King Davy

Ha ha Lucky I had that argument with DEC last year and brought back up on the zoom call. Irondequoit creek has more access than Sandy. Runs 30 river miles from LO . Has great summer temps for trout and salmon and actually produces wild steelhead and brown trout, king and coho salmon. Has tons of canopy once out of the estuary that keeps temps in salmonid comfort ranges. Has several natural springs. Sandy runs through agricultural lands wide open fields little canopy , no natural springs, summer temps in the 80’s . Landlock salmon grilse and adults are river fish. If they can find a river with suitable habitat they will enter in the spring and all summer long before spawning in late fall. the Iron is that kind of river. Not Sandy.

I’m a member of the TU conservation council. We are in the process of working with DEC on several projects from the Adirondacks to the PA border. It encompasses everything from native species such as Brook trout to Landlocks to rivers and streams that currently hosts natural populations of trout. We have an extremely detailed Map of studies and investigations done by DEC on 100’s of watersheds with wild populations. These projects include ground breaking changes that will include things like dam removals where necessary. while DEC continues as they have for the last 50+ years to manage with the MNR the magnificent Lake Ontario sport fishery , there are lots of other fishery programs going on besides LO. DEC, USF&W and USGS will always be working on native species. From wild natural opportunities to bolstering better results for stocked programs. Hurst led the remaking of the inland tributaries plans the past 24 months for the first time in 30 years. The changes have been remarkable in the result in the early going. landlocks are a struggle everywhere in the US but science and new processes are never ending for the dedicated scientists that are driven to find success.

Gill T No your statements on the Atlantic salmon changes are completely off. DSR had nothing to do with any of this. This is a program change directed by Steve Hurst bureau chief of fisheries. Landlocks are stocked at the mouth of Oak orchard. The returns to the Oak have been extremely successful ( see Scott Prindle’s trib report). The salmon river stocks have always been done up by the hatchery in hopes that as the fish migrated to the lake they would imprint. However the salmon river has not enjoyed the consistency that Oak orchard has so DEC changed the stocking location to the river mouth. The pen rearing of Landlocks again a Steve Hurst experiment. As far as volunteers to set up the pens and raise the fish the local trib groups up there has over 30 hands on deck.

