King Davy

Nope. If you throw down the million you get the Joss Hole all to yourself. It wouldn’t be part of the DSR lease. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

DavidA all depends on what the deed to the land stipulates. I wasn’t in court way back when the judge made the ruling but what I understood was the land deed from way back in the 1700’s when this land was settled by the family, they owned both sides of the river and the river bottom was included. I assume the judge found the land deed to be authentic and why the ruling. Be careful to compare different rivers and watersheds legal access rights as they are usually unique in their own way. This was decided a long time ago I don’t see the sense in still debating this. Hey the Joss property which Barkley leases is up for sale. They want 1$ Million for 800 feet of frontage. Any takers? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I think we have to recheck the rules. I’ve never known that you couldn’t float through. I know of a few river guides that float through the DSR especially in spring. But they must have passes because they want to anchor and float fish or plug different sections. The issue today would be you couldn’t get a pool toy through the DSR without bottoming out this time of year with the flows. The ferc license calls for flows at 335 cfs. Now holding at 185 with the low Rez. With additional water from some small tribs the cfs under normal conditions might be 120 cfs greater. So maybe 450 cfs. Still at that rate there are several sections you’d have to get out. And with 250 people in their during salmon season why would anybody want to be in that mess with a boat. With most people standing in the flows and pocket water. The land owners pay taxes that include the acreage that is the bottom. So if you stand in it without permission you are trespassing. I know of many landowners that have creeks running through their properties that own both sides of a creek so if you think you can walk down the middle of it to jump ducks or deer etc, without permission... your trespassing. Don’t confuse this with a lake and the high water mark as a boundary. Small Rivers streams and trickles generally have two distinct shores and owners that own both or to separate owners where each may own to the center of the creek or river. Like many have said there’s another 10 miles of river upstream of the DSR. So if you dislike the situation go up river. Obviously the place fills up everyday during the salmon run because there are many who enjoy that water and are willing to pay to get on it... AND agree to play by the rules of the property.

Well i can tell you the fish scoot through the DSR pretty quickly. You have to be there on a special day where fish hold long enough to actually present a bait to them. Coho’s come through at warp speed and most Kings blast through there without stopping. They limit the numbers of anglers in the run. If you are a season pass holder you are never turned away. But after salmon season from late fall/winter through spring there is usually no more than 30 to 60 people in 2.5 miles. For me that’s worth every penny. It’s under management for pay to fish because the landowners were sick and tired of the slobs that walked on for free and trashed their land. Are all the farmers out there that offer deer leases any different. Ok the state didn’t stock the deer, but trout and salmon don’t swim into the DSR and stay there for very long. They are on a mission to come up river. And you are not allowed to kill a trout or Atlantic salmon on this property so nobody fishing there is taking fish out before free roam fishing comes into play. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I’m happy to do full disclosure. Gill didn’t know you were a lawyer besides being a DDS.(just kidding) Ok way back before it was day or season lease to fish both Barkley and a couple other land owners (3) owned property on one side of that 2.5 miles of water and Doug the length on the other side (north and south side). And between the Barkley and the other land owners they collectively pay taxes on and including the stream bed. Back to pre pay days. They decided to post it up and leaned towards not letting anybody fish it Why? Because the anglers who walked it freely did what? Trashed it every year. From human waste to tons and I mean metric tons of garbage that guess who had to clean up? Easy guess the land owners. Barkley talked the other land owners into leasing to him and he’d try to manage it, and to do so had to hire people to run the business. He created a dozen or so paying jobs in a economical poor area to manage the property, the several nice lodges bordering it, and run the fishing operation. Over the years it has gotten more expensive as almost any service these days, but he has created manicured trails. A welcome center so you can dress and undress in the dead of winter. Clean men and women’s restrooms, and a staff to walk the property to not only dismiss those fishing unethically, but also for safety measures in case of injury. DSR has been host to several veterans and CFR events at no charge and driven participants around the property who had physical issues to walk and wade. In 2014 when we were seeing a huge die off of steelhead, DEC used the DSR property to collect not