King Davy

Just to clear up one point that I hear over and over about closing tribs during spawning season. There is so little successful natural reproduction of the trout species in our Southern tribs, that closing them would not have a measurable impact on recruiting new fish to the system. Now some true natal tribs like Orwell Brook on the salmon river could be closed in April as it has been known from a study of how successful natural repo is... to be a successful spawner should be closed. Brown trout, Steelhead and Coho Salmon spend over a year in a trib before migrating to the lake, therefore must summer over in our warm lethal streams and rivers. Survival rate to adult stage is minute at best. There are current regs of not harvesting eggs and discarding carcasses, no chumming regs etc, and yet the only way to stop it is to "catch" violators in the act. We all know there aren't enough CO's in the field, especially during the brown trout spawning season when you have Upland Game, Waterfowl, and Deer hunting going on at the same time. I'm all for regs that can and will be enforced, to Rich D's and others points DEC struggles to enforce the ones we got. If you see somebody doing this.....either call DEC, video them, take a picture, or follow them to their car and get their license plate number. And you have to be careful out there because those that do this intentionally, might be more inclined to get in an altercation with you. But we are going to have to start policing the raping of our resource and that's tricky. The reason the Canada tribs are closed until the last Sat in April (Only above the Canada railway system that runs parallel to LO and intersects all the popular tribs on the north Shore) is those streams do promote Natural repo, with good cold clear water even in summer.

Gill creating a waiver takes two legal parties one of them is out of Albany and requires a big hill to climb in paperwork and bureaucracy Nothing is easy at this level. Nobody can fathom it but it's the system that is in place. Like it or not Steve has it right. DEC is a functional arm of NYS in the science business trying to figure out the complexities of an environment that changes by the hour. Less salmon more bait bigger fish. More salmon ample bait more competition less size but plenty of 15 to 25 pound salmon per acre then above. Pick your poison big fish with less fish. Smaller fish more fish. Not going to get back to the 70's or 80's the lake will never again have the carrying capacity as it did back then cause we'll never again have the nutrient loading. That was then this is now different day different world. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Steve I don't know about getting a reward.... People who enjoy fishing the tribs....have in the past 15 years stepped up and volunteered to clip fish, plant trees clean tribs, help with the spring netting of YOY Chinooks to study Natural repo. We bought gas cards for DEC and donated them to help do the stream creel census. Just this fall and winter both rec and guides helped DEC collect the sample of sick steelhead. I happen to have a lot of friends who are in this that study the environment and understand the science, and to Tom's brilliant post get the fact that as much as we think DEC has management say, they actually have very little. Mother nature calls the shots. You can have all the great management plans you want but MN runs the game. As far as sending people up to do work on the hatchery...as a business legal consultant, I can tell you there is a MOUNTAIN of red tape from NYS that is almost impossible to do (Audits etc etc)...that stifles all of that. And it has nothing to do with DEC. See legal dept. at NYS.

Well Jerry just like fishing we ask a lot of questions cause we are always trying to learn something new. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I agree with Gill on this....in the end DEC isn't telling us the results of the specific science they may have recorded on scale samples and fun loving orientation etc. They want to know how many fish caught what species, and they would want your scaled weight of the fish probably to determine the health by weight. But since that could be less accurate, they might just settle for how many anglers, how long you fished, where people were from, and what you caught. I would think if Lake Angler clubs, and Charter Boat Assoc. contacted Jana, and discussed this opportunity, if they buy in, they'd help design the data sheet needed. Maybe somebody could even volunteer to design (cause we know they probably can't afford it) a virtual data collection portal to the DEC ...and you could upload this data to it from your phone from the boat buy having the electronic form on your phone. We got more innovators around here then you can shake a stick at.....get with the DEC and pitch some ideas.

Side pressure no good unless you pull that throttle back into neutral and we aren't kite-ing the fish. I figured out how to catch these fish on a fly rod out in open water. Did it years ago, but perfected it the past 10 years in the Salt. off shore.. proper sink tip, water load that cast, fling it 100 feet, count to 25 ... strip....and hang on. Fun to watch those rods trip off a release...whole nother game when a player in open water comes to eat those feathers, and rips your arm out of the socket cause you are holding the rod on the take....jus sayin' .... BUT fishing that game...that 8 fish avg a trip is going to take a hit. Steve....I know many have said it before, but it always need saying, you run a wonderful site, very fair, lots of great info, and lots of great anglers come visit here. Thanks for the invite...and thanks much for the voice. you're first class Steve.

