King Davy

DavidA it’s unbelievable that the Salmon crowd historically has been the black eye of the fall trib fishery. It’s seems to have never gotten better. Although I truly see more ethical anglers these days. More for sure after the salmon season. I’ve been in meetings with Trib stakeholders and DEC to discuss the never ending failure of this type of behavior for decades. Law enforcement CO’s can and will hand out tickets for littering but of course they have to witness it first. It’s sadly a losing battle and I would be willing to bet most of these folks don’t throw their trash on their lawns or living rooms. In 1999 near when I got out of the lake guiding business and having been a river angler all my life, I decided I was going to get a group of the stakeholders together and we were going to put an end to this nonsense. We formed and international group (Canadians and US river fisherman) and our charter was to educate those poor souls who didn’t know how to or prove to those that didn’t care that a king salmon would bite a bait, lure, or fly and one didn’t need to snag them. This was five years after snagging had been outlawed. We met on a January snowy day at the Braddocks Bay hotel (many on here know the place). Carload of guys from Canada, and NY and we formed in this one meeting the Lake Ontario Steelhead Association. LOSA. A United international group. We had some of the top fly fishers ( one was on the US fly fishing team) some of the best gear guys from both shores float, and hardware guys, including one of the premier two hand casters in the country. For nearly 10 years we ran on the water seminars every spring up in the salmon river and had up to 60 participants per event working with our experts on all methods of trib fishing. The strategy was to teach as many as we could in hopes of them passing it on. We folded our group 10 years after the start up with simply an EPIC failure to meet our goals. We did lots of habitat work, stream clean ups, and took the proceeds from our seminars to push equipment back to DEC like office supplies printers copiers, gas cards for the technicians doing the trib creel census work, but as far as the big idea that we were going to fix the salmon season mess........ epic failure. KO’d. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Additionally I have spent the last 22 years fishing the most heavily regulated King Salmon fishery on the planet. Alaska. I’m sure some who read these pages have experienced what I’m talking about. You’ve saved your pennies for years to make that one trip of a life time to the Kenai where I’ve personally caught 50+ pound kings. You have a guide and a week of fishing the big river all lined up. You are excited beyond words. You board your 6 am flight out of Rochester arriving at Ted Stevens airport in Anchorage late afternoon and while you were in the air, they closed the king salmon fishery. That’s what happens to fisheries that depend on wild fish. (Like our Canadian brothers who depend heavily on wild reproduction of salmon and steelhead because they have the habitat on the north shore to produce a viable sport fishery) So why they shut down natel areas up these rivers, yet Not the entire river. And yes that’s why we absolutely need our hatchery system to be successful and nobody knows that more than the DEC. They monitor fish movement to the hatchery and water conditions with Brookfield every day, my friends at DEC are In countless meetings every week to assess the situation to include any and all emergency measures if needed. I doubt you scrutinize your dentist, surgeon, or airline pilot on how to do their job. These folks are scientists, let’s trust them to do their job first. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The thing with natural reproduction it can and has happened in any river or stream that male and female chinooks can find suitable spawning environments. But to date unless DEC has an annual scientific method/program to measure the success of Wild Vs Stocked yearly they won’t “over regulate” the Fall River fishery. And think about it ... it could spill over to the lake. If they clipped all stocked salmon every year (expensive, requires man power, and some what dangerous putting those little salmon through the trailer, yet much safer than doing the clipping by hand) And had a program like they do with involving anglers collecting coho noses etc. by having a trusted diary program where anglers are willing to participate and collect data on if every salmon they caught was clipped or not could they accurately put a number to wild vs stocked. That would involve all of us through the salmon fishing season lake and trib. Would be great right, think of the data that could be collected. And hard accurate data drives their decisions. You might ask how does regulation spill over on the lake. If DEC HAD to depend on wild stocks, there could be slot limits on kings. You could be under regulation to release all wild female salmon on the lake and tribs, salmon creel changes on both lake and tribs, closed seasons etc etc etc. Since we are no where near that, the state isn’t going to over regulate any part of the fishery. They had planned to start clipping hatchery fish again this spring but do to COVID-19 had to scrap those plans. Could this happen some day. Only if there was #1 enough budget money which we all know isn’t likely to happen in our seriously broke state, and increased man power which the DEC has failed to be able to hire (because of the YOY budget constraints). So we move on as we have. But if some of these programs could ever be launched with greater involvement with the stakeholders ( all of us), we’ll have to work together. Be great if we could get there now. