King Davy

Sorry for recoping the link. Problem with Sandy is it gets lots of anchor ice. If spawning occurs and the eggs and or fry get trapped under the anchor ice they don’t survive. However when seining started in the salmon river. DEC along with help from Brockport State did some seining at the mouth of Sandy in June and captured wild Chinook salmon. I see many pods of Par salmon in the spring. But nobody knows what the survival rate of those natural repo fish are and why trying to mange for available forage on stocking decisions is difficult and lends itself to models etc. I agree with Capt. Vince that our salmon have evolved and don’t have the same life cycle they did in the 80’s. I have no idea what the data looks like on average weight etc, either up down or normal, but my experience is these fish still seem to fit their length with regards to average girth. I haven’t experienced long skinny salmon, which would be the beginning of being alarmed.

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Yeah the math is simple. Never debated it. 1.8 million down to about 900k. But there were two banner years of natural repo on the salmon not to mention other rivers. The DEC and MNR HAS to take those fish into account in determining impact on forage. Tell tale survival of yearling king salmon appeared to be off the charts this year. I’ve never seen anything like it. And I read report after report lake wide of the same high catch rates. I would imagine that’s why so many Young bait fish were being cropped off faster. You are either in the camp of sound yet cautionary management practices by scientists to maintain a viable fishery looking more than just one year out at a time……… or your not

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THANK YOU!!!! For providing.

SpoonFed, I’d love to see DEC stock 1.8 million salmon again. And I don’t doubt they would if the science and data of all the work USGS and MNR is collecting on the forage trawls told them the food source is healthy. But it’s not. And it’s that simple. Are they leaning to the side of caution, sure. Do you really want the average size of salmon to drop into the low teens, and then fall off? Lake Ontario is going to be managed by fishery biologists who collect data to help them make decisions. It has always been that way. as Far as TU they are involved in all aspects of cold water fisheries in NY, both inland and on the Great Lakes. But as far as the steelhead regs and Steve Hurst was in the room at their annual conference, they did NOT take a stand as an organization on commenting. They left it up to individuals to decide if they were or were not in favor and to decide personally to comment or not. You’re alway great at just shooting from the hip never ever getting it right, or hitting the target.

This fishey isn’t and can’t be managed by fisherman’s opinions, yet in many cases you get to voice it through comment sections on the DEC sight. DEC in partnership with Canada’s MNR, USGS and USF&W doing science is the decision making body after collecting data that tells them what the environment can support in predator prey balance. There are wild cards out of their control especially in the case of Chinook Salmon on how successful is wild salmon production. And of course climate and what impact might that have on bait fish and young trout and salmon survival. I think if you spent anytime on the lake this past year you had to come to the conclusion that both stocked and wild salmon yearlings had tremendous survival with the loads of little fish everyone caught. the little, mid size and adult salmon are all eating the hell out of what ever bait is available. If you don’t manage for your forage base you risk crashing the whole program. I’ll say it again. DEC has managed this multibillion $$ program for over 50 years. We are the only Great Lake that hasn’t suffered a major crash of salmon.

We’ve heard that the past two years we had successful recruitment of alewives. We’ll find out in a bit with the fall assessment of how 0 age fish went. But I believe the major factor is the high majority of the forage base is 0 to 2 year olds meaning still small size snacks. the 4 and 5 year olds and older are pretty much eaten out if the system. In raising fish in the pens in spring remember a released chinook is four to six inches long and in three years as an adult grows in average between 18 to 25 pounds. That is crazy growth in three years explaining just how much impact they have in the bait populations. 90% of it alewife. So with growing to those sizes they are cropping off those healthy hatches of bait fish as fast as they are hatching simply because the older bigger more nutritious bait fish are in very small supply. And thus aren’t growing to the 30 plus sizes cause they aren’t getting the fattiest nutritional value from the small bait. Ok Atlantic Salmon. We get a total of 120k Atlantics a year. Swimming in 2 million acres of Lake Ontario. How many people think if we only got 120k kings they’d have great fishing? The Salar program is a native species restoration science project. And while DEC and US F&W the major investor of the LO salmon program hopes for it to have a sport fishing impact it’s unlikely with so few fish in the system. But I’m personally ok with that as I’d rather they focus on the science around a heritage species to see if there is a strain that would end up being successful even in a limited role in sport fishing. Remember the very same fish are out into the finger lakes that also have alewives and they do very well as a lake caught fish and especially well returning to rivers they weren’t even stocked in. Lastly fishery managers have no control over natural reproduction of chinook salmon to help them manage their stocking plans. The only measurement they have is the spring seining program on the salmon which yields anywhere from 5M to as many as 12M successful hatches of King salmon in the one river. as a trib angler who fishes right into May almost every river, or stream I fish that time of year I encounter salmon par. I think we have way more dinners at the table than enough food to go around to grow 30 plus pound fish on average.

