King Davy

My boat was parked next to your grandfathers. Ed was a great guy. Terrific to hear his gear is still catching fish.

Brian I don’t that is happening because truthfully I’d don’t think they have a better answer than what has been simmering on this thread. So now DEC has jumped into the Ancestry game. Building a data base of genealogy for salmon and trout species. The one caveat to that is it will take years of collective data to accurately form predictions on one heritage or another having greater say growth tendencies. I believe DEC had another banner year of seining on the salmon river. Not sure when the results get broadcast but once again the story could be another 8 to 10 million fry successfully hatched. I have a good friend former DEC guy for over 25 years who still shows up to help the guys from Cortland office do the sampling and he said there was a ton of Wild chinooks swimming out of the river. I fished the river in April and every step you took you were moving baby chinooks out of the way. Right now the Lake appears to be in balance simply because all those teens to low 20’s seem to have perfect body shape. No snakey looking fish. I know everyone is thankful for that. The Ferc license for the salmon river I think took place in 1996 or 1998. That started the emergence of large quantities of wild fish. And you had the 50 percent cut still in effect from 1993. Therefore the smaller population of stocked salmon had a buffet of bait to themselves. One of my thoughts is that wild salmon just simply don’t grow as fast. They don’t get a quick start being fed in a hatchey. One would argue yeah but we have 800k to 1m stocked fish. There should be plenty of bigger fish. But it is also possible that the hatchery is spawning wild stocks who still carry the slower growth faster maturing hormones. Head scratcher for sure.

Gator having worked with DEC folks the past 30 years, I know they read these web sites to see what is going on I’ve never known any of them to put in their two cents. There is a liability for them to jump on and start tossing around their thoughts. And while a guy like Tom may have some realistic even accurate takes, if he can’t prove them 100% he can’t risk telling the world what might or might not be true. In the world of science and I know some on this sight are in science type jobs, you have to have proved a theory to put it out to the masses. Visit the hatchery, see if you can get some of his time and talk to him. I would also suggest going to the egg take and see for yourself how it’s run before making assumptions on how they do it. It’s a hell of an undertaking.

I’ve read through this entire thread. I’m wondering how many of you have visited the hatchery during the egg take? I’ve been several times. I am amazed at how hatchery manager Tom orchestrates the entire process. Usually 8 to 12 techs are on the floor during the operation. One thing Tom started when he took over was to test sperm before it was distributed over the eggs. Because many of the males are duds. This testing has greatly increased the eye up success of the spawning season. The fish slide into the spawn room from an elevator lift. They are separated males from females. The males are in a water tank and are grabbed out by several techs. They absolutely don’t just grab smaller fish. Tom does the slitting of the females and he can tell immediately if a hen has healthy eggs or not. Some don’t make the cut. Many of the fish after being spawned end up on the DNA table to get scale and tissue samples so DEC can track their heritage. I witnessed many 20 pound plus fish giving up DNA samples all day. I’ve watched as the techs hold the males over a tray of eggs. They do mix down from both big and smaller males. When I’ve been there I’ve not seen too many jacks in the mix. Take the time to visit the hatchey this summer and ask to meet with Tom. He is a celebrated fish culturist. Pick his brain since he is one of the top scientists with DEC. I know he has invited guests to the spawn floor. I know of one very critical stakeholder who got his shot at being down there. He changed his tune 180 degrees after experiencing the workout those folks get. The eggs get taken usually around Columbus Day only when water temps are just right which they have to be under 60 degrees. And once the fish are ripe you have to get it done. It’s not like you can sort through 20 or 30k fish in the raceway in a matter of the 48 to 72 hours you have to complete this. Back in the day when I had an international organization of anglers and we held a conference in Canada with DEC and the MNR there was opinions that the lake was carrying over 30 million kings due to the nearly 70 % estimated wild stocks in the system from both the Canada and US waters. Of course there is no way to know for sure but formula’s on carrying capacity from trawls to what may be eating forage put the number of fish far far greater then what is being stocked. As nearly 30 years of fishing Alaska I can tell you the days of 50 and 60 pound kings are over and have been for nearly 20 years. The last 40 pound king I caught there was in 2005. Will there be one or two around sure, but the king salmon fishing in Alaska and the NW has crashed. Yes some rivers will still get decent runs in Bristol Bay but the Diamond of king fishing the Kenai is gone. I truly doubt there would be any advantage to try and add those mediocre size king eggs from the pacific to the GL, I get a feed on the fishing from Michigan every week. This weeks report talked about small kings being caught out of every port that was famous for king fishing. At one point when their forage base was over stressed they cut stocking by 80%. Grew some bigger kings increased stocking and are back to better fishing for medium size fish. And I don’t think it could ever be just genetics. I would agree after 50 years of managing the fishery the fish genetics have shifted. Bait up and down. Some years unhealthy bait due to things like polar vortex. Then huge climate change shifts. Where once I could be on a trout stream mid July in cool water fishing through a hail storm of a sulfer hatch those days don’t exist anymore. Or rarely. In land trout fishing is over by mid June due to low warm water. i think it’s healthy to always chase the answers of “What Happened, How Come, What If” But talk to guys like Tom at the salmon river hatchery and other fishery scientists to see what they think since they are in the fish growing business