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Whaler I lived at 7 Bayview Dr for a few years mid 80’s and also docked my boat at Burger Park. If you are a long time bay guy you must have known Eddie Burger. Started guiding when Pete Sheldon was running a boat out of his Bayview drive house. Scott is friends with my long time fishing buddy Gratson who I still fish with these days. Scott and his dad ran out of Sandy and had a boat near my friend Charlie Chick. Don’t know Scott at all but I know he’s been in the game a long time. And is respected by his peers. As far as Brian I know his wife very well as she used to work for my brother in law Dr Dan. She knows me best by my lousy teeth. I’ve been involved with both the lake and trib fishery since the late 60’s started by catching trout and salmon wading Russell Station as a teenager. Past president of the Western Lake Ontario Charter Boat Assoc, ( 22 years an active USCG licensed Capt.) and sat on the NYS sport Fishing Council. Was on staff and wrote a column for the Original Great lakes Fisherman mag and for seven years was the LO editor of New York Sportsman magazine. Having said all that, it doesn’t make me any more special than anybody else, but what all that activity did was get me a long time close to 35 year relationship with the DEC as they I guess, think I have a solid historical understanding of where we started... and find my input valid enough to involve me on our journey forward, along with other OG’s like Vince P and Bob S as a sounding board towards managing the fishery. I could care less if anybody on here likes me, but i don’t think it’s necessary to take personal shots at each other. It’s especially foolish if in the end we are all after the same thing a sound fishery. But that includes the entire landscape west to East open and trib waters. And I have definitely put my time in on fishing our waters. Meetings, seminars, workshops And on the water projects and have the respect of the guys running the show. It’s imperative that we achieve a sound year long fishery. You have to know that no matter how much lake guys or trib guys or both think one is more important than the other ... for the guys who manage it... it’s NOT. They have their eye on the target to have the whole program at the top of the game. So stating that NYS simply shuts down a marquee fishery, which by the way is now the busiest river in the US, and that those anglers have to step aside is disingenuous. No where on this board has anybody started a thread stating that lake guys should not catch steelhead because the tribs are managed for them. DEC knows better than anybody on this website what it takes to get their eggs. You have to trust they will make adjustments (and they have) if necessary to get fish to the hatchery. I got a report yesterday on how many salmon are at the hatchery right now. I’ll be happy to take your bets that they won’t be successful. And they have a plan B and it’s a solid plan. I’m involved in a bunch of programs with DEC to bolster the lake and inland trib fisheries. And have run projects with them and USF&W on our N.Y. waters to help improve the tribs that in the case of Lake Ontario has benefits to the open water fishery. Of course it’s not just me but a whole cast of stakeholders that work hard to make it better. These folks don’t just fish, they give back to the watershed like the 65,000 tress we’ve planted on the Salmon river in and around gravel spawning areas to reduce silt buildup for more successful spawning. I was personally a volunteer on the Oak, Sandy and Genny pen rearing for many years and now back involved with the Oak on steelhead. Many many stream cleanups to pick up after the slobs that unfortunately soil our river banks. Yankee Rick made a statement that the lake guys have had to pay the price never getting anything in return. And yes it’s tough to live through stocking reductions (like 1993 when salmon stocking was cut in half and not fully stocked again for over 7 years) and creel changes. BUT the trib community gave back two steelhead per man per day to the fishery back in 2004. And still 2 Vs 1 today and now two brown trout back to the lake per man per day. We weren’t forced to do that but realized to maintain the strength of the fishery for 12 months a year it was what was best overall. Especially for two species that got pressured on both the lake and the tribs essentially 12 months a year. We were forward thinking enough on what best benefits all. Not just rivers and streams. And the focus has to be for all, because that’s