rollmops when I sat on the stakeholder committee I urged the plan to lean towards irondequoit Creek for all the reasons mentioned here and more. The Irondequoit actually is home to wild steelhead. I’ve caught them for years in the middle of summer (par and smolts) on dry flies. LL’s would survive and possibly reproduce in the Iron. I was around in the 80’s when they stocked it with LL’s and I found good fishing on returns. I felt they didn’t stick with that stream long enough. I fished the Soo for many years. And it is spectacular. But we don’t have that kind of system here with cold water even in mid summer, and the river forage the St Mary’s produces. in 2018 USF&W was working on two thermal relief studies on the Salmon. They floated the entire river in summer to locate thermal relief pockets which they did, and then were supposed to look into stream rehab projects that might create those oasis river spots for summer run fish. they also located thermal relief pockets of water in the lower reservoir and again we’re supposed to look into if and how they could capture those colder thermal pockets and release them below the dam. in august of 2018 I was working on the TU Oatka Creek project in the park with USF&W guys who would come check in on our work and then head to the salmon to work on its potential upgrades. Then Covid hit, and I know that work was either delayed or scrubbed. The plan as you stated never mentioned any stream rehab studies. Maybe they are working that all back in. Be nice to know.

Bingo!!!!!!! Feds are going to be highly involved. While I’d love to have a consistent summer fishery for LL’s and I did experience a few good summer seasons. It hasn’t been consistent. For us who want to fish for Atlantic Salmon we have to travel. I’ll be in Labrador one month from today on the Big River. Sea run fish as well as sea run Brook trout and Arctic char. We’ll see what happens with the new plan but I expect to travel many miles to get good fishing.

Well Gambler, I wonder why if it was a total lost cause DEC is not only dedicated to continue, but adding more fish, adding pen rearing bringing in a river from the past that had good results, keeping another as a possible stocking site. If all their data year after year pointed south then why bother. I stated I don’t like the plan but then again when is the last time you actually saw a published plan for this species. They shut down the Skamania program. Ended the domestic rainbows in LO. Looks like to me when they don’t think a program has any merit they scrub it. I’d be pretty sure if this plan is executed to their design and fails to meet their goals, they’ll pull the plug.

Welp Gamber I’ve seen plenty of steelhead die from eating emaciated alewives… once in nearly 50 years after the polar vortex which is the only time I’ve ever seen that. I’ve never seen or found a dead LL in a river or stream or floating in the lake or heard of them washing up on the beach. And I’ve never seen it in the finger lakes where they eat alewife in the open waters and run it’s rivers. During the polar vortex seasons and the alewife die off to poor health I witnessed 100’s of chinooks spawning in the DSR. Seemed they didn’t have the energy to run up river. You always get some spawning but not like that 2015 fall. DEC collected eggs from some of those fish and they were extremely high in thiamin-ease. My point is no salmonid is unaffected by sick alewives. It’s hard to compare the effect in a species that spawns and lives, and one that dies no matter what.

Actually Roger’s biggest problem was raising LL’s in captivity. They are according to the scientists I know the hardest fish to raise in a hatchery. His hatchery is in the basement of the US power plant on the St Mary’s. A long way from a highly technical hatchery of today. the biggest problem for LL’s and alewives is not death to the adults it’s failure in reproduction of spawning adults. If the plan is a grow, put and take, the issue with LL and alewife isn’t a big deal. But if DEC was truly trying to gain a natural wild LL population then they should be treated with VB at the egg stage and as fry. Tunison was ( and still are) capturing adult female and male salmon from the LFZ and beaver dam Brook, taking them to Cornell and successfully spawning them, and as yearlings releasing the off spring back into the salmon. Again the releases were all the way up river. Just now they have started stocking them at the mouth as that method has proven most successful at the Oak. So possibly the program continues as new methods of stocking just came into play and DEC wants to see if their stocking changes have a positive effect. The Pen rearing just started as well, and while there were some glitches some tweaks will be in play to see if pen stocking is successful.