I usally get out for the Spring Derby with a buddy down out of Wilson. Last year a fly fishing lady friend of mine and my wife Lindsay has a little 14 footer. I told Lisa I'd teach her how to troll the shoreline if she was interested. She was all in...as she loves to both trib and lake fish. We went out of Sandy on a Monday morning from 7 to Noon we put 40 fish over the side, I asked her what she thought of this.....her response....."I think I need Cigarette"

I really don't think most people understand the "power" that the Great lakes Fishery Commission wields. The DEC and the DNR in the other lakes don't have 100% the last say on these decisions. Everybody should go to their website and get educated. Native species are going to be chips on the table forever. These guys have been in business and in charge since the 50's. They have an agenda, and it's going to get carried out. And none of these states in the GL get to say....Ahh...nah....this isn't for us. That's a game we can't win. So instead we have to find a way to play within the boundaries of the playing field...and honestly...haven't we? Doesn't matter if you are a part timer or full timer...if you choose to invest in this game of running a business...(not just charter guys), bait and tackle, marina's etc.....it's a roll of the dice all the way. Your success out on the big pond as well as in the tribs simply can't be debated. We are catching lots of fish.....and we have been for a very long time whether you believe the data or not. Let's just go look at the page after page of reports from the fishermen. Maybe we are all just a tad antsy cause of the winter. I haven't been on a trib since Jan 18....and I'm angry and nasty as Hell. Best of luck this year Steve....I know you'll do well .

Steve I asked a "leading Question" of USGS at the meeting....meaning I already knew the answer, but many in the audience didn't. USGS trawls for Alewife from April 5th to May 5th give or take a day here or there. I asked if they think they are missing fish when and where they trawl. Understand they start there trawls sector from shallower (50 foot) on each shore all the way across the lake. And yes they are leaning on Good Ol' Bob O'Gorman's long term knowledge that in this time frame Y Over Y ....In early April to early May when the inshore and off shore waters are very cold Alewife are located at or nearer the bottom sections of the depts. of water they trawl. With a lake the size of LO....can they be 30 yards away from a huge school of bait fish and miss them ....ahh...can trollers be 30 yards away trolling from a huge school of Salmon and not bounce a rod only to proclaim the fish aren't here in this spot? Let me ask....when USGS found the highest concentration of YOY alewife's EVER in the fall off 2013...how come nobody questioned THAT data? No matter the results of the spring trawls...they already knew there was a huge load of new forage running around out there....and everybody must have believed this to be true...cause many were yelling TOO many bait fish not enough predators. So do you really doubt that after the coldest winter in 150 years last year...that resulted in lowest body weight of moon eyes in a decade, AND a very poor YOY trawl last Sept....trawling the same location that yielded the record numbers the year before that they got it all screwed up? Doesn't make sense. If we don't like a data point, we don't believe the numbers? That's convenient. On to creel census.....So they have a budget that allows for one to two boats for a few months. How come nobody ...none of the Charter Boat groups, or rec anglers groups...haven't stepped up and said HEY, we'll also collect data, put it in a spread sheet and send it in? We could scape off a couple scales when we are cleaning fish...put them in an envelope and write on it...from an 8 pound king salmon, caught July 4. "partnerships" are a two way street. We've kept logs on the finger lakes, and inland tribs for DEC that helped them determine health of those tribs. Is it an effort? Hell yeah. You want better data...PROVIDE it yourself. The DEC didn't hold a gun to anybody's head and say...go be a Charter Boat fisherman and try and make a living at it...and we promise to keep you whole the entire length of your career, and don't worry about Mom nature, we'll handle her... Another hatchery??? Whose paying for it...whose giving the state the money to manage it and pay 10 people to work there? How about everybody who fishes this fishery (me included) donate I don't know $20K of your paychecks to fund it. Did anybody remember Andy G talking about the roof leaking at Altmar? It's been leaking since 1985. Gonna get that fixed this year 30 years later. Who doesn't think the same problems and challenges don't crop up in another hatchery. The 1980's Version was $10M to build....what would it be in today's market...and where are we getting the deep water wells dug? We have some special folks that I fish with, and many others that I don't know but have contributed time and effort to this fishery, without working to simply put money in their pockets. . Yeah we love our trib fish....and we saw the potential to create better habitat in a river that does promote wild fish, mostly King Salmon. the Salmon river has a huge flux season to season with the run off from the Tug Hill...causing tons of erosion problems, silting spawning gravel. So since 2008, we've planted 60,000 trees along the areas that are impacted, You can't truly measure our efforts as of yet, but the river produces millions of wild fish including for the first time in 150 years wild Atlantic Salmon. Not saying this looking for a pat on the back....but stating a fact that if you want better data or conditions...then get involved MORE then just sitting in a meeting and complaining about what you are listening to.