only steelhead but especially salmon eggs to test for B1 deficiencies. That year we saw a huge number of salmon not going up river and DEC wondered if B1 deficiencies were present in the salmon since they didn’t appear to have the energy to run to the hatchery. The DSR property was the ideal place to do collect samples and Barkley welcomed them just as he does every year in the all important seining event to determine the annual salmon egg hatch. I am no longer a guide( never was a river guide) I fish his property because I get the best shot at fresh run fish that are much better biters than they will be up river after running the gauntlet for 10 miles. Much like many of you who lease private owners land to deer, duck and goose hunt. You do it because you want a safe, and semi private (semi because many of you lease with your friends) place to hunt. Many of those deer leases are WAY more expensive than fishing on the DSR. Finally I know of three other places on the Salmon where you either have to pay to fish their water, or you have to be staying at their lodge to access their property. Bottom line the DSR is pay to fish simply because “Sportsman” literally crapped all over their property and left enough garbage to fill a landfill. That Gill... is the full disclosure. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Last time DEC did a fin clip of hatchery raised salmon and then did a calculation upon their fall egg take, the natural reproduced fish inside the hatchery was greater than hatchery returns. My experience in the many places I’ve fished around the US and Canada is that wild reproduced fish generally had better survival instincts. DEC believed at the time that about 60% of the salmon population was wild. I bet if you asked them today that number would be even higher. But they certainly are much smaller upon entering the open waters of LO. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Absolutely. If spawning salmon get in any river or creek , eggs hatch late winter early (March) spring. Those fish are in the fingerling stage by April, when water in the tribs is generally in the high 40’s to low 50’s. They begin to make there way towards the lake in May and June. Faster if the water begins to warm up sooner. We tend to not name streams especially small ones on this site so I won’t call them out. You can’t miss these little par marked fish. As you step along the stream bed they’ll congregate behind you eating stream invertebrates you kick up. In study’s done by DEC many years ago they’ve done shore line netting in June and have found these naturals along shore that were smaller then the crop of hatchery raised fish. Let’s do some math just for the Salmon. They begin their seining project every spring late April, but all of May into June. Every week and they sample from Altmar right to where the salmon river enters the lake. A “banner” year is a result of 7 to 10 million successfully hatched fry. A reasonable percentage of survival is anywhere from 3 to 5 %. At 10 mill that anywhere from 350 to 500k additional adult fish. Now add in the dozens of rivers and streams on the south shore alone not to mention the highly successful North shore tribs and you have a lot of fish. If you think stocking 2 million fish at those same survival rates would produce the fishing we’ve enjoyed the last 10 plus years your kidding yourself. 2 mill stocked fish at a 5% survival rate is 100,000 fish. You think we had this magnificent fishing on just 100k adults from one end of the lake to the other? NFW. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I have information from Those that work at the hatchery and you know who they are. And witnessed the fish in the lower fly zone (many big fish) observing from the bank of the cemetery pool. And I watched many fish pass by in different sections of the river. While chinook are the marquee species on the lake and steelhead for the tribs you know steelhead are being caught in plenty of numbers in the lake as well they should be. Nobody ever said they shouldn’t be caught in the lake, but rather manage them for the long river season Same for salmon. We have natural repo of salmon in every trib and trickle of LO. I’m on dozens of them every spring and see YOY fish in streams I can jump across. Yankee is right makes managing that species much more difficult, but we aren’t going to run out of salmon on LO. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Here’s what’s going to happen. DEC isn’t going to shut down trib fishing for any species at the moment. As of right now if the water stays at 185 on the salmon river they have over 50 days of water with no additional rain events. There are building numbers of adult salmon in the lower fly zone and in the hatchery raceway. Fish are getting to the hatchery (was there last week with DEC checking on numbers of fish that were there) LFZ will be closed to angling till Nov. pretty much three weeks after the usual egg take. This water has thermal relief for these fish so you want them in there. DEC is reviewing alternate plans to collect eggs and milt if necessary. According to DEC biologists creek census from this past year (fall of 2019 through spring of 2020) nearly 70% of salmon caught by trib anglers are being released. Personally I’ve been on the salmon from the lower end