For Gambler, Brian of course there wasn’t 2700 Landlocks in the Oak two years ago. But there were a few hundred that were caught several times. As far as misidentified, people usually confuse a salmon as a brown trout not the other way around. The St Mary’s is a multifaceted fishey loaded with everything from Kings, coho’s pinks and Atlantic Salmon as well as steelhead, kamloops rainbows walleyes, bass and tons of white fish. It’s has alewife, smelt, a huge caddis and Hex hatch. Right now the river is filling up with LL’s. Around Labor Day the Pacifics arrive. Then steelhead. Why the river is so successful for all these species is the St Marys drains Superior into Huron so water temps are favorable . And you are catching these fish while the big ships are transversing the two lakes. it took Roger Griel the lead biologist at Lake Superior State University nearly 20 years to create this highly successful LL program. Lake Michigan is also having success with LL’s. All of the Great Lakes programs are members of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission. GLFC’s mission is to kill the sea lamprey, and restore native species to each lake. Before everyone gets crazy about the current lamprey infestation, remember our rivers went two years without TFM treatments due to Covid and closed borders. The TFM team is from The Soo and the St Marys river area. There is a new Sheriff in town. Bureau Chief Steve Hurst has revised fishery management plans for all of NYS. Lake Ontario and all the inland waters. And he is keen on trying to rehabilitate native species not just in LO but the ADK, Catskills, Finger Lakes, Tug Hill etc. Love Stripe Bass and they are a formable foe in the salt. But I personally wouldn’t enjoy them more in LO than the Chinook’s. Besides traveling to the sound to fish for them and the tuna’s gets you a shot at some of the greatest fresh sea food on the east coast. Lots of opinions on the LL program. Make yourself heard and respond to the public comment period.

The Alaska king salmon fishery is apples to oranges to the Great Lakes. Bigger than the sport fishery putting stress on kings is the commercial, and native Alaskan subsistence fishery. it’s the most regulated fishery in the US. And candidly Alaskan guides who understand the fragile shape of the king fishery won’t likely let you catch 20 kings in a day. Many won’t take them out of the water to release. In the past 25 years I’ve spent in Alaska the guides I’ve fished with are the most conservation minded men and women I’ve ever encountered.

Gambler they until two years ago put fingerlings in at two to three inches. In other words bait. They anticipated those tiny fish would stay in their highly thermal relief streams for a year smolt imprint and swim out to the lake. Fingerling stocking has failed miserably everywhere. See the former LO Coho program. DEC plants yearling at about 60k fish and they grow and return to rivers as adults. I believe for the first time Canada started planting year old LL’s in 2020 or 2019, after DEC in their joint meetings encouraged them to do so for years. I have many Canadian MNR biologist buddies I fish with who confirmed a much different picture last fall on returns. Certainly not a landslide change but encouraging enough to stay down the path of stocking yearlings. But if on a course to just play grow put and take on heritage species without taking the time to protect them get a coordinated effort to do so from anglers, do the real science of habitat investment I could agree it’s destined to continue to fail. It’s either push your chips to the center of the table, or fold your hand. Can’t go have way… all in or all out. And I think the current LL plan is miles short of being all in.