the page DEC is on... and will be forever. I suggest we all get in the same page. So Whaler Don’t Care if anybody likes me. But maybe you should know the person better before you judge them. I have an advantage with the long term relationship I have with the state. I see these threads going off the rails and I’m simply trying to make sure you have more up to date information. We have several documents you guys haven’t seen yet and it’s not our place to share them before DEC. For instance the 20+ rivers that get steelhead stocks that Gambler doesn’t think exists. If I share that I’ll make him look foolish. I wouldn’t do that on a public board. Don’t take my word for it ask one of the other panelists. If you folks are amped up so much that you want to take your shots, stop being keyboard cowboys, let’s meet for a drink and you can yell and scream all you want. I promise you I can give as good as I can get. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah I fished out of two and three ports each year right till the middle sometimes to end of Oct. So I guess I should be honored that your old timer buddies felt they had to track my activity. But they weren’t docked next to me in Wilson or the Genny so they may have missed a few trips. Plus the six years I ran my boat out of Braddocks from my house on the bay. Either way thank god I was able to manage all that loss for 22 years. At the end of the day Gambler I don’t believe I’ve ever taken a personal shot at you or your tackle business. Too bad you don’t have the class to debate our thoughts and I guess differences without getting personal. Especially since you don’t know me and candidly I you. But I guess that’s your character. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Just having fun. In this day an age we all need a chuckle. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Gambler.... I had a good laugh today. I was talking to my friends at the hatchery ( on the phone) while up fishing the river. As you all should know they read this site all the time to see what’s going on in the circus. They told me the guys at the hatchery started a go fund me page to help me recover from my failed charter business. I guess they only got about a buck fifty so far. So please buy my book folks. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Since you wanted to take a personal shot at me Brian...For the record. My part time charter career lasted 22 years . 1979 through 2001. Now I fish the lake with friends probably between 10 to 15 times a season. Was just out today. Before the issues in 17,19,and 20 lake usage was much lower than the hey days of the 80’s and 90’s. (When I was running my failed part time charter business 50 to 70 trips a year) I chose to sell my business to do three things. Travel with my high level athlete daughter to watch her play premier soccer and college basketball all over the US. Started a fly fishing school we still run today for wounded and disabled Vets with Oasis Adaptive Sports and Project Healing Waters, and annual fly fishing seminars for women recovering from breast cancer.... Third, travel the world to fish. From the Arctic Circle to the Seychelles, and do some seasonal guiding/trip hosting in Alaska. Please buy my recent book I published in 2019 “Fishing Adventures on the Fly with Dave & Lindsay Agness” on either Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I need the money to recover from my failed Charter business. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah Brian I sit on a panel that just got this data Tuesday night on steelhead fishing on the tribs . But the best thing for you to do is call Scott Prindle at the Cortland office and ask for the 2019 to 2020 trib data. It’s their reports to make public not mine. Vince is on this panel as well and he can comment how many bank anglers he sees every season on little 18 mile as well as the Niagara. He mentioned in the meeting of the significant usage in Niagara county. Scott has a break down of angler usage on every stream they surveyed from the 18 mile to the black. The numbers don’t lie. And you might be very surprised of the Sandy numbers. If the trib fishery was so small DEC wouldn’t be making significant reg changes. They did it to maintain viable fishing on the tribs for its long season. To ensure you and anyone else who has doubts simply reach out to the State. At the end of the day if the trib season wasn’t a viable part of the fishery DEC, USGS and USF&W would’t be spending so many hours on stream rehab projects, water quality impact studies as they have. Nor would the New York Power Authority just start a base flow program this past Saturday through the Oak and Sandy to induce fish in now and through the end of the canal closure in Nov. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Gambler you are WAY misinformed. Our Sandy is a Brown Trout Destination. People from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and every state in the NE. Out fitters from Colorado run trips to our own back yard all of Oct and Nov. we have the biggest on Avg brown trout in the US. The Genny Had the highest catch rates of steelhead per angler hour of all our rivers. All our tailwater fisheries there are 7 in total fish fish from Sept to end of April. Candidly they actually fish way into May if we have our usual slow spring warm up. There are currently 23 rivers along the South Shore that get steelhead stocked. Most of those streams get a run of brown trout. The eastern tribs not as much but from Sodus west every river, stream and trickle gets fished every day for at least until the smaller streams ice up for our brown trout. The tail water tribs are fished right to May. Take a drive to the salmon river in Feb when the temp is near or below 0 and the parking lots are full if the bite is on. The reason DEC was good with reducing the brown trout creel limit from 3 to 1 on our tribs is during their stream census when the agent talks to the folks fishing and crunched the numbers they realized this is the largest fall winter brown trout destination in the US. Bar none. And anglers are coming from as far away as the west coast. And several other countries not to just mean Canada. Last year’s steelhead fishery on the Salmon had anglers from 39 states, and 8 different countries. You guys seem to be basing all your understanding of this huge program on the six week salmon run. The real serious trib anglers show up in full force as soon as the browns and steelhead arrive. Normally by Columbus Day and they’ll be here till the opening of Turkey season. The Oak for its mile of wadable stream has the highest angler concentration in that mile of water than probably any other river in the NE and possibly the US when it’s brown trout time. You can’t find 10 feet to fish most days. And over 50% of the cars during that time frame are from out of state. It’s grown in leaps and bounds since 2004 when the state reduced the steelhead creel on the tribs from three to one. While there are guides working any and all these rivers the majority are bank guiding not boat fishing. And their dance cards are full. But don’t take my word for it simply call the DEC and get the data. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The value to the lake shore communities is the river season is 8 months long. And lots of local and out of state visitors who are spending their dollars on the very same food lodging,gas and tackle. It’s cash flow to these places that otherwise would turn them into ghost towns in the winter and early spring. At the end of the day the important thing is there is cash flow in the state from this fishery 12 months a year which allows many of businesses involved to keep their doors open instead of having a seasonal business. I’m sure the one thing we have in common is we all appreciate having this year long fishery. It’s a welcome relief from the daily trials and tribulations. Out fishing the G today, one fish, marked a ton. Saw a couple others caught. Sounds like up the river is starting to heat up. All the best folks. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yes I agree 2020, 19 and 17 had effect on boating hours. I’m looking at the state of the lake numbers reported each spring. Those are for trout and salmon trips only. (I think bass as well). They aren’t nearly 900k hours. That number might be all fishing trips to include pan fish pike etc. BUT it’s a great point that both the open water fishing, and the trib season are no worse than equal in effort despite the trib season occurring through the winter.....and all the hunting seasons and why DEC manages the trout and salmon fishery as a 12 month a year entity. Also DEC does river census every year in the salmon river, but only every five years on all the rest of the tribs from west to East. 2019 through spring of 2020 the trib effort was extremely high when they caught the entire trib landscape. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Rick anybody who fishes our tribs is a stakeholder which includes the 1000’s of out of state anglers who buys a license to fish NY , stay in the lodges and motels/hotels. Eat in the restaurants. Last year in September to Columbus Day the Salmon river alone had over 950k angler hours, twice more than the entire lake season and yes 2019 lake season suffered from high water but the avg angler hours on the lake the last several years has been between 3 and 400k. The Salmon river alone outpaces the lake effort. When you add in all the rest of the entire trib landscape the number can be 4x the lake effort. Don’t believe me call Cortland DEC and talk to Scott. I’m surprised as great a salmon angler as you are ( and I’m truly not patronizing you) you need to kill 3 steelhead per man. There are more total salmon in the lake than back in the 80’s and 90’s when we didn’t have the habitat that today produces millions of wild salmon hatches. You just put a report out on a tournament that you won where you were targeting two year old kings to win. Can’t eat your cake... and have it too. Once you kill that two year old..... he’ll never return as a three year old stager. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yes a stakeholder is anyone who uses the resource. And the overwhelming majority of people who use the lake and tributaries are recreational anglers. Do you really only want to be represented by those who make money off the resource when it comes to offering input in how the program is managed? Gill I’m sure Lucky has no problem with you knowing his name. Your work is done? Why didn’t you just ask him. How is that work? Lucky I think Gill wants to have you over for beers and BBQ Rick in our meeting with DEC Tuesday night they did disclose their plan B to recover salmon eggs if necessary. Several highly respected Charter Boat Capt’s were on the call. I was on the salmon river yesterday and while we can’t visit the hatchery I have friends who work there. According to my discussion there are hundreds of both Kings and cohos in the ladder. While the LFZ is closed you can still walk in and check it out. I did and saw several hundred salmon in there fully protected by the closure. The biggest issue right now is low water. Beaver Dam brook is a trickle so while several hundred fish have reached the hatchery the brook isn’t holding fish as usual since its to low. Which is probably why the fish are hanging in the LFZ. Anglers who wish to fish the river have every right to do so including fishing for salmon. Regardless of new regs nobody ever said since steelhead are managed for the tribs lake fishermen shouldn’t fish or catch them or keep them with in the limits. At some point after over 50 years of success in keeping this entire fishery Viable .... for all angler interest you folks need to trust our fishery managers and the highly capable biologists and technicians who work in DEC. They’ve certainly earned that trust and respect. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Gill T your narrative is getting old. We were asked to participate on a panel for both NYS, and also the Bi National panel by the Bureau Chief of Fisheries to represent Tributary initiatives. Charlie and I have 40 years of experience on this fishery both open waters and tribs including public involvement and service. I guess Hurst and LaPan feel we have valuable insight in that arena to offer. But why don’t you ask them why they asked our involvement. You seem intimidated by that since you are always taking shots. I know you don’t know me and I doubt you know Charlie. You’ve never had a face to face conversation with me. I couldn’t pick you out of a crowd of two. You seem to fear the aspect of the states Atlantic Salmon program. Truly sorry for your angst. Do your best to hang in there. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Nope. If you throw down the million you get the Joss Hole all to yourself. It wouldn’t be part of the DSR lease. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

DavidA all depends on what the deed to the land stipulates. I wasn’t in court way back when the judge made the ruling but what I understood was the land deed from way back in the 1700’s when this land was settled by the family, they owned both sides of the river and the river bottom was included. I assume the judge found the land deed to be authentic and why the ruling. Be careful to compare different rivers and watersheds legal access rights as they are usually unique in their own way. This was decided a long time ago I don’t see the sense in still debating this. Hey the Joss property which Barkley leases is up for sale. They want 1$ Million for 800 feet of frontage. Any takers? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I think we have to recheck the rules. I’ve never known that you couldn’t float through. I know of a few river guides that float through the DSR especially in spring. But they must have passes because they want to anchor and float fish or plug different sections. The issue today would be you couldn’t get a pool toy through the DSR without bottoming out this time of year with the flows. The ferc license calls for flows at 335 cfs. Now holding at 185 with the low Rez. With additional water from some small tribs the cfs under normal conditions might be 120 cfs greater. So maybe 450 cfs. Still at that rate there are several sections you’d have to get out. And with 250 people in their during salmon season why would anybody want to be in that mess with a boat. With most people standing in the flows and pocket water. The land owners pay taxes that include the acreage that is the bottom. So if you stand in it without permission you are trespassing. I know of many landowners that have creeks running through their properties that own both sides of a creek so if you think you can walk down the middle of it to jump ducks or deer etc, without permission... your trespassing. Don’t confuse this with a lake and the high water mark as a boundary. Small Rivers streams and trickles generally have two distinct shores and owners that own both or to separate owners where each may own to the center of the creek or river. Like many have said there’s another 10 miles of river upstream of the DSR. So if you dislike the situation go up river. Obviously the place fills up everyday during the salmon run because there are many who enjoy that water and are willing to pay to get on it... AND agree to play by the rules of the property.