I respectfully disagree Steve. The DEC's focus has to be on one thing and one thing only....a healthy fishery. If that means less fish it's only because the science says so. DEC has loaded in almost 3 Million surplus fish the past several years. They upgraded the King Stocking numbers from 1 million when the forage base was low, back to 2 Million, Even WITH what they now know is a large wild population to boot. The Avg Charter boat caught 8 fish per trip? Where have we ever seen long term Avg numbers like this? I realize you all want those 8 fish to be salmon....but if they didn't have the other fish in the lineup when the salmon fishing is off....Then what? They can't knee jerk the science. As far as a broken record....how about the continued whining from anglers saying they don't believe any of their scientific data, when we've had a "very" healthy fishery for FORTY YEARS!!!...and have never lost the fishery. If I was a Lake angler...I'd be holding my breath right about now....cause loads of salmon or not...LO is nearly or at the 1979 apocalypse core temp. If the predator to prey balance is flipped this year because of this winter, you'll happy DEC didn't knee jerk a ton of more fish into the system. As far as Dollars...DEC is a Science Functional arm of the State of New York. They aren't in business. Where were all the assemblymen and women at the SOTL the other night? Those are the folks WHO have clout to work with DEC to bring the value of the tourism to the table. Chamber of Commerce where were they? You guys are focused on the wrong targets fishing in dead water. You're banging on scientists.....to put money in your pockets. Finally....like it or not...DEC and rightfully so manages this fishery as it should be....a 12 month a year entity. And in less than a month these pages are going to be full (in the reports section)..of 50 fish days trolling the shore line.....every day there will be a dozen new reports, video's...etc. And the question I would have????...are you guys still having fun out there? I watch the video's of some of you guys pulling in big lakers...and to me...it looks like a lot of fun....yeah LOVE King Salmon.....but I simply love to fish! OK off the soap box...thanks....and I'll be happy to take my beating...now...but look in the mirror...how spoiled ARE WE?