Let’s get one thing out of the way. No species of fish is being considered to replace chinook salmon. Especially Atlantic Salmon. Lake Ontario and it’s tribs especially the Salmon River and the Genny was the greatest in land Atlantic Salmon fishery on the planet. There is tons of historical writings about this fishery pre industrial revolution. Atlantics are a distant kin to brown trout and sea run browns. Their temperature tolerance is into the low to mid 70’s for survival however they are a fish that is active in the high 50’s to mid 60’s. They are a variety eater from any kind of bait fish to insects. they are much like our steelhead when it comes to seeking a river. While they spawn in the fall late October throughout November they will enter a river many months before paring up to spawn. Thereby creating a chance for anglers to fish for them. I caught one of my biggest LL on the salmon river a couple years ago a brute of a fish over 15 pounds on May 2 as it entered the river. I had a day landing four dime bright just crazy jumping fish on July 3 a few years ago. I caught a stray LL in the Genny around thanksgiving that jumped 17 times and tore line out like any big salmon or steelhead. So they show up as early as May and can stay in a river happily for six months or more. Two years ago I caught three drop backs LL’s on the Oak on February 7. The water temp that day was 34 degrees and they were in the air longer than in the water. In the last 8 to 10 years LL have only been stocked to the best of my knowledge at Oak Orchard and the salmon river. Two years ago LL’s were being caught in the oak In August the total stocking was about 60k fish from DEC with additional fish from Tunison at Cornell. I don’t think the total number ever exceeded 120k. we all know to create a steady sport fishery we need a lot more fish than that. However I’m in total agreement with Longline. Do the science on trib environments first to find ( if any) could be home to LL in the spring through fall. Well South Sandy up north was once a trial river that saw up to 20 pound LL’s return in the month of June back in the 90’s. Then that program disappeared for what ever reason. Same with irondequoit in the 80’s. Natural Reproduction in my mind is a stretch at this point much like it is for steelhead and brown trout in our rivers which would never sustain a sport fishey. But some wild LL’s have been captured in the Salmon river. Two summers ago USF&W did some river floats down the salmon seeking thermal barriers. When found and they are there, there could be plans on stream rehabilitation to encourage LL’s to settle in and around those safe havens when water temps got warmer. Such a thermal relief area does exist in the lower fly zone. DEC has gone in there in the dead of summer and found healthy numbers of adult salmon milling around . A sport fishing program for LL’s is doable since there have been previous successes. But they must find the right habitat, and will need more fish to see if they return consistently.

I read and responded to the draft plan. I’m highly disappointed in the plan as it stands and here are my reasons. DEC and anglers both Lake and trib shouldn’t consider the program at its current state as a means to get more fish in the creel. This is a historic heritage species that should be treated the same as DEC is treating restoration of wild Brook trout in NYS. I’m involved with a program with DEC called Priority Waters. We are looking at 100’s of rivers and streams where restoration of habitat would impact growth and sustainable native Brook trout populations. There are a handful or LO tribs that “might” meet that target. Salmon river has proven it could and wild LL Salmon have been captured there. South Sandy and Irondequoit have also been highly successful with stockings in the 80’s and mid 90’s. Why those programs didn’t continue is beyond me. The focus of a LL program if truly putting a plan together would first be done on if we have the right strain of salmon that survives and returns well to Chosen LO rivers. The Sabago strain seems to be successful and other strains have been tried but are there any other likely strains they haven’t tried that should be? Next is there habitat in chosen streams that could induce a summer fishery. South Sandy did in the 90’s and the Irondequoit had decent success in the mid 80’s. The salmon river has had several years of solid summer runs. So it has been successful in the past. I think it’s a mistake to aim this program as a “ Grow, Put, and Take “ fishery. It should be a locked down science study on if there could be a viable sport fishery at some point. Only after you could answer if these fish will find suitable habitat in some of our south shore tribs. And honestly if it were successful it truly would be a bigger advantage to trib fisheries than open water. Traditionally LL’s are a river fish. In the 2019 to 2020 trib creel survey over 2,700 LL were caught in oak orchard creek alone. But this next year the run was poor. But of course there are factors that contributed. # 1 being the nearly 100% die off of the ADK hatchery fish in 2019 due to a power failure. Also the misconception that NYS spends large sums of money on this program is false. One hatchery(ADK) that provided fish not only to LO but also all the finger lakes. There are many on this board who fish the finger lakes and enjoy and are successful catching LL’s both trolling and in the fall in its tribs. The Feds are funding the large majority of the cost to raise and provide fish for LO. The fact that there has been some highly successful years of at least trib fishing suggests that this program could be successful. But I think the DEC and the Feds need to focus on the science specifically on what it takes in fish strains and available habitat to say you could put a consistent sport fishery in place. And this honestly is way more of an advantage to streams and rivers than the lake but if confirmed it could be for the over all sport fishery. There is never going to be a salmonid in the open waters that could or should be a replacement to the King Salmon. It’s a species that was built for the most exciting fishing and fish fighting in the open waters. But switch the environments and a dime bright LL salmon is a world class river fish on rod and reel, where the Chinook is not the same fish once into their spawning cycle. To treat this as a science study on four chosen rivers would include for me, no harvest of this fish for a couple spawning cycles. A moratorium if you will and creel data with as many fish sampled in the system as possible. And personally if after a locked down study for a strategic time frame resulted in, this species is highly unlikely to create an impactful sport fishery so be it. But this has been much more of a shotgun approach for many years. The last two years Salmon river plantings have been done at the river mouth just like Oak orchard that has seen the highest returns. So that has to play out. Will that make a difference? Also the Canadians stocked fingerling’s not yearlings until just two years ago. Fall reports from the Ganny this past fall were much more encouraging. And finally there is the state of Michigan that has a highly successful LL program. Not just the Huron St Marys program that is truly world class, but the Lake Michigan rivers are seeing highly successful reruns of LL’s. Get the plan put out as a coordinated series of stages to study Strain, habitat, restoration of the most likely viable rivers and streams everybody both trib and lake anglers onboard to catch and release and report each catch to DEC and the Feds to build a true data base that could prove viability, problem areas and possible “if” possible mitigation of those issues. If the result arrow points up, invest in the future. If not? Find the next project and fish to work on.