Well i can tell you the fish scoot through the DSR pretty quickly. You have to be there on a special day where fish hold long enough to actually present a bait to them. Coho’s come through at warp speed and most Kings blast through there without stopping. They limit the numbers of anglers in the run. If you are a season pass holder you are never turned away. But after salmon season from late fall/winter through spring there is usually no more than 30 to 60 people in 2.5 miles. For me that’s worth every penny. It’s under management for pay to fish because the landowners were sick and tired of the slobs that walked on for free and trashed their land. Are all the farmers out there that offer deer leases any different. Ok the state didn’t stock the deer, but trout and salmon don’t swim into the DSR and stay there for very long. They are on a mission to come up river. And you are not allowed to kill a trout or Atlantic salmon on this property so nobody fishing there is taking fish out before free roam fishing comes into play. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I’m happy to do full disclosure. Gill didn’t know you were a lawyer besides being a DDS.(just kidding) Ok way back before it was day or season lease to fish both Barkley and a couple other land owners (3) owned property on one side of that 2.5 miles of water and Doug the length on the other side (north and south side). And between the Barkley and the other land owners they collectively pay taxes on and including the stream bed. Back to pre pay days. They decided to post it up and leaned towards not letting anybody fish it Why? Because the anglers who walked it freely did what? Trashed it every year. From human waste to tons and I mean metric tons of garbage that guess who had to clean up? Easy guess the land owners. Barkley talked the other land owners into leasing to him and he’d try to manage it, and to do so had to hire people to run the business. He created a dozen or so paying jobs in a economical poor area to manage the property, the several nice lodges bordering it, and run the fishing operation. Over the years it has gotten more expensive as almost any service these days, but he has created manicured trails. A welcome center so you can dress and undress in the dead of winter. Clean men and women’s restrooms, and a staff to walk the property to not only dismiss those fishing unethically, but also for safety measures in case of injury. DSR has been host to several veterans and CFR events at no charge and driven participants around the property who had physical issues to walk and wade. In 2014 when we were seeing a huge die off of steelhead, DEC used the DSR property to collect not only steelhead but especially salmon eggs to test for B1 deficiencies. That year we saw a huge number of salmon not going up river and DEC wondered if B1 deficiencies were present in the salmon since they didn’t appear to have the energy to run to the hatchery. The DSR property was the ideal place to do collect samples and Barkley welcomed them just as he does every year in the all important seining event to determine the annual salmon egg hatch. I am no longer a guide( never was a river guide) I fish his property because I get the best shot at fresh run fish that are much better biters than they will be up river after running the gauntlet for 10 miles. Much like many of you who lease private owners land to deer, duck and goose hunt. You do it because you want a safe, and semi private (semi because many of you lease with your friends) place to hunt. Many of those deer leases are WAY more expensive than fishing on the DSR. Finally I know of three other places on the Salmon where you either have to pay to fish their water, or you have to be staying at their lodge to access their property. Bottom line the DSR is pay to fish simply because “Sportsman” literally crapped all over their property and left enough garbage to fill a landfill. That Gill... is the full disclosure. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Last time DEC did a fin clip of hatchery raised salmon and then did a calculation upon their fall egg take, the natural reproduced fish inside the hatchery was greater than hatchery returns. My experience in the many places I’ve fished around the US and Canada is that wild reproduced fish generally had better survival instincts. DEC believed at the time that about 60% of the salmon population was wild. I bet if you asked them today that number would be even higher. But they certainly are much smaller upon entering the open waters of LO. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Absolutely. If spawning salmon get in any river or creek , eggs hatch late winter early (March) spring. Those fish are in the fingerling stage by April, when water in the tribs is generally in the high 40’s to low 50’s. They begin to make there way towards the lake in May and June. Faster if the water begins to warm up sooner. We tend to not name streams especially small ones on this site so I won’t call them out. You can’t miss these little par marked fish. As you step along the stream bed they’ll congregate behind you eating stream invertebrates you kick up. In study’s done by DEC many years ago they’ve done shore line netting in June and have found these naturals along shore that were smaller then the crop of hatchery raised fish. Let’s do some math just for the Salmon. They begin their seining project every spring late April, but all of May into June. Every week and they sample from Altmar right to where the salmon river enters the lake. A “banner” year is a result of 7 to 10 million successfully hatched fry. A reasonable percentage of survival is anywhere from 3 to 5 %. At 10 mill that anywhere from 350 to 500k additional adult fish. Now add in the dozens of rivers and streams on the south shore alone not to mention the highly successful North shore tribs and you have a lot of fish. If you think stocking 2 million fish at those same survival rates would produce the fishing we’ve enjoyed the last 10 plus years your kidding yourself. 2 mill stocked fish at a 5% survival rate is 100,000 fish. You think we had this magnificent fishing on just 100k adults from one end of the lake to the other? NFW. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I have information from Those that work at the hatchery and you know who they are. And witnessed the fish in the lower fly zone (many big fish) observing from the bank of the cemetery pool. And I watched many fish pass by in different sections of the river. While chinook are the marquee species on the lake and steelhead for the tribs you know steelhead are being caught in plenty of numbers in the lake as well they should be. Nobody ever said they shouldn’t be caught in the lake, but rather manage them for the long river season Same for salmon. We have natural repo of salmon in every trib and trickle of LO. I’m on dozens of them every spring and see YOY fish in streams I can jump across. Yankee is right makes managing that species much more difficult, but we aren’t going to run out of salmon on LO. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Here’s what’s going to happen. DEC isn’t going to shut down trib fishing for any species at the moment. As of right now if the water stays at 185 on the salmon river they have over 50 days of water with no additional rain events. There are building numbers of adult salmon in the lower fly zone and in the hatchery raceway. Fish are getting to the hatchery (was there last week with DEC checking on numbers of fish that were there) LFZ will be closed to angling till Nov. pretty much three weeks after the usual egg take. This water has thermal relief for these fish so you want them in there. DEC is reviewing alternate plans to collect eggs and milt if necessary. According to DEC biologists creek census from this past year (fall of 2019 through spring of 2020) nearly 70% of salmon caught by trib anglers are being released. Personally I’ve been on the salmon from the lower end to the top for two weeks and I’ve witnessed barely of handful of fish on stringers. Still with three years of cuts and a huge harvest of three and two year olds from the lake coupled with low water conditions we should expect lower returns. Except two of the last three years DEC has found a banner crop of wild salmon hatched in the salmon river. So while fishing may not be as heavily impacted with additional wild fish, those fish don’t necessarily seek the hatchery. Bottom line is this is a 12 month a year fishery all angler groups have a right to fish but trust DEC will make emergency adjustments to get their brood stock. Starting today NYPA will begin pulsing water from the canal to three popular western end tribs that will hopefully spread trib anglers out and create more opportunity to fish besides the Salmon. I was on the Genny this week. The flows are the lowest I’ve ever seen in my 45 years of fishing down there. Hardly any anglers giving it a try. Need lots of water to get all our other tribs fishing. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Five six years ago DEC while seining for Yoy chinooks found the first wild naturally spawned Atlantic Salmon in the Salmon River in probably close to 150 years. Anybody who loves sport fishing should think that’s pretty cool. Now does this mean we are going to have a self sustaining population of AS in the Salmon River? Sadly no. It Will in our life time require management from our fisheries groups. There is no more exciting fish to catch on the open waters of Lake Ontario than Chinook Salmon. And there in lies the only reason necessary to know they’ll never be replaced. But the other species have their place on both the open water and our magnificent tributaries. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United