Can’t say what is next if stocking is increased. The pen crew could still have raised steelhead. Was the decision not to do that cause of the kings? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Well Gary the changes to stocking sites for salmon was purely made in this time of significant cuts to hopefully hold up the fishery in the next couple years with higher survival of stocked fish. Never had anything to do with sites that got dropped didn’t do a great job of raising fish. Just tried to maximize what we had for fish through science, data (that was from universal studies of stocked fish survival to mature status). All understood there would be some pain and dissatisfaction to endure. The panelists actually take a lot of responsibility to be the few that hopefully speak for the general fishing stakeholders. I can tell you the charter capts and river guides have the entire fishery in their sights, not just their personal businesses. As for the rest of us Rec folks we try our best to provide input that makes the best outcome for the entire fishery which has become absolutely the best 12 month a year fishery in the US for trophy trout and salmon. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah but the largest user population by far is the average Jane and Joe fisherman. I can tell you Rec anglers and Pro’s don’t always want the same thing. And there is very reasonable differences between them that need a common ground. And to have a manageable and productive meeting you can’t end up with 30 or 40 people in the room. Nothing gets done. Look at many of the State of the Lake meetings that end in shouting matches etc. this panel is there to get work done. The members also belong to the various fishing clubs and charter associations. And have been chosen because hopefully they bring with them sentiments from those groups if management decisions are to be discussed. We do have some in the room that own businesses that support the fishery. This has been a much more challenging lake fishing season but then again are we really surprised? Three years of cuts. A draught last year that probably impacted wild production of Salmon in our south shore tribs. Heck in many of the smaller streams that normally get solid runs of brown trout, they never showed up because the fish couldn’t get up them. So the browns spawned in the lake an estuaries, and were back in mid May mode out in deeper water not on the shore line in April. Water conditions contributed to that as well. But they are there. Just not where everyone usually looks for them. I get a lot of flack for saying this but I’ll say it again. DEC has been managing this fishery for over 50 years. We are the only Great Lake that hasn’t crashed our program ever. Sure we’ve had up and down years like this year but there are some huge magnificent fish to be caught out there and this fall winter and spring in our rivers. Tight lines folks. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yes I was mistaken they just weren’t pen raised. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Brian of the 12 members, there are a combination of Lake interests both professional and Recreational. Some who work both the lake and the tribs and tributary focused. The role for any member is NOT to be supporting one particular watershed, but to be able help DEC with management decisions for the entire lake. The lake is broken up into four sections. West, west central, east central and east. And there are some 35 to 40 tributaries on the south shore that one must have knowledge of and be able to speak to in helping firm perspective plans. So there isn’t a person on the panel that gets to focus on one stream, or only in the lake section they run their boat on. DEC expects members to be able to offer information and thoughts on the fishery as a whole. I think, can’t say for sure that DEC might be entertaining some fresh eyes on this panel. I’ve been a member since about 2002, so I’m ready to move on if you or HB2 want to be considered. However to fill my seat you’d have to be a trib rep, and I don’t think that’s where you want to be slotted. But Gary you might. I can reach out to the bureau chief and LO section head and provide your names for consideration. With Covid we haven’t met as often. Normally it was about once a quarter. Usually some place central about an hour or so east of Rochester. And then there are emails etc that you have to respond to. And some homework to do at times when new proposals are being brought forward. Personally I think they could use some new faces. But this is a group of folks that truly have decades of history of this fishery with tons of experience not only from fishing, but also an understanding of the science, how DEC does and can operate within the confines of New York State and so on. You’ll have first hand looks at the future, and you are expected to keep those things within the group until DEC makes them public. So no social media blabber until it’s news that’s been made public etc. Let me know… I’m happy to offer you guys up as potential panelists if you are dedicated to putting in the work, and have an open mind of following the process. If they come back and are interested in looking at either of you I can message you their contact info and you can reach out. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I’m not defending them Gary, only giving you my arm chair QB version. The big picture for the over all lake was to try and get the best results from stocking to maintain a viable salmon fishery when they knew this year was going to have the first big painful impact of three years of stocking cuts. I and others opposed the Sandy situation. But the Sandy cuts were included with Wilson, all of Sodus, the Sandy creeks out east etc. So plenty of other disgruntled fisherman. You can call or write the region 8 manager, the LO section manager and have a discussion. Obviously this year the horse left the barn. I assume the next big decision is to get the final bait fish assessment so they can plan on how many eggs to take in Oct. if there is going to be a stocking increase I think we can make a case to get Sandy back on line. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Brian actually while I agree Domestics played a huge role in filling the gap from salmon to the trout runs on Sandy, they were prolific on the Oak, Irondequoit, Maxwell, salmon creek in pultneyville, and even Mill creek. But my point is by losing kings, steelhead and domestics at Sandy… Sandy took the biggest hit of all of the stocking restructuring. Sandy has become a true destination brown trout fishery, it will get even more browns but losing these other fish while I’m sure stragglers will show up will change the face of that stream. And certainly the open water near shore fishery in the fall. But losing domestics is going to impact several watersheds. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Don’t have the exact number handy but I believe they stocked 70k domestic bows, and would replace that number with brown trout. I think the one brown trout limit on the tribs is going to start to pay dividends to the lake fishery in the next few years as well. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Genny gets 111k salmon. A larger allotment of browns and steelhead. The browns are still stocked at a few different locations along the lake in Monroe county. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Well HB2 the domestic rainbow program is over. They shut down that stocking in favor of raising more browns. So most locations are getting more browns. We placed 4th in the summer LOC in the brown trout division. And we put our time in fishing for browns and our experience was plenty of yearling browns, mixed in with the big fish we caught. The little brownies were as wide as they were long. All out of Braddocks. The one charter Capt I know out of Braddocks has been clobbering the browns when the temps are tight. Our weather and water temp structure has been all over the map this year. I believe that’s our biggest culprit. DEC are science guys but they do have bosses in Albany. So it would be foolish not to think there is pressure to find high economic return. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