From a magazine article I wrote for the original Great Lakes Fisherman many many years ago.... I settled in listening to the hum of my V-6 outboard throttled down into trolling speed. Rods set in the holders and the crisp morning Lake Ontario air biting the tips of my ears even though it was late May. My fish finder showed me what I had hoped to find, pods of bait fish, shadowed by ominous larger hooks. “Lions†I thought…lurking behind the vast bait pods. The king salmon is to the food chain in the great lakes as the lion is to the animal kingdom of the great plains and jungles of Africa. ..AT THE TOP. You see the marks, as you troll past them …you imagine the rythmatic fluttering of the trolling spoons moving at a nervous pace through the depths, depicting escaping bait fish…follow the spoons life line to the monofilament that transcends to the surface, and you eye the arc’ed rods in the holders quivering as if they were stags on the plains knowing that behind the scrub brush lurked the dangers of the lion. Your eyes flicker from the fish finders gray scale screen, to the rod tips and back again. The baits are moving past them, you watch the rod tips intently. You look for the slightest sign that a tip is about to buck loose. Salmon charge…and they pounce, and twist, and shake hard because they are violent. Out here on the big water…they don’t sip…they chug the bait fish. In and instant the number four rod rockets from the release….and you have to be looking at it to see the release, because as soon as the fish has tripped the line, he’s dashed down hard shaking with the furry of the lion taking down the stag, and the rod tip is not air born, but throbbing down into a tight “Câ€â€¦it’s tip almost touching the water. The reel starts out slow….and like the crescendo in a great symphony, builds to a high pitched whine as the fish using all it’s skills has sped away with the prize. Grabbing the bucking rod with the line melting off the reel at light speed your first intuition is to stab the fish by setting the hook. However that would be disastrous, and you’ll break something, knot, hook, line, rod…many times the lion roars his disapproval of the lure in his jaw by hitting the lake surface with a series of leaps, or head and tail slapping tirades. Great lakes trolling tackle over the years has migrated into lighter rods, thinner diameter lines, and a 20 pound plus fish with 150 yards of line out feels overwhelming on this gear. I love to watch the faces of first time king salmon anglers as they stand on the deck of the boat…with wobbly knees, mesmerized by the speed at which the mono is leaving the reel. They insist we’ve hooked a nuclear sub on it’s decent to the bottom of the lake. People who are intimidated by such power often make serious angling errors and many lose those first fish. At the helm you’ve started to bank the boat to the side the hit came on. You instruct the mate ( or run back and forth from the wheel to the rigs like a mad man making sure gear is secure and not in the way of the fight. ) . The fish will stop someplace between 100 and 200 yards down range. That’s a lot of line and drag in the water…you instruct the angler to pump and reel on the fish to gain back line while keeping contact with the fish. If you settle into the fish pumping rhythm you start to turn this fish and gain line….you see the angle of the monofilament near the boat and you realize you’ve almost reached the finish line. “I don’t see him yet, but he must be a big one†And finally that silver, pewter, black spotted demon raises from the deep, swaying back and forth, acting like a little kid who’s been scolded in the supermarket…seemingly willing to come to the net….NET! oooops…once they see the net, the next move is text book, one slash of their powerful tail and they spin on a dime and take off on another long run, and you begin the tedious process of wrenching them back again. Once in the net you can do nothing but admire this species. The broad shoulders, big teeth, powerful tail. You notice that though the fight might have lasted 10 minutes and sometimes many moments more, your arms and wrists are sore, your arms in fact feel like two window sash weights hanging at your side.

You can look into the past.....but just don't stare at it.

Officially The Hatchery harvested and fertilized 3.9 million Chinook eggs in four days. They also had many "green" fish, meaning fish that weren't ripe sitting in the runs that they had to put back in the holding ponds to ripen up. This week they'll finish up the Coho egg take. Plus the additional eggs from Canada. I've been on a lot of tribs here in the western basin, and fresh kings are still rampaging up these trickles. Latest I've seen this many fish come in in the shape they are in. Saw some 30 plus pound fish idling in a nearby trib on Sat. Just my observation, but it looks like a lot of Salmon simply weren't playing where many were fishing this past open water season.

Well and that's the key. Edwardvh1. The salmon river has seen years they probably have had 50K salmon enter the river, both wild and stocked adults, and they are all through the river course. Typically they can get their eggs and milt from a few hundred fish. Of course you always want to have extras, for any eye up issues. But they don't spawn 1000's of fish to get 3 Million eggs. From my friends who work at the hatchery, they seem to have enough fish on the property to achieve that egg take. But you never know for sure until you start the process. We heard the other night in the DEC/Stakeholders meeting DEC is working to procure 500K eggs from the Credit River egg take. This appears to be an off year....but I remember years where we had fresh salmon running right up till Christmas. The fish....and Mother Nature are holding the cards,......and actually they always do.

