King Davy

Why I admire you Rick, you’re willing to take the hard road for your clients wishes. It’s not only about the numbers for you and your crew. You guys are salmon fisherman through and through even as tough as it might be. Nicely done. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Sammygee I’ve been running around Alaska for the past 25 years. You have a better chance to actually king salmon fish if you fish out in Bristol Bay but then the Halibut experience isn’t as easily available. Kenai has the biggest kings on average along with the Kisseloff river that runs into the Kenai near Soldotna on the peninsula. The salmon fishery in Alaska is the most regulated fishery in the world. If the fish counters the Alaska Fish & Game department have in place at the mouth of the river are not showing enough fish have entered they shut the salmon fishing down immediately. The biggest risk for a fishing trip to Alaska is trying to get to fish Kenai Kings. In July you get huge runs of Sockeye and while not kings are real rockets for a fight on rod and reel. For my money Homer is the place to go out of for Halibut. The fleet of boats out of there are excellent. Plus it’s close to the Anchor river which gets a run if kings if you can fish them. Google Mark Glassmaker’s guided trips. He can provide the king fishing, halibut trips. And fly outs and he has excellent cabins right near the river. Mark is also deeply involved as a stakeholder in the King fishery management. He will have first hand knowledge of what is going on next year. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Don’t know Lucky. Maybe just to make it easy from a date perspective. I fished the river today. Steelhead showing down low hanging around the horde of salmon spawning. Fished the upper fly later and lots of spawners up there on gravel. Upper river not real busy except for Ellis cove. Few cars at trestle and sportsman’s. DSR was busy but this week they lowered the number of anglers by 100. Lots of room to fish, got schooled by two big dime bright bows. Saw some others caught. Definitely transitioning from the salmon crowd to the serious Steelheaders. I do know the hatchery takes early eggs and some later arrival fish eggs, so that might be the reason the LFZ is still closed.

No not till Nov 1. Talked to Fran and they’ve been throwing people out of there every day the last two weeks. They have a sign up saying it opens 11/1. As you know it’s crazy time up there. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

In all fairness with the extreme drought we had and warm water, my concern wasn’t about could the fish get to the hatchery but how would they do health wise in low warm water. Luckily while we didn’t get the rain we needed, we did get many cool and cold nights that lowered water temps into the 60’s in Sept. and down into the 50’s the past two weeks. Many years they can’t start egg take the week of the Columbus Day because water temps remain above 60 degrees. So we were fortunate to get those cold overnight temps into the 30’s for many days up in the Salmon River watershed. I’ve spent over 20 days on the water the last five weeks and I’m surprised by the number of salmon I’ve seen on local small tribs as well as the Salmon river. I didn’t expect to see the numbers I’ve seen this year after three years of stocking cuts. However with three years 17-19 of high fall and spring water I truly think we have a much greater natural population of fish than I ever imagined. I hope DEC can get to their king clipping program next spring. I think now more than ever we need to truly understand what the impact is of wild fish so the state can understand if we are recovering the forage numbers to return to traditional stocking numbers. There are tons of salmon spawning in the lower salmon river. Way more than I think many of us expected to see. I haven’t been in the upper spawning gravel for a couple weeks, but would figure since so many fish made it to the hatchery it would be loaded as well. Certainly a much bigger run after the lower return last year. Including our local streams. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Here’s the unofficial word from the hatchery ( obviously they want to ...have to announce this) but from reliable sources sounds like they met their king salmon egg take in three days. No idea what the goal was (haven’t heard what that number is ) but they are finished Coho’s are next and they have a huge group of coho’s in the hatchery and expect to easily meet their egg take goals. Word from some acquaintances who worked the egg take they sampled some really nice big fish. And from the cohos I’ve caught and have seen caught we have a nice healthy group of fish that many believe are a little larger than usual. So despite the low water and heavy fishing pressure the hatchery experienced a solid run of kings and cohos and will be in the process of raising them for next season. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