Yeah I know the hatchery product has been suspect at times. I helped clip them spring of 2022 and it was so cold in March in the tank room there was five inches of ice on the tank pipes. We had to bring propane heaters in to thaw out our hands about every 10 minutes. Tough environment to raise these fish in. Yet the ones I catch and see in the finger lakes are great fish. Hopefully the Federal product will be much more consistent.

Gambler did it look like the fins may have been clipped. The adult fish being caught now are from the ADK hatchery and all LO fish were clipped adapose and or both Adapose and a vent clip. ( those raised in pens). Now all the LO fish are out of VT. DEC has brokered a management plan with Federal hatcheries to obtain Salar hopefully in greater numbers. I heard the lake creel census showed an increase in landlocks caught . I know of a couple captains out of Oswego who’ve never had the opportunity to check in with the creel boat who’ve caught dozens of salar. The trib creel census showed a high catch in our Sandy creek and Oak orchard. So it would seem they are becoming a part of the targets one can hope/expect to catch both on the Lake and tribs.

Fish was down 101 feet in 41 degree water. Deepest and coldest I’ve ever caught one on the lake. Also caught a laker WITH and adipose fin. So could have been a wild. Always fun out west.

Yeah old Marge is passed and her sons haven’t kept up the Marina. So we dock next door. I started trolling the lake in 1971, started guiding in 1979 through 2001. We didn’t have all this social media stuff back in those days. My only claim to fame back in the day was writing for the original Great Lakes fishermen mag on their staff. We generated lots of great information on catching trout and salmon in the Great Lakes. The fish are still in the same places, and Gratson and I still laugh all day long and catch fish.

Over 40 years fishing the Wilson area in the Spring 30 of it with great friend Gratson and his son new Capt Collin, and daughter Meg. Friday was a 30 bite start, Saturday we went looking for bigger fish and the bite was slower from 300 feet into the shallower depths. Everything from Kings, Coho’s, Lakers and an Atlantic salmon taken 100 foot down in cold water. Spoons flies and meat all took fish.

Honestly Rick I simply called the DEC and asked. I doubt they’ll publicly share the actual comments and expose people’s personal email addresses.