Gambler...you missed it they gave away several sets of cow bells and spinners in all kinds of colors.....rods reels etc. Was well attended....room seemed pretty full. DEC Co LT Matt kicked off the meeting to talk about the hibitual issues on our tribs with foul play. He delivered a message that I know I've written about on these sites. CO's write tickets, and Judges toss the tickets out without a conviction. as stated by some of us...this has to be taken up with our elected officials, to do two things, Make the fines"Hurt" $250 Max fine doesn't hurt enough, and get the judges who hear these cases to lay the hammer down. Neither going to be an easy task. DEC can write Fish and Game laws but penalty for these cases has to be changed in the State Legislature. The folks attending cited several smaller tribs especially during the brown trout migration that his officers should target. Dave McNeil (Sea Grant) showed off an engineering modeling that can capture not only surface temps but through a set of algorithms of water temp densities can also graph for the open water fishery subsurface temps as well. I guess this info is available to the public now, but you can only get a point in time update. Others will chime in. Steve LePan had the floor for most of the meeting. He had several data sets available on bait fish assessments, creels for April through Sept, Also had the weekly seining results for the infamous flood spring where some feel we lost most of that's years wild stock in the salmon river. Now I'm taking the risk of delivering to you what I thought I heard. Others may have a different take and that's fine, but let's keep it civil. Where are the salmon? At best ....both Anglers and DEC/Scientist can only speculate. Salmon are starting to show up in good numbers at the Salmon river, and likely plenty of fish to get their egg take. Other tribs are starting to see migations of fish, but it's easily evident that arrivals are at least a month late, if not more. to me the most obvious logical reason is the result of fish being late this spring to the inshore waters, cold summer eastly weather, possibly/probably displacing fish from normal routes. DEC thinks they will come. Will it be as many as we are used to....don't know. Egg take at the Hatchery should begin next Tuesday. Over Abundance of Alewifes - DEC and many in attendance are at odds over this....as has been the position since 1993 when DEC decided to reduce king stocking due to their estimates of lower Alewife levels to stocking levels. Key is the Spring Trawls by USGS. We had a near or record hatch in 2013 of Alewifes. This spring the most important target is how those fish survived the winter to become a new generation of bait fish. the results of the netting after the brutal long cold winter of those fish to finish their first full year in the lake was a sizable HIT from most likely winter stress. However if you take the over all populations of YOY through say age six, while the chart showed a drop from over all alewife strength for 2014, it wasn't overly alarming. Yet this 2013 hatch took a pretty deep hit. This is the first big hit after years 2009-2013 of above avg. successful hatches. While many in the room debated those findings because of their own personal experiences....DEC reminded everyone in the room of the Audit that was done by a team of Forage base scientists from around the globe back in the early 2000's to asses the USGS and DEC process for the netting operation, and the results of the audit maintained that the process to collect this data was sound. DEC and USGS stands by the 2014 forage survey. Confirmed there was a spring/early summer die off....which they expected due to the coldest longest winter in over 100 years. and that they have no evidence to state there is an over abundance of Alewife in LO. Salmon - While everybody scratches their heads on where these fish are, DEC also stated that the weight and size of the fish sampled so far this year are at or slighly below avg. Further dispensing the notion (for DEC) there are too many bait fish. They would have expeced this data to be pointing in the other direction of more and larger fish. Again not alarming, yet not a tell tale sign to them a condition has changed. Wild Salmon - Understand that the seining results only states a number of eggs that sucessfuly hatched, and not the survival to adult stages of these fish, the data for the flood year clearly showed a highly successful hatch of fish. While the mid June to early July data showed a slight decrease in the fish netted from the long term avg. The week after the high water netting showed the largest amount of fish netted of the entire netting season. But wild fry to returning adult is much harder to determine now with the marking study for Chinooks complete three years ago. MORE Pen Reared Fish: DEC confirmed the first years data showed promise that pen reared fish sucessfully find their way back to the river of origin of where they were penned. However, DEC stands firm on gathering a full three years worth of data before making any changes. . Creel results: Clearly King Salmon catch rates were lower for the April Through Sept time frame. for me two notable results. Salmon catch still above the long term avg. and the Sept. results spiked much higher as those fishing had much better success since the fish are arriving late. Over all another strong year well above the long term avg. as anglers turned their attention to other Salmoid species (Browns, Steelhead and Lake trout). Marking Trailor - Future project is Coho clipping of fall stocks VS those held for over a year to hopefuly see what stocking method works better. Clipping of Erie Steelhead to asses the current stocking method of putting those fish in a few miles up rivers VS near the mouth of the lake stocking. Also a Lake Trout clipping project on the horizon.

Shout out to Jerry and Sam.....and any others that put last nights event together with the DEC. Nicely done guys and good to see you folks....and many others that we haven't seen in awhile.