to the top for two weeks and I’ve witnessed barely of handful of fish on stringers. Still with three years of cuts and a huge harvest of three and two year olds from the lake coupled with low water conditions we should expect lower returns. Except two of the last three years DEC has found a banner crop of wild salmon hatched in the salmon river. So while fishing may not be as heavily impacted with additional wild fish, those fish don’t necessarily seek the hatchery. Bottom line is this is a 12 month a year fishery all angler groups have a right to fish but trust DEC will make emergency adjustments to get their brood stock. Starting today NYPA will begin pulsing water from the canal to three popular western end tribs that will hopefully spread trib anglers out and create more opportunity to fish besides the Salmon. I was on the Genny this week. The flows are the lowest I’ve ever seen in my 45 years of fishing down there. Hardly any anglers giving it a try. Need lots of water to get all our other tribs fishing. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Five six years ago DEC while seining for Yoy chinooks found the first wild naturally spawned Atlantic Salmon in the Salmon River in probably close to 150 years. Anybody who loves sport fishing should think that’s pretty cool. Now does this mean we are going to have a self sustaining population of AS in the Salmon River? Sadly no. It Will in our life time require management from our fisheries groups. There is no more exciting fish to catch on the open waters of Lake Ontario than Chinook Salmon. And there in lies the only reason necessary to know they’ll never be replaced. But the other species have their place on both the open water and our magnificent tributaries. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Thanks Andy, The issue the way I see it is the misinformation always floating around between AS and PS. Lake Ontario tribs are not as capable of hosting AS in a traditional manor like many of the Michigan and Huron tribs. The AS program is not and has never intended to be in competition with PS. They are in a nitch all their own. They were never meant to be a staple species on the lake but rather an opportunity on our tribs. Especially in summer and fall fishing. Yet traditional lake anglers can catch them as well. We do have a handful of rivers that can sustain and support these fish. But conditions have to align with habitat improvements. And they actually are starting to come together. Many seem to be threatened by this program with respects to taking something away from the PS. The Feds are doing all the heavy lifting on AS with support from DEC. As far as the PS being replaced by another species, It never has or ever will unless we have complete forage crash of our alewife population which In my experience of now 50 years fishing LO and its tribs, will never happen as it did in the upper lakes. I say that because In my opinion our DEC has their focus aligned to support the alewife forage base. They stick to what the science tells them about the health of the bait fish population. Thus they haven’t let the forage topple over. There is some pain in those management decisions but as the forage bounces back and it already might have and I believe will... the stocking numbers of PS will also return to target numbers. The more diverse the fishery the better in my opinion. Overall we have the environment that can support all. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The atlantics in the St Mary’s running into Huron feed on Smelt, huge caddis and Hex hatches. And they grow into the 20 pound ranges. They’ll feed on different shiners as well. I’ve visited the Hatchery at LSSU. Roger Griel the biologist and professor took 15 years to find a strain of AS that would imprint and return to his hatchery. They are a tricky fish to raise in captivity. While the LO program has gone on for many years it’s been about the last 6/7 that DEC, USGS, and USF&W have gotten their scientists working in conjunction of a program. As we speak this week USF&W and DEC are floating the Salmon River. They are investigating thermal zones of colder water in the Salmon. There are several. There has been several stream habitat projects on the Salmon the last few years directed by USF&W. When they locate and mark these thermal relief sites even in the dead of summer, it may provide opportunity to do some rehab work to create solid holding areas for AS. You have to understand while AS enter the SR as early as April and May, they don’t spawn till Oct/Nov. And King, Coho salmon and steelhead would also benefit especially the early runners while the water is still too warm could also Seek these thermal refuge areas and not die before they spawn or reach the hatchery. Just so I don’t confuse anyone. All our State raised AS for the finger lakes and LO come from our Adirondack hatchery. Altmar does not handle these fish from the egg stage. And then the Cornell USGS program at Tunison. Anyway Instead of having a big slug of fish up near the hatchery in a large spring fed thermal zone. They’re Looking to spread the fish out and truly create a better summer fishery. They already host a wonderful summer brown trout fishery. Like I said three Govt groups doing the science to provide another option for anglers year round. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Not sure what they are doing at UM on the landlock program. The 5 Star program is at Lake Superior State University (LSSU). Check out their site and live camera in the St Mary’s. They are getting returns in the several 1000’s. But the St Marys which is the river that drains Lake Superior generally has cold water throughout the summer which creates favorable habitat for returns. UM is probably heading the salmon program that has created a late summer fall and spring fishery on the PM and other noteworthy Michigan rivers. NYS only stocks 60k AS. They do get additional fish from Tunison at Cornell. These fish are still being studied for best results according to strains stocked. There are several that have been tried. Including DEC and USGS capturing returning males and females in the Salmon And trucking them to Tunison to spawn. Thus starting to stock fish who are descendants of adults that returned to the Salmon. Last week DEC put a camera in a thermal relief area of the salmon and found a few hundred salmon. Trib creel results from Oak Orchard from Sept last year through April this year resulted in reports of over 2,500 AS caught. I caught many both bright and spawning colored up hook jawed fish that put on spectacular shows on a rod and reel in the fall through the dead of winter. Is the program going to rival the pacific fishery, no and that’s not the goal. With our limited habitat on the south shore rivers the goal is to try and create a river fishery on the few rivers that can support them. There are four of five in that category. They are icing on the cake for the lake fishery. They aren’t the same fighter being pulled on behind a trolling boat IMHO. But they will show you why they are considered one of the greatest game fish around the world when caught in a river. In essence they are trying (and are having success) to create another sport fishing option. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

For a few years I ran a big corporate charter group out of the Westinghouse factory In Pittsburgh. We had 100 guys come in on two trailway busses. I had 25 Charter Captains work that gig and we even held a big fish tournament. Joe was always one of the boats that participated and was always eager to help with the details. After awhile Joe took that group over and they continued to come up and enjoy LO. RIP Capt. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

My biggest on the lake many years ago was 16 pounds caught right in front of the Oak during the Spring ESLO. My biggest in a river was also in that 15/16 pound range on the Salmon River three years ago on May 1. Land locks are only stocked in two places these days. The Salmon River, and Oak Orchard. Creel Census data from this years trib study points to over 2k caught from fall of 2019 to today on the Oak alone. Now what that means that a good number of Salmon were in the Oak and caught several times. Last month I caught three in one outing, with two of them post spawn and over 25 inches. And I would agree they are a whole different sporting experience caught on a rod and reel in a river VS being pulled in from a moving boat. Water temp last month on the day I caught those fish was 34 degrees and they were five feet in the air several times. Caught one a couple years ago in the Genny that jumped 14 times. And why they are considered the greatest river sport fish anyway around the world. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah Bob nobody wishes this prey situation would right itself anymore than I and I’m sure everyone feels that way. It’s not just that good salmon fishing takes pressure off steelhead, it’s the solid runs of kings into rivers that attract steelhead from the lake months before they are actually ready to spawn. To include non spawning scout rainbows that are attracted to the dinner table of eggs and flesh. I’ve spent a lot of time in the last 20 years all over Alaska. There’s a reason that king salmon and sockeye are the sacred saviors of those fisheries. They feed the trout and re-fertilize the habitat. I know you guys will catch steelhead off shore. You guys have every right to. Bob I believe this reg is trying to balance the heat they’re going to take if the salmon fishing gets difficult. You and I lived through this last time. And you and I and many others had to fish for all species cause the salmon numbers were down. And reading the reg rational that’s what it looks like. The guys I fish with and or are acquaintances have no ill feelings towards guys fishing the lake and how they fish or what they fish for. But we still want a shot at these marvelous game fish throughout the fall, winter and spring. I truly believe that DEC is trying to keep both environments viable especially through this difficult bait fish situation. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yup I’ve met him. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Not saying question shouldn’t be welcome. Saying the nasty behaviors yelling and all that has gone on at some of these meetings is highly unprofessional and not very civilized. And if you’ve been to enough of them then you’ve seen it. We have to respect each other. Then and only then do we have a true partnership. DEC is a group of appointed positions, yes by elected officials but do we not think a measure of due diligence is enacted to make those appointments? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