Fern Driftwood it’s all good. I’m sure the future will be bright with us all rowing together to make the entire fishery as world class as it is today

As far as the regs making steelhead fishing better I totally disagree. Before the die off in 2014 from the late 1990’ steelhead were getting hammered on both the lake and tribs due to the fact the 1993 salmon stocking reduction put way more pressure on rainbows. And much tougher king fishing. The reg change in 2004 steelhead fishing right up to the 2014/2015 die off was spectacular, and I can’t speak for others but in that time frame I had four legitimate 20 pound plus fish three out of the Genny. Since the die off we also have bait fish issues and as king salmon sizes have dropped since that 2010 time frame so have the steelhead. But with the regs we now see many more year classes of fish in one season. I will say since the late 90’s serious trib anglers stopped killing steelhead. Trib anglers today don’t harvest nearly as many fish as 20 years ago. Including brown trout and even king salmon. The census results have painted that picture for years. Trib anglers want to manage that fishery much differently than the lake anglers. There is nothing wrong with that. As much as you want to I can tell you a majority of the folks I know that fish the LO tribs have never blamed poor fishing on the lake anglers killing all the fish. They focus on how those fish are treated in rivers from September through the following May. And look to regulate accordingly. Last thing I’ll say is this. Where ever you fish, open lake, LO tribs, inland tribs (which are now open year round)….. have a safe fun and successful season what ever that may be to all who have the passion to be fishermen.

Brian you seem so paranoid about TU. I know how the comment tally ended up. Number one there wasn’t nearly as many comments from any particular group as you seem to imagine. I have two theory’s why DEC made a reg change on the lake. I also sat on the bi-national stakeholder group and in listening to MNR and DEC there were/are routinely looking to have standard regs including creel limits. At the time the Canadians had recently dropped their steelhead lake creel to two. The second factor that I know was discussed internally between mangers was the original architected plan that Bill Pearce put together back in the 60’s. I know because one of my very good friends working for DEC at the time helped bring that to the discussion. King and Coho salmon along with brown trout and lake trout were to be the staple fish for the lake, and steelhead were the icing on the cake. Since steelhead spend as much if not more months in a tributary and Bill and his team of biologists and managers stated that steelhead would be the trib staple and the other fish icing on the cake since their river presence was far more limited. So maybe that’s why they made the change.

We are once again going to try and find a place to raise steelhead on the Genny. There is a keen interest from fishermen to do so. Hopefully we can work something out with a location to house the pens. DEC supports this 100% and will provide the materials to build them. And fisherman from all interests have volunteered to take care of them.

There are other factors. One, most of the discussion around LO and alerts to pen rearing is done on this site. Most tributary fishermen that I know and have known forever never ever heard of LOU. I had my boat at Sandy until 2001 and knew Bob S since I had been the president of the then western Lake Ontario Charter Boat Association, and helped on pens at the Oak and Sandy and at the Genny when Frank Sanza ran that operation. I was always a trib angler and I can tell you several that I fished with joined those efforts. We just didn’t announce how or where we fished. Cause who cares. Let’s just raise these fish and set them free. Organizations like Trout Unlimited are not now nor have they ever been a threat to any cold water fishery. They work on every type of water that supports cold water species. Any success story of cold water species being supported by anglers is in their play book. Regulations are meant to sustain sport fishing. And there will never be a regulation amendment or change that makes everyone happy. But in the end where has any of this truly ruined anyone’s life or lively hood? Support them or hate them I can’t imagine anyone walked away from fishing the lake or the tribs due to a fishing creel regulation.

Yup I was asked to present that to the state council and in attendance was Steve Hurst who also supported the presentation. At the end of it the council wanted to make a TU position statement in support of the two new reg changes to the tribs , and had no statement in any changes to any regs for the lake. And in front of Hurst and the council I said NO. Individual anglers need to decide on their own on if they support these reg changes, and comment back to the DEC. So New York State TU did not make an organized position statement to DEC to the comment period. And I know that Lake clubs and Charter boat groups also discussed these reg changes during the comment period back then as well they should. So what’s the big deal if groups of concerned anglers discuss matters of the fishery? Yesterday while loading one of the chinook pens at the Oak a section of pipe broke loose and hundreds of salmon par spilled out on the ground. Do you think the trib guys for which there were at least a dozen just sat there and said well these are chinooks flopping around dying in the dirt let the lake guys pick them up? No everybody scrambled to get these beautiful little fish into the water. And by the end they had all been put in and I didn’t see a single dead par laying on the surface. Brian it’s time to stop all this us vs them BS. We all love this fishery no matter where and how we fish it.