It looks like they are going to be all right. What really needs to happen is the water to cool down so they can get started. Water was still 61 degrees yesterday.

I was there Sat evening.....when the ladder gets full..they open up the gates and have holding ponds to give the fish more room, and not keep ramming each other to death. Two holding ponds were chalked full of fish...ladder was full of fish, and Beaver dam brook had lots of fish. DSR had a big run.....according to some guides that fished it Sat. they felt that up to 4,000 fish ran that day.....With the gauntlet of anglers all the way to the hatchery...those fish will stop and start several times. DEC with the number of fish that are sitting waiting to be spawned doesn't seem concerned they won't get their target of eggs. Talked to some anglers yesterday that said another big slug of fish is resting in the esturary ...and some guides who are fishing the mouth all night said there apperars to be plenty of fish out front in the lake. Two weeks ago fishing the Genny three different days, I had salmon boiling and rolling for four hours each day going past me. Seemed to me the slug of fish moving up there was the usual number of suspects. We all have opinions on where are they?, or ARE they even alive. Are we missing year classes etc. Just got back from LI sound, Linds and I fly fishing for False Albacore tuna off a boat. We were there last year same time...from Cape Cod to Montauk....not a single Tuna..not one. Everybody scratching their heads...did they all perish? where did they go....this is the time they show up every year...., I mean we are talking about a huge piece of water that has had these fish migrate in for the past 20 years like clock work. Last Thursday....for six straight hours we were into Blitzing fish...birds diving bait and fish poking their heads up everywhere. Put several over the side, till we couldn't lift our arms anymore. Fish like it or not are on their own time line. Most years it works out...but when 10 million fish didn't show up last year...while the guides were hurting, they didn't panic....they've seen this before....maybe only once or twice in the past 20 years...but they knew this kind of thing can happen. This year from the Cape to Montauk Point they are all busy taking fishermen out....nothing they could do to control these fish showing up when they needed them there.

Yes was there this weekend, walked the property, holding ponds loaded past capacity, so much so the fish are pushing each other back out. Beaver Dam brook is also full of spawning fish. On Sat with some cool weather and good rain, well over a 1000 fish pushed up through the DSR. Stopped at the Genny yesterday.....lots of fish and fishermen in the upper river, lots of fish being dragged out. The observation of the River Stewards working the river is that the fish seem to be holding only in the deeper spots of the river and especially the esturary. Clearly the fish have been moving up river with 1000's at the hatchery ...most likely under the cover of darkness. I get a kick out of the reports on some of the tribs sites...about poor fishing...."only hooked 15 today very slow fishing....HUH?

Salmonboy41. Alaska has these sensors in place counting fish, because of both the Sport and commercial fishery. No fishery is managed to the minute like Alaska's and much of that finger on the pulse is to not allow the Commercial netters to take more fish out of the system then a proposed quota that would damage the natural replennishment of a species. Salmon Trawlers will often have to sit at idel in the embayments awaiting a signal from AF&G to go ahead and drop their nets...and depending how the commercial netting goes on a daily basis a season can end in a day or two. So the answer to your question for LO is no, Some of the Great lakes tribs have Weirs to capture fish for eggs and milt, none that I'm aware of have sensor counters. Our fish swim into the front door of the hatchery. and I have no idea what a sensor system like that costs, and how many resources it takes to manage it....but I would imagine it's expensive. Hope that helps.

Which is a valid point Tim....but data when available suggested strong hatching, and with high water, could and most likely would have induced the leaving of fish ....which could have resulted in less then stellar June data. Still...big Fry hatch never means a probabale big load of adult fish to the fishery. So absolutely those fish could have been impacted as fry and YOY by many many factors. Wild fish are unpredictable, and a reason we should be lobbying to keep the Clipping operation in tact. We won't be able to conclude data between wild VS hatchery much longer, and this year I think it's going to be a much more important factor.