One other thing. DEC is under no obligation to hold all these public meetings, to show up to be scrutinized by those who don’t like their news. They do it because they care what we think. I know they listen and consider our feed back. BUT... they have a lot of data, 51 years of past history that has tendencies with results that match up with past, existing, and probable future results to govern their management decisions. They will be the first ones to tell you not every decision they’ve made was dead on perfect, but they’ve had a lot more wins than loses. They are up against the ultimate player. Who always gets the best hand ....Mother Nature. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Rick, I guess you should ask DEC these questions. However They can’t participate in coming on this site. So ask to speak to them. I’ve put what my “assumptions” are on why the current proposal. But I’m guessing. I’m guessing at what would make sense to me on why, which included the history of the 90’s early 2000 when the steelhead fishery in the tribs ultimately went south because of the increased harvest on the lake due to diminished salmon fishing success. Serious shortfalls of steelhead to the hatchery back in those days. The crash of the adult steelhead fishery in 2014, and 15 from the poisonous alewives. We still haven’t fully recovered to the fishing we had before the die off. Finally everyone who attended any state of the lake meetings saw the statement DEC led the presentation with. They recognize the two marquee species targeted by all stakeholders both lake and tribs are king salmon in the lake and steelhead in our rivers. Which makes up the majority of the interest in our 12 month a year sport fishery. From the very beginning of this program in the late 60’s has this been the basis of management strategy. Again my take... right, wrong, or indifferent is that in the face of another probable down turn in salmon fishing success after three years of cuts, (and we all await what’s next) still trying to get the steelhead fishery fully on its feet, they are trying to manage for opportunity in that year long sport fishery. It’s clear there are many that don’t agree with this direction. But I know we can’t get this back to where everyone is happy until we get through this predator prey issue and have full salmon stocking again. That takes pressure off trout species, allowing pretty stellar fishing all year long. I am 100% in agreement that the fishery only becomes fabulous again if we have a full fledged king salmon program. Everything else falls into place when that’s good. Last thing, our fishery managers, scientists, biologists, technicians, and staff have kept this fishery viable for 51 years through all these obstacles. At what point are you naysayers going to trust the professionals they are? Every other Great Lakes fishery has crashed hard, except this one. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Just a couple of corrections here. The 25” size limit is up for comment that is a tributary reg only. Does not include the open waters of Lake Ontario. Lake stays at 21”. Clarification- Bob’s statement in the copy of one of his posts above that “they” are now coming for our lake creel on steelhead. The “they” is not the tributaries stakeholders. He knows as well as everyone else in that room we never asked for a creel reduction in the lake. We did seek the 25” limit for lake and tribs and it was not accepted. DEC took all the discussion from the panel, held several internal meetings with regional managers and staff, also looked at past history of what other domino’s fell during the last round of King salmon cuts from the 90’s to early 2000’s. The steelhead fishery on the rivers was bleak at best returns to the hatchery impacted and they came back with this regulation. That’s how we got to this point. Anybody who thinks trib stakeholders went in demanding creel cuts on the lake is simply misinformed. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

There are dozens of web boards up and down the lake from tackle shops to lodging, etc that have daily fishing reports on all these rivers not to mention Instagram, FB etc. DEC is doing stream creel surveys this year from 18 mile to the Black River. Talked to the young lady last week who was touring the western tribs. She’s done 800 interviews on Sandy alone since first of Sept. There are articles in river fishing magazines that name many rivers in this area. The salmon river , save the Kenai in Alaska is the busiest river in the US. I used to get annoyed when these waterways were mentioned but in reality it’s public news every single day. There is no stopping it. I spend a lot of my fall time fishing the sound for bass and tuna or the FL because I can’t get close to the LO smaller or medium size rivers and spend most of my time fishing them once the weather gets nasty. And this year winter started first of November. Crowded rivers are a lot harder to fish then a busy day on the lake. But it’s a lost cause to sit around waiting for people to go away. Just go, set your expectations realistically and fish. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United