HB2 your a business man , I was for 43 years it’s always going to come down to $$$ as part of the decision. My post was what I figured played in, not what was told to us. The fishing on the lake reminds me of that 97/99 fishing. Running all over the place to put a good day together. Back then we turned to steelhead, browns and lakers to get rods moving because with stocking reductions salmon fishing was tough. But we caught them as well . Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The science of survival was a culmination of stocked fisheries in general not just LO. And HB2 while it wasn’t admitted to us on the panel, I’m sure decisions are focused on greatest bang for your buck. Although Sandy during the trib season sees anglers from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and Colorado, and a flush of folks from PA, Ohio, and Jersey, there isn’t the infrastructure on and around Sandy to support a large group of anglers that are towing boats and needing lodging close buy or spots for bigger boats with water and power etc. It’s the biggest little port on the lake success fishing wise but it can’t handle large groups of people who want to stay by their boats. Trib wise these guys already drove many hours to get here. So the 15 minute ride from Hamlin to Greece where there are 100’s of rooms, and places to eat is no big deal. They aren’t lugging boats and trailers Around. We should all know by now that these management programs are never going to make 100 percent happy. Hang in there folks. I’m sure things will change again. Hopefully to get Dandy back on board. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Brian Sandy got the triple slam this year. No more kings, steelhead, and the exit of the domestic rainbow as a LO fish. They got an increase in Browns. I fought like crazy to not end the rainbows to no avail. My personal opinion and we’ll see, if bait fish have rebounded and from my time on the lake this year it seems so, like they did after the 1993 cut and build back up in early 2000 they’ll have an opportunity to increase stocking and hopefully put Sandy back on the schedule. Those of us that fish the tribs know Sandy has a huge following from all over the country and is a very busy port to fish the lake. It deserves to be considered a major asset port to the entire year round fishery Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

One last comment. I know one of the creel agents you spoke to. Known him since he was born. His dad and I taught him to fly fish and work the back of a trolling rig since he was seven. There isn’t a program that kid hasn’t mastered from fly and float fishing to rigger and junk rods. I also know how hard he’s worked to get his Fisheries Batchelor of Science degree. He’s worked as a steward for DEC USGS, and others the last four years. So while as a young Jedi he may not be as articulate as an older DEC tech he eats and sleeps this fishery. So let’s all hoist these kids up who paid some huge dues to get where they are. Finally they are there to collect data. The data that drives the decisions made by your regional managers. Charter and rec anglers need to spend the time providing the data. Especially our Capt’s. They realize most of you guys clean fish on the lake, but you can still (and I know many do) provide info on where your clients are from how many and what species were caught. While cleaning fish if you note a size length/ weight of the fish and maybe scrape a couple scales and put them in a plastic bag even more help. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

As far as the fishery being compared to the early 2000’s. It’s had its ups and downs for sure. Steelhead in 2014 died off in maybe 70 percent of the adult population not from whirling, but rather a vitamin B deficiency from eating emaciated alewives that’s were in poor health out on the lake. So it was easily four years before we had any rebound of decent trib steelhead fishing. And truthfully as one who spends over 100 days a season fishing for them can I say that the 20/21 season looked to be the first more normal fishery. In 2017 to 2019 the lake fishery for K ing salmon on the lake in my opinion was nothing short of spectacular because we were not feeling the cuts until last year and much heavier this year. We have what I’ve experienced as bigger fish on average but not as successful numbers wise. This fishery as all do go through cycles. So the only thing to do……. Just keep fishing. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

