12 techs are on the floor during the operation. One thing Tom started when he took over was to test sperm before it was distributed over the eggs. Because many of the males are duds. This testing has greatly increased the eye up success of the spawning season. The fish slide into the spawn room from an elevator lift. They are separated males from females. The males are in a water tank and are grabbed out by several techs. They absolutely don’t just grab smaller fish. Tom does the slitting of the females and he can tell immediately if a hen has healthy eggs or not. Some don’t make the cut. Many of the fish after being spawned end up on the DNA table to get scale and tissue samples so DEC can track their heritage. I witnessed many 20 pound plus fish giving up DNA samples all day. I’ve watched as the techs hold the males over a tray of eggs. They do mix down from both big and smaller males. When I’ve been there I’ve not seen too many jacks in the mix. Take the time to visit the hatchey this summer and ask to meet with Tom. He is a celebrated fish culturist. Pick his brain since he is one of the top scientists with DEC. I know he has invited guests to the spawn floor. I know of one very critical stakeholder who got his shot at being down there. He changed his tune 180 degrees after experiencing the workout those folks get. The eggs get taken usually around Columbus Day only when water temps are just right which they have to be under 60 degrees. And once the fish are ripe you have to get it done. It’s not like you can sort through 20 or 30k fish in the raceway in a matter of the 48 to 72 hours you have to complete this. Back in the day when I had an international organization of anglers and we held a conference in Canada with DEC and the MNR there was opinions that the lake was carrying over 30 million kings due to the nearly 70 % estimated wild stocks in the system from both the Canada and US waters. Of course there is no way to know for sure but formula’s on carrying capacity from trawls to what may be eating forage put the number of fish far far greater then what is being stocked. As nearly 30 years of fishing Alaska I can tell you the days of 50 and 60 pound kings are over and have been for nearly 20 years. The last 40 pound king I caught there was in 2005. Will there be one or two around sure, but the king salmon fishing in Alaska and the NW has crashed. Yes some rivers will still get decent runs in Bristol Bay but the Diamond of king fishing the Kenai is gone. I truly doubt there would be any advantage to try and add those mediocre size king eggs from the pacific to the GL, I get a feed on the fishing from Michigan every week. This weeks report talked about small kings being caught out of every port that was famous for king fishing. At one point when their forage base was over stressed they cut stocking by 80%. Grew some bigger kings increased stocking and are back to better fishing for medium size fish. And I don’t think it could ever be just genetics. I would agree after 50 years of managing the fishery the fish genetics have shifted. Bait up and down. Some years unhealthy bait due to things like polar vortex. Then huge climate change shifts. Where once I could be on a trout stream mid July in cool water fishing through a hail storm of a sulfer hatch those days don’t exist anymore. Or rarely. In land trout fishing is over by mid June due to low warm water. i think it’s healthy to always chase the answers of “What Happened, How Come, What If” But talk to guys like Tom at the salmon river hatchery and other fishery scientists to see what they think since they are in the fish growing business

Yeah I know the hatchery product has been suspect at times. I helped clip them spring of 2022 and it was so cold in March in the tank room there was five inches of ice on the tank pipes. We had to bring propane heaters in to thaw out our hands about every 10 minutes. Tough environment to raise these fish in. Yet the ones I catch and see in the finger lakes are great fish. Hopefully the Federal product will be much more consistent.

Gambler did it look like the fins may have been clipped. The adult fish being caught now are from the ADK hatchery and all LO fish were clipped adapose and or both Adapose and a vent clip. ( those raised in pens). Now all the LO fish are out of VT. DEC has brokered a management plan with Federal hatcheries to obtain Salar hopefully in greater numbers. I heard the lake creel census showed an increase in landlocks caught . I know of a couple captains out of Oswego who’ve never had the opportunity to check in with the creel boat who’ve caught dozens of salar. The trib creel census showed a high catch in our Sandy creek and Oak orchard. So it would seem they are becoming a part of the targets one can hope/expect to catch both on the Lake and tribs.

Fish was down 101 feet in 41 degree water. Deepest and coldest I’ve ever caught one on the lake. Also caught a laker WITH and adipose fin. So could have been a wild. Always fun out west.

Yeah old Marge is passed and her sons haven’t kept up the Marina. So we dock next door. I started trolling the lake in 1971, started guiding in 1979 through 2001. We didn’t have all this social media stuff back in those days. My only claim to fame back in the day was writing for the original Great Lakes fishermen mag on their staff. We generated lots of great information on catching trout and salmon in the Great Lakes. The fish are still in the same places, and Gratson and I still laugh all day long and catch fish.

Over 40 years fishing the Wilson area in the Spring 30 of it with great friend Gratson and his son new Capt Collin, and daughter Meg. Friday was a 30 bite start, Saturday we went looking for bigger fish and the bite was slower from 300 feet into the shallower depths. Everything from Kings, Coho’s, Lakers and an Atlantic salmon taken 100 foot down in cold water. Spoons flies and meat all took fish.

Honestly Rick I simply called the DEC and asked. I doubt they’ll publicly share the actual comments and expose people’s personal email addresses.

Fern Driftwood it’s all good. I’m sure the future will be bright with us all rowing together to make the entire fishery as world class as it is today

As far as the regs making steelhead fishing better I totally disagree. Before the die off in 2014 from the late 1990’ steelhead were getting hammered on both the lake and tribs due to the fact the 1993 salmon stocking reduction put way more pressure on rainbows. And much tougher king fishing. The reg change in 2004 steelhead fishing right up to the 2014/2015 die off was spectacular, and I can’t speak for others but in that time frame I had four legitimate 20 pound plus fish three out of the Genny. Since the die off we also have bait fish issues and as king salmon sizes have dropped since that 2010 time frame so have the steelhead. But with the regs we now see many more year classes of fish in one season. I will say since the late 90’s serious trib anglers stopped killing steelhead. Trib anglers today don’t harvest nearly as many fish as 20 years ago. Including brown trout and even king salmon. The census results have painted that picture for years. Trib anglers want to manage that fishery much differently than the lake anglers. There is nothing wrong with that. As much as you want to I can tell you a majority of the folks I know that fish the LO tribs have never blamed poor fishing on the lake anglers killing all the fish. They focus on how those fish are treated in rivers from September through the following May. And look to regulate accordingly. Last thing I’ll say is this. Where ever you fish, open lake, LO tribs, inland tribs (which are now open year round)….. have a safe fun and successful season what ever that may be to all who have the passion to be fishermen.

Brian you seem so paranoid about TU. I know how the comment tally ended up. Number one there wasn’t nearly as many comments from any particular group as you seem to imagine. I have two theory’s why DEC made a reg change on the lake. I also sat on the bi-national stakeholder group and in listening to MNR and DEC there were/are routinely looking to have standard regs including creel limits. At the time the Canadians had recently dropped their steelhead lake creel to two. The second factor that I know was discussed internally between mangers was the original architected plan that Bill Pearce put together back in the 60’s. I know because one of my very good friends working for DEC at the time helped bring that to the discussion. King and Coho salmon along with brown trout and lake trout were to be the staple fish for the lake, and steelhead were the icing on the cake. Since steelhead spend as much if not more months in a tributary and Bill and his team of biologists and managers stated that steelhead would be the trib staple and the other fish icing on the cake since their river presence was far more limited. So maybe that’s why they made the change.

We are once again going to try and find a place to raise steelhead on the Genny. There is a keen interest from fishermen to do so. Hopefully we can work something out with a location to house the pens. DEC supports this 100% and will provide the materials to build them. And fisherman from all interests have volunteered to take care of them.