Amen Gambler.

His family had been on the river since before the revolution. I believe originally from the British isles. You can float through the water just can’t anchor unless you have a pass. There are several river guides who have purchased rights to float and anchor on the DSR. Further more they created a program for guides to reduce the guiding fee on the property to $0 if they came by during the off season to help groom the property for the Fall. The more projects they helped with the lower the fee. And one could reduce it to zero. DSR has also invited PHW, CFR and other Veterans groups to fish for free, and we’ve held multi day events on the property that included lodging at no cost.

Yankee!!!!!! They’ve been biting so good they’re biting each other.

That’s the thing about opinions…. Everybody has one. The DSR is an operation. They have lodges, a welcome center, and several full time employees, plus dozens of part time employees. To manage that they have to pay their employees and thus charge a fee to fish. I’ve been a pass holder for 10 years. Purely my choice. What do I get? I get to fish without the garbage. I get away from the crowds, I always find a place to swing a fly without a hassle, other anglers are cordial… and I fish to unpressured fish who will choose to crush my streamer. So for me it’s worth the fee. It’s not for everyone and that the beauty. You have a choice pay or not pay and fish any of the upper 9 miles of river.

The DSR isn’t only made up of the Barkley land. They lease property in the 2 1/2 miles from at least three and maybe it’s four other land owners. The other land owners let Barkley manage the property for their lease fee for the same reason any other land owner decided to lock up their property. When it was free range slobs devastated their land. The got tired of picking up garbage measured in metric tons that included large quantities of human waste . they could have all posted it and stopped all fishing except for them and their family and friends. Instead they made it a play for pay like so many landowners allow with deer leases. On a deer lease you have no right to be there if you aren’t on the lease. On this spate of river you can choose to pay and fish it or not. the migrating salmon and steelhead do just that. They migrate all the way up to the dam. And settle in the up stream reaches to spawn. Yes Late run kings can and do dig Redds in the DSR. That number might be in the 100’s of the 20 to 50k kings that run the river. As far as steelhead. I’ve never seen steelhead setting up redds in the DSR. They are the longest migratory run fish of all the species. if you don’t like the show….. change the channel.

Man you guys can get yourselves worked up. If DEC approaches a land owner and asks if they’d like to sell a slice of property to be used as a PFR it’s their business. They probably aren’t dialing into LOU to ask what you guys think. And the DSR thing ….. my god can we ever beat that horse enough. Like HB2’s excellent example. The fish don’t stay in the DSR. They migrate through just like deer move around. Anglers outside the DSR get a shot at those same fish their license dollars paid for.

Three years ago I was part of a coalition of trib anglers and business owners who benefited from the fall winter and spring river fishing. The NYPA that manages the Erie Canal had been in discussions with Orleans and Monroe county, DEC, fishing guides and rec anglers on creating base flows through Sandy, Oak Orchard, Johnson’s and 18 mile creek to induce migrations of trout and salmon. So fall of 2020 and 2021 they pulsed water all season until December when they had to finally empty the canal for winter. The results were highly successful in early and sustained migrations of trout and salmon into the streams mentioned above. This past season the angler usage was off the charts. But along with high usage comes the need for more PFR’s . We talked about that in 2019 that DEC would have to ramp up buying more easements especially along Sandy and possibly Johnson’s. So I just received an email from NYPA stating they and DEC is starting a campaign to search for landowners along these tribs that might want to sell easement rights. HB2 sounds like your closer to the estuary so not probably a play for you.