DavidA it’s unbelievable that the Salmon crowd historically has been the black eye of the fall trib fishery. It’s seems to have never gotten better. Although I truly see more ethical anglers these days. More for sure after the salmon season. I’ve been in meetings with Trib stakeholders and DEC to discuss the never ending failure of this type of behavior for decades. Law enforcement CO’s can and will hand out tickets for littering but of course they have to witness it first. It’s sadly a losing battle and I would be willing to bet most of these folks don’t throw their trash on their lawns or living rooms. In 1999 near when I got out of the lake guiding business and having been a river angler all my life, I decided I was going to get a group of the stakeholders together and we were going to put an end to this nonsense. We formed and international group (Canadians and US river fisherman) and our charter was to educate those poor souls who didn’t know how to or prove to those that didn’t care that a king salmon would bite a bait, lure, or fly and one didn’t need to snag them. This was five years after snagging had been outlawed. We met on a January snowy day at the Braddocks Bay hotel (many on here know the place). Carload of guys from Canada, and NY and we formed in this one meeting the Lake Ontario Steelhead Association. LOSA. A United international group. We had some of the top fly fishers ( one was on the US fly fishing team) some of the best gear guys from both shores float, and hardware guys, including one of the premier two hand casters in the country. For nearly 10 years we ran on the water seminars every spring up in the salmon river and had up to 60 participants per event working with our experts on all methods of trib fishing. The strategy was to teach as many as we could in hopes of them passing it on. We folded our group 10 years after the start up with simply an EPIC failure to meet our goals. We did lots of habitat work, stream clean ups, and took the proceeds from our seminars to push equipment back to DEC like office supplies printers copiers, gas cards for the technicians doing the trib creel census work, but as far as the big idea that we were going to fix the salmon season mess........ epic failure. KO’d. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Additionally I have spent the last 22 years fishing the most heavily regulated King Salmon fishery on the planet. Alaska. I’m sure some who read these pages have experienced what I’m talking about. You’ve saved your pennies for years to make that one trip of a life time to the Kenai where I’ve personally caught 50+ pound kings. You have a guide and a week of fishing the big river all lined up. You are excited beyond words. You board your 6 am flight out of Rochester arriving at Ted Stevens airport in Anchorage late afternoon and while you were in the air, they closed the king salmon fishery. That’s what happens to fisheries that depend on wild fish. (Like our Canadian brothers who depend heavily on wild reproduction of salmon and steelhead because they have the habitat on the north shore to produce a viable sport fishery) So why they shut down natel areas up these rivers, yet Not the entire river. And yes that’s why we absolutely need our hatchery system to be successful and nobody knows that more than the DEC. They monitor fish movement to the hatchery and water conditions with Brookfield every day, my friends at DEC are In countless meetings every week to assess the situation to include any and all emergency measures if needed. I doubt you scrutinize your dentist, surgeon, or airline pilot on how to do their job. These folks are scientists, let’s trust them to do their job first. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The thing with natural reproduction it can and has happened in any river or stream that male and female chinooks can find suitable spawning environments. But to date unless DEC has an annual scientific method/program to measure the success of Wild Vs Stocked yearly they won’t “over regulate” the Fall River fishery. And think about it ... it could spill over to the lake. If they clipped all stocked salmon every year (expensive, requires man power, and some what dangerous putting those little salmon through the trailer, yet much safer than doing the clipping by hand) And had a program like they do with involving anglers collecting coho noses etc. by having a trusted diary program where anglers are willing to participate and collect data on if every salmon they caught was clipped or not could they accurately put a number to wild vs stocked. That would involve all of us through the salmon fishing season lake and trib. Would be great right, think of the data that could be collected. And hard accurate data drives their decisions. You might ask how does regulation spill over on the lake. If DEC HAD to depend on wild stocks, there could be slot limits on kings. You could be under regulation to release all wild female salmon on the lake and tribs, salmon creel changes on both lake and tribs, closed seasons etc etc etc. Since we are no where near that, the state isn’t going to over regulate any part of the fishery. They had planned to start clipping hatchery fish again this spring but do to COVID-19 had to scrap those plans. Could this happen some day. Only if there was #1 enough budget money which we all know isn’t likely to happen in our seriously broke state, and increased man power which the DEC has failed to be able to hire (because of the YOY budget constraints). So we move on as we have. But if some of these programs could ever be launched with greater involvement with the stakeholders ( all of us), we’ll have to work together. Be great if we could get there now. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Whaler I lived at 7 Bayview Dr for a few years mid 80’s and also docked my boat at Burger Park. If you are a long time bay guy you must have known Eddie Burger. Started guiding when Pete Sheldon was running a boat out of his Bayview drive house. Scott is friends with my long time fishing buddy Gratson who I still fish with these days. Scott and his dad ran out of Sandy and had a boat near my friend Charlie Chick. Don’t know Scott at all but I know he’s been in the game a long time. And is respected by his peers. As far as Brian I know his wife very well as she used to work for my brother in law Dr Dan. She knows me best by my lousy teeth. I’ve been involved with both the lake and trib fishery since the late 60’s started by catching trout and salmon wading Russell Station as a teenager. Past president of the Western Lake Ontario Charter Boat Assoc, ( 22 years an active USCG licensed Capt.) and sat on the NYS sport Fishing Council. Was on staff and wrote a column for the Original Great lakes Fisherman mag and for seven years was the LO editor of New York Sportsman magazine. Having said all that, it doesn’t make me any more special than anybody else, but what all that activity did was get me a long time close to 35 year relationship with the DEC as they I guess, think I have a solid historical understanding of where we started... and find my input valid enough to involve me on our journey forward, along with other OG’s like Vince P and Bob S as a sounding board towards managing the fishery. I could care less if anybody on here likes me, but i don’t think it’s necessary to take personal shots at each other. It’s especially foolish if in the end we are all after the same thing a sound fishery. But that includes the entire landscape west to East open and trib waters. And I have definitely put my time in on fishing our waters. Meetings, seminars, workshops And on the water projects and have the respect of the guys running the show. It’s imperative that we achieve a sound year long fishery. You have to know that no matter how much lake guys or trib guys or both think one is more important than the other ... for the guys who manage it... it’s NOT. They have their eye on the target to have the whole program at the top of the game. So stating that NYS simply shuts down a marquee fishery, which by the way is now the busiest river in the US, and that those anglers have to step aside is disingenuous. No where on this board has anybody started a thread stating that lake guys should not catch steelhead because the tribs are managed for them. DEC knows better than anybody on this website what it takes to get their eggs. You have to trust they will make adjustments (and they have) if necessary to get fish to the hatchery. I got a report yesterday on how many salmon are at the hatchery right now. I’ll be happy to take your bets that they won’t be successful. And they have a plan B and it’s a solid plan. I’m involved in a bunch of programs with DEC to bolster the lake and inland trib fisheries. And have run projects with them and USF&W on our N.Y. waters to help improve the tribs that in the case of Lake Ontario has benefits to the open water fishery. Of course it’s not just me but a whole cast of stakeholders that work hard to make it better. These folks don’t just fish, they give back to the watershed like the 65,000 tress we’ve planted on the Salmon river in and around gravel spawning areas to reduce silt buildup for more successful spawning. I was personally a volunteer on the Oak, Sandy and Genny pen rearing for many years and now back involved with the Oak on steelhead. Many many stream cleanups to pick up after the slobs that unfortunately soil our river banks. Yankee Rick made a statement that the lake guys have had to pay the price never getting anything in return. And yes it’s tough to live through stocking reductions (like 1993 when salmon stocking was cut in half and not fully stocked again for over 7 years) and creel changes. BUT the trib community gave back two steelhead per man per day to the fishery back in 2004. And still 2 Vs 1 today and now two brown trout back to the lake per man per day. We weren’t forced to do that but realized to maintain the strength of the fishery for 12 months a year it was what was best overall. Especially for two species that got pressured on both the lake and the tribs essentially 12 months a year. We were forward thinking enough on what best benefits all. Not just rivers and streams. And the focus has to be for all, because that’s the page DEC is on... and will be forever. I suggest we all get in the same page. So Whaler Don’t Care if anybody likes me. But maybe you should know the person better before you judge them. I have an advantage with the long term relationship I have with the state. I see these threads going off the rails and I’m simply trying to make sure you have more up to date information. We have several documents you guys haven’t seen yet and it’s not our place to share them before DEC. For instance the 20+ rivers that get steelhead stocks that Gambler doesn’t think exists. If I share that I’ll make him look foolish. I wouldn’t do that on a public board. Don’t take my word for it ask one of the other panelists. If you folks are amped up so much that you want to take your shots, stop being keyboard cowboys, let’s meet for a drink and you can yell and scream all you want. I promise you I can give as good as I can get. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah I fished out of two and three ports each year right till the middle sometimes to end of Oct. So I guess I should be honored that your old timer buddies felt they had to track my activity. But they weren’t docked next to me in Wilson or the Genny so they may have missed a few trips. Plus the six years I ran my boat out of Braddocks from my house on the bay. Either way thank god I was able to manage all that loss for 22 years. At the end of the day Gambler I don’t believe I’ve ever taken a personal shot at you or your tackle business. Too bad you don’t have the class to debate our thoughts and I guess differences without getting personal. Especially since you don’t know me and candidly I you. But I guess that’s your character. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Just having fun. In this day an age we all need a chuckle. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Gambler.... I had a good laugh today. I was talking to my friends at the hatchery ( on the phone) while up fishing the river. As you all should know they read this site all the time to see what’s going on in the circus. They told me the guys at the hatchery started a go fund me page to help me recover from my failed charter business. I guess they only got about a buck fifty so far. So please buy my book folks. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Since you wanted to take a personal shot at me Brian...For the record. My part time charter career lasted 22 years . 1979 through 2001. Now I fish the lake with friends probably between 10 to 15 times a season. Was just out today. Before the issues in 17,19,and 20 lake usage was much lower than the hey days of the 80’s and 90’s. (When I was running my failed part time charter business 50 to 70 trips a year) I chose to sell my business to do three things. Travel with my high level athlete daughter to watch her play premier soccer and college basketball all over the US. Started a fly fishing school we still run today for wounded and disabled Vets with Oasis Adaptive Sports and Project Healing Waters, and annual fly fishing seminars for women recovering from breast cancer.... Third, travel the world to fish. From the Arctic Circle to the Seychelles, and do some seasonal guiding/trip hosting in Alaska. Please buy my recent book I published in 2019 “Fishing Adventures on the Fly with Dave & Lindsay Agness” on either Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I need the money to recover from my failed Charter business. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah Brian I sit on a panel that just got this data Tuesday night on steelhead fishing on the tribs . But the best thing for you to do is call Scott Prindle at the Cortland office and ask for the 2019 to 2020 trib data. It’s their reports to make public not mine. Vince is on this panel as well and he can comment how many bank anglers he sees every season on little 18 mile as well as the Niagara. He mentioned in the meeting of the significant usage in Niagara county. Scott has a break down of angler usage on every stream they surveyed from the 18 mile to the black. The numbers don’t lie. And you might be very surprised of the Sandy numbers. If the trib fishery was so small DEC wouldn’t be making significant reg changes. They did it to maintain viable fishing on the tribs for its long season. To ensure you and anyone else who has doubts simply reach out to the State. At the end of the day if the trib season wasn’t a viable part of the fishery DEC, USGS and USF&W would’t be spending so many hours on stream rehab projects, water quality impact studies as they have. Nor would the New York Power Authority just start a base flow program this past Saturday through the Oak and Sandy to induce fish in now and through the end of the canal closure in Nov. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Gambler you are WAY misinformed. Our Sandy is a Brown Trout Destination. People from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and every state in the NE. Out fitters from Colorado run trips to our own back yard all of Oct and Nov. we have the biggest on Avg brown trout in the US. The Genny Had the highest catch rates of steelhead per angler hour of all our rivers. All our tailwater fisheries there are 7 in total fish fish from Sept to end of April. Candidly they actually fish way into May if we have our usual slow spring warm up. There are currently 23 rivers along the South Shore that get steelhead stocked. Most of those streams get a run of brown trout. The eastern tribs not as much but from Sodus west every river, stream and trickle gets fished every day for at least until the smaller streams ice up for our brown trout. The tail water tribs are fished right to May. Take a drive to the salmon river in Feb when the temp is near or below 0 and the parking lots are full if the bite is on. The reason DEC was good with reducing the brown trout creel limit from 3 to 1 on our tribs is during their stream census when the agent talks to the folks fishing and crunched the numbers they realized this is the largest fall winter brown trout destination in the US. Bar none. And anglers are coming from as far away as the west coast. And several other countries not to just mean Canada. Last year’s steelhead fishery on the Salmon had anglers from 39 states, and 8 different countries. You guys seem to be basing all your understanding of this huge program on the six week salmon run. The real serious trib anglers show up in full force as soon as the browns and steelhead arrive. Normally by Columbus Day and they’ll be here till the opening of Turkey season. The Oak for its mile of wadable stream has the highest angler concentration in that mile of water than probably any other river in the NE and possibly the US when it’s brown trout time. You can’t find 10 feet to fish most days. And over 50% of the cars during that time frame are from out of state. It’s grown in leaps and bounds since 2004 when the state reduced the steelhead creel on the tribs from three to one. While there are guides working any and all these rivers the majority are bank guiding not boat fishing. And their dance cards are full. But don’t take my word for it simply call the DEC and get the data. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The value to the lake shore communities is the river season is 8 months long. And lots of local and out of state visitors who are spending their dollars on the very same food lodging,gas and tackle. It’s cash flow to these places that otherwise would turn them into ghost towns in the winter and early spring. At the end of the day the important thing is there is cash flow in the state from this fishery 12 months a year which allows many of businesses involved to keep their doors open instead of having a seasonal business. I’m sure the one thing we have in common is we all appreciate having this year long fishery. It’s a welcome relief from the daily trials and tribulations. Out fishing the G today, one fish, marked a ton. Saw a couple others caught. Sounds like up the river is starting to heat up. All the best folks. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yes I agree 2020, 19 and 17 had effect on boating hours. I’m looking at the state of the lake numbers reported each spring. Those are for trout and salmon trips only. (I think bass as well). They aren’t nearly 900k hours. That number might be all fishing trips to include pan fish pike etc. BUT it’s a great point that both the open water fishing, and the trib season are no worse than equal in effort despite the trib season occurring through the winter.....and all the hunting seasons and why DEC manages the trout and salmon fishery as a 12 month a year entity. Also DEC does river census every year in the salmon river, but only every five years on all the rest of the tribs from west to East. 2019 through spring of 2020 the trib effort was extremely high when they caught the entire trib landscape. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Rick anybody who fishes our tribs is a stakeholder which includes the 1000’s of out of state anglers who buys a license to fish NY , stay in the lodges and motels/hotels. Eat in the restaurants. Last year in September to Columbus Day the Salmon river alone had over 950k angler hours, twice more than the entire lake season and yes 2019 lake season suffered from high water but the avg angler hours on the lake the last several years has been between 3 and 400k. The Salmon river alone outpaces the lake effort. When you add in all the rest of the entire trib landscape the number can be 4x the lake effort. Don’t believe me call Cortland DEC and talk to Scott. I’m surprised as great a salmon angler as you are ( and I’m truly not patronizing you) you need to kill 3 steelhead per man. There are more total salmon in the lake than back in the 80’s and 90’s when we didn’t have the habitat that today produces millions of wild salmon hatches. You just put a report out on a tournament that you won where you were targeting two year old kings to win. Can’t eat your cake... and have it too. Once you kill that two year old..... he’ll never return as a three year old stager. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yes a stakeholder is anyone who uses the resource. And the overwhelming majority of people who use the lake and tributaries are recreational anglers. Do you really only want to be represented by those who make money off the resource when it comes to offering input in how the program is managed? Gill I’m sure Lucky has no problem with you knowing his name. Your work is done? Why didn’t you just ask him. How is that work? Lucky I think Gill wants to have you over for beers and BBQ Rick in our meeting with DEC Tuesday night they did disclose their plan B to recover salmon eggs if necessary. Several highly respected Charter Boat Capt’s were on the call. I was on the salmon river yesterday and while we can’t visit the hatchery I have friends who work there. According to my discussion there are hundreds of both Kings and cohos in the ladder. While the LFZ is closed you can still walk in and check it out. I did and saw several hundred salmon in there fully protected by the closure. The biggest issue right now is low water. Beaver Dam brook is a trickle so while several hundred fish have reached the hatchery the brook isn’t holding fish as usual since its to low. Which is probably why the fish are hanging in the LFZ. Anglers who wish to fish the river have every right to do so including fishing for salmon. Regardless of new regs nobody ever said since steelhead are managed for the tribs lake fishermen shouldn’t fish or catch them or keep them with in the limits. At some point after over 50 years of success in keeping this entire fishery Viable .... for all angler interest you folks need to trust our fishery managers and the highly capable biologists and technicians who work in DEC. They’ve certainly earned that trust and respect. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Gill T your narrative is getting old. We were asked to participate on a panel for both NYS, and also the Bi National panel by the Bureau Chief of Fisheries to represent Tributary initiatives. Charlie and I have 40 years of experience on this fishery both open waters and tribs including public involvement and service. I guess Hurst and LaPan feel we have valuable insight in that arena to offer. But why don’t you ask them why they asked our involvement. You seem intimidated by that since you are always taking shots. I know you don’t know me and I doubt you know Charlie. You’ve never had a face to face conversation with me. I couldn’t pick you out of a crowd of two. You seem to fear the aspect of the states Atlantic Salmon program. Truly sorry for your angst. Do your best to hang in there. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United