For Gambler, when they talked survival rates they are speaking about a larger pod of fish living through the smolt stage on their way to being true yearlings. So not looking at pen rearing success. In fact as you know they are releasing 100 percent of the kings in pens. Now I don’t disagree with you that Sandy was always a huge success and the fact that they have great stream access as these decisions also included as it should the entire depth and breath of the fishery meaning the fall trib fishery as well For salmon. With the stocking numbers down nearly 60 percent the strategy was to look at management plans to ensure the greatest survival. All should stay turned for the bait fish assessment which should be out shortly. If the bait rebounded then there will be considerations on increasing stocking and could put places like Sandy back on line. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I sat on the Stakeholder panel along with both charter boat captains, rec lake anglers and other trib stakeholders. Others may chime in. After several years of study on survival of stocked fish either in pens or direct stocked is that the highest survival rates was when larger groups of fish were stocked together in a particular location. Thus a survival management decision was made by the department to cutout smaller ports push the fish to larger rivers and stock a larger population of fish together. We did have a vote. One of the options was to keep stocking as it had been, and then two other options that grouped larger pods of fish at the larger ports. I spent my whole life from the 60’s fishing on or out of Sandy and truly hated to see it cut. But with the data provided by DEC on overall best survival the majority of stakeholders voted to the new plan hoping with such a heavy reduction in king salmon stocking we’d retain the highest survivor rates of kings. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Hey Tom , just finished fishing 10 days out of Wilson. We had a good week caught nothing but kings. We didn’t go all the way to the bar. Fished four mile, and down 4 to 6 miles out of port. There were a bunch of fish and bait all week in that 50 to 80 foot of water. We moved them pretty good until mid week, but then the boat traffic and high sun put them down. The last couple days we hunted the 200 to 250 depths and found a good class of fish many in the high teens low 20’s. We did finish in 10th place with a 24.10 salmon. Parked rigggers 100 to 120 down and divers out to 300 and had them snapping pretty good. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Nicely done. Can’t wait to be able to cross the border and swing your beautiful streams again. Tight lines. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

You’ll need a handful when you hear about the sea run Brook trout program. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

They just loaded the LL on Champlain. The LL are not only for fly fisherman. Many gear and float anglers catch them in the tribs, and many are caught in the lake. Having fished for them in many different places, LL salmon are truly happy in rivers. They enter as early as right now , I hooked a dime bright salmon in the Oak this past week that likely ran in with the better flush of water . There have been several caught on the Salmon river this month running in from the lake. They will enter all spring summer and fall when conditions are right. Last summer anglers fishing near the dam at the Oak caught some LL. They can tolerate water temps into the high 70’s. So this species can fill several nitches for a combination of both lake and river anglers. I’ve caught them trolling but in my humble opinion and my experience is they are made to be caught on rod and reel in a river where the angler is one on one with the fish without being pulled by the boat as well. Fish that I’ve experienced that have jumped high enough that I’m looking up at them. They are actually faster in the water than king salmon coupled with their acrobatics makes them a very worthy target. So the state and feds are working together to enhance this species for anglers to enjoy. At the same time they are not limiting any of the other species except for circumstances like bait fish issues the past three years. NYS has only been stocking 20k fish. With some added fish from Tunison who are experimenting with strains and sizes of fish through how long they hold them. In the end this study takes nothing away from the other species and provided though limited at the moment opportunity to catch another top level game fish. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

That’s exactly the reason they passed on I Bay. But Tunison at Cornell are raising fish a little longer and bigger before release to where they may be less of a bait target. No matter where the fish are stocked they have to survive predators . 2019 to 2020 trib creel census results of LL caught at Oak Orchard creek from fall to spring was 2700+. They stock the Oak fish in the harbor just several 100 yards from the open lake. Last spring DEC stocked the entire salmon river group at the mouth of the river to see if they get a great return like the oak gets by not having the fish run the river to the lake. They could do the same thing at IBay. We have natural repo of king salmon and steelhead in irondequoit creek. This creek is of the highest quality of any of our local tribs. Lots of access all the way to Fishers NY with much more canopy keep waters cool including many springs that seep into the bed of this Trib. However since no more stocking of Kings or steelhead at Sandy and the ending of stocking domestic rainbows in LO may be their reasoning. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United