Here’s the truth about what happened at the Genny with Steelhead pens. First let me comment on regulation changes three years ago. The original stakeholder committee was involved in offering regs changes. The members of that committee addressing the tributary fishery offered a 1 one brown trout limit reg change ONLY in the tribs and a 25 inch limit for steelhead. The trib steelhead creel limit was changed from 3 to 1 in 2004. That was it. Never did that group seek a creel reduction for the lake creel on steelhead. They did want to see a universal 25 inch limit open waters and trib. That request was refused at the committee level after discussions and the lake size would remain at 21. There was no push back from lake anglers on the two reg changes to the tribs. That was it. The DEC through their own discussions made that change. It had nothing to do with any tributary group. Call the DEC in Albany or Cape Vincent and ask them if you don’t believe what I’m writing. Ask them why? Two years ago a group of 30 volunteers both trib and lake anglers to include a few charter boat Captains worked with DEC, a private welder to get materials, funding and permission from Skip Shumway to put two new steelhead pens at the Genny. The Order for materials to be shipped to the welder was being finalized, when Skip called me since I had secured his agreement to let us bring steelhead back to the genny and said and I quote. A few charter boat captains approached me to say they didn’t get along with tributary anglers. I can’t have any trouble on my property so I have to rescind my permission to have them put here. This friction between fisherman is childish. Today at the Oak, lake anglers including charter captains and trib anglers worked side by side to load 127k salmon and 10k steelhead. Wednesday this week a group of lake and trib anglers like they did last Saturday will join each other to load 10k steelhead into their Sandy creek pens. So why can’t that happen at the Genny where both lake and trib anglers enjoy catching steelhead in both the open waters of the lake and the river?

I’m not sure after reading the last group of posts what you are looking for Spoon-fed. New York State is getting the majority of LL salmon from a federal hatchery in Vermont. The ADK state hatchery will continue to produce the same number of LL salmon for the finger lakes and some for LO as they have since the 80’s. From a funding perspective there is no change from the standpoint of taking monies from the other LO stocking programs to run this one. Gambler and others you would serve yourself well to go log into the Great Lakes Fishey Commission. The Federal programs developed way back in the 1950’s on the control of lampreys and the restoration of Native Great Lakes Species. For the past 70 years the two have been tied together. Personally I can’t see the Feds stopping the lamprey program just because a state quits a native species restoration program but these guidelines were put forth back when there wasn’t a pacific salmon program in the Great Lakes and F&W was looking to bring back native species. I for the life of me can’t fathom why any true sports fishing angler would have anything against trying to add diversity to a fishery as long as it doesn’t harm the existing program. Having and extra 80k LL in the entire lake that not only eat herring, but gobies, perch, shiners and insects. So this species won’t be a big player in the lake but probably in the tribs. It’s because they aren’t an off shore fish to where many of you spend most of the season. As far as them not getting caught in the tribs, I’ve heard the same story HB2 states that lots are being caught in the western tribs. But today in a conversation with Chris Legard with a former DEC employee was told by Chris the creel survey crews working the two tribs they are stocked in out west shows a large catch rate of LL’s . I’ve not caught any but I haven’t been fishing the western tribs lately. Working the bigger rivers instead. It’s amazing what weather does to fish movement. Because of low water I’m catching brown trout in a big river to where I’ve caught a handful of them the past 40 years. Now landing several a trip on top of the steelhead. There is no down turn in stocking of other species other than what DEC has cut from the bait fish assessment. They must have assessed that the number of LL’s stocked isn’t going to negatively effect the current situation. I don’t get to lake fish as often but I hope for the best for all that do, especially the guys who are guiding. So why is there anger if the tributary fishery might get a boost from another species of fish that I can tell you are a blast to catch in a river. Brian, I fish the Cayuga tribs and there are plenty of 10 plus pound salmon, and many many nice 5 to 8 pound fish that put on a spectacular show. So not sure how much hands on experience you have there but your experience certainly hasn’t been mine.