yeah Scott I get that.....I remember a couple years out of Sandy back in the late 80's and early 90's when we had this kind of weather pattern....I took a week in July each time, ran over to Port Hope, and fished 10 to 15 miles east of there and crushed the kings while everybody on our side was scratching their heads. Could have been an anomaly...but I have lots of friends in the Kingston area, and they had fish all summer where they usually don't. but think about it....Spawner Kings way offshore in August isn't the norm lately and maybe the fact that they were behind in their migration. I saw some fish from the Genny up near the powerhouse this past weekend. They looked healthy but short...suggesting again two years olds that matured early. Just wonder if the winter pushed the button on younger fish to mature quicker. Maybe some of the older fish didn't handle the stress of a long cold winter where they didn't feed well. They have to eat in winter to survive, Not as often, but they have to eat. We need to get fish in the hands of biologists. First part of the year slammer fishing for kings right on track with the past few years and second highest creel count in the last 10 years. Second half creel count will have to be below normal we would expect with all the poor fishing reports. Sooo...if the a horde of fish arrive as usual, we'll probably have to chalk it up to a weather related possibly bait dispalcement to where the fish hung out related issue and not an issue with specific health of the species. If not we'll expect DEC to autopsy samples to see if they can determine a true health issue.

This isn't the first time this has happened. In fact as recent as 2007, the Hatchery in Altmar on National Hunting and Fishing Days which is always the last weekend of Sept. had little or no Kings in the raceway. A week later there were 20,000 fish in the raceways and beaver dam brook. I applaude Chris, for venturing out to find fish, as I've stated before , in a year with an Easterly flow of weather I always had to look much further off shore and east for that seasons mature fish. I have some friends on the eastern end of the lake in Canada who had a wonderful king season, and my Canuck brothers are having a normal trib king season. For the record....everybody talking about the flood year up on ther salmon river washing away the eggs...the actual data in the spring of 2011, showed a banner crop of hatched fingerlings. Another thing I'm noticing from pictures and fish we've caught last week up on the Salmon River the fish arriving, are in a condition that one would see after these fish are in a river for several weeks. Pics out of Oswego look like mid Oct. fish. To me looks like arriving late and maturing IN the lake as if they were in a river for several weeks...suggest in my tiny brain, that they may have been so displaced this year to the south shore tribs due to conditions, they are arriving later then usual, and are way into their accellerated spawning metabolism changes before reaching the pier heads. BUT the true test will be actual returns, and it won't be guess work. Remember creel census for the first part of the season showed near record catches. Talked to my friend at the Hatchery yesterday, and a nice cluster of very dime bright Coho's have just arrived, last few years we've seen them run a couple weeks earlier as well. Hang in their folks.....let's see what the fish tell us. We can have as many theories as we'd like but soon we'll get some true science involved....whether it's good or bad news, we'll have some experts to assess the data.

Hey Vince....always nice when sport fishermen. Help each other out. However I'm a realist when it comes to the Atlantic Salmon Efforts. And I know in the US and actually in Canada the current study is to see if there is a natural returning match of AS strain to the environments that we are left with. Candidly Bill Gates wouldn't have enough money to create a stocking only program for any of the great lakes. Best and only chance is to find a strain that fits and can be successful from fry to Adult returner. While letting go the AS absolutely at least gives the fish a chance to retrun to a river to maybe help measure success...as a former Charter Boat Capt. I'm personally fine if your client thinks this is a fish of a life time and wants ot harvest it. But I will lobby to let as many chrome steelhead go boyz....just hit a couple really hot fish this week in the SR.....6 times in the air and into my backing on the tug. best wishes

Thanks Jerry.... I'll think of some questions. On the topic of stream law enforcement, yes we'll all agree that we need to see much more presence, of CO's on the tribs, and I know other factions in DEC have taken the Law enforcement folks to task on this already. The bigger issue is the fact that the penalty for law breakers is a slap on the wrist. If I cross the border into Canada, and do something illegal, I'm going to jail, losing my truck and all my gear. Most states out west and Alaska same thing. So when it comes to making the penalty a deterrant to the crime, Sportsman have to work that through their elected officials and the State of New York court systems. One year CO's wrote 117 tickets just on the Genny. they went to a particular judge in Rochester, and only TWO were fined. We pressured the political system to get this particular Judge off that bench, and we did, but the legal system has a hard time worrying about a guy who snagged a fish, when on the same docket, they have rapists and murderers. The poor CO's who did all this work were a tad insulted to say the least. Thanks again Jerry.