Sk8man

Wayne you have a PM

Runnings has the one for the Nanook....I think it was about $60. The Clam site also has them.

I guess the key to understanding this situation may be in viewing the whole ecosystem of the lake and its surroundings as an interrelated ecosystem where changes in any one part of it may affect other parts adversely and some basic building blocks being screwed up (whether too numerous or too limited) may upset the whole "apple cart" in terms of the necessary balance required. As was noted in the fifties and early to mid sixties phosphates in laundry detergents and other products being dumpted into the lakes increased weed growth tremendously as it is a "bio limiting" factor and many other nutirents going into the lake can disrup things as well (e.g.nitrates) and photosysthesis rates can change markedly in response to water clarity and changes in nutrient levels.

Clear water can be associated with water health but it also can be deceptive in that chemical composition, specific nutrient levels, toxin availability and dispersion, and as importantly bottom composition changes and silt deposition can still be adversely affecting things without it being visibly apparent. The fact that there is very little life visibly present in the shallows e.g. small fish of multiple species and minnows, clusters of crayfish and bugs of various types is highly suggestive of problems other than just lamprey levels although admittedly it isevidently a significant problem in Seneca right now as it was in Cayuga. There used to be bluegills, sunfish, bass, pickerel and pike all over the place in the shallows in years past but now it is basically devoid of life and it points to not only the severity of the problems but the extent of it throughout the shallow areas of the lake visible to the naked eye. The distribution and composition of weed growth also appears to have changed radically. I too have collected diary info and on multiple lakes for about 50 years and the lampreys do in fact greatly affect the fishing but there is a lot more going on than that.....but is is a "stressor" for sure. Keuka is a good example of what I am talking about ....no lampreys present but the lake is in trouble and fishing is severely impacted.

It is good to hear a firsthand account of plentiful sawbellies, and with both the diporeia and the sawbellies distribution in the lake may also be a critical factor and perhaps more so at certain times of the year.Distribution changes could also lead to inaccuracies in estimating the bait population. Again this is a complex set of problems going on.....

It may underscore what the article mentioned but it also may mean that the fish are desperate for food from lack of availability or for some reason being incapable of locating or feeding on the normal forage base. I think this is happening on Keuka and that the lakers are feeding on the shrimp as well as the small percch and young of other and perhaps their own species.other sources and if so it is just a matter of time before it takes its toll on the diporeia. .I also wonder whether the huge clouds we see during the summer months that folks interpret to be baitfish may in fact be highly compacted or concentrated water fleas and the standard bait may not be as plentiful as some assume them to be.

When I earlier mentioned the missing link in the foodchain I couldn't remember the name of the specific organism I was referencing but I later remembered and also an article I had run across a while back that I think may shed light on one of the factors possibly relevent to Seneca. The organism is an invertebrate or crustacean called diporeia or freshwater shrimp. It is basically a "building block" and essential link in the fishery food chain. Although this article primarily concerns Lake Michigan and the Great Lakes it is also of concern to the on-going issues with the Finger Lakes but the exact status of things may be in question at the moment as the article was from several years ago and I'm wondering if there has maaybe been a recent adverse downward change in the levels of diporeia or concentrations dispersed diffferently since that time which may be severely impacting the fishery. Note specifically the materiall toward the end referencing the Finger Lakes https://mynorth.com/2008/03/lake-michigans-vanishing-shrimp/

Thx captain Ron

VERY cool!

My take on it is that the problems with Seneca in particular and many of the Finger Lakes for that matter is a compound and complex set of issues and problems;not a single "silver bullet" factor. Many of the observations made by people fishing and living along the lake over time suggest that: the general rise in environmental temperatures over the past decades may have influenced things, the introduction of multiple invasive species, greatly increased development along the shores, the general lack of burms to hold back agricultural and vineyard run-off, increased introduction of lawn fertilizers and pesticides, possible leeching of salt both road salt with it's harmful chemicals and possibly that from the under lake caverns, the multiple overflow problems with sewage dumped into the lake, and possibly numerous other factors have heavily stressed the lakes and watersheds deteriorating their capacity to sustain life. Critically, basic links in the food chain (phytoplankton and zooplankton) are being (or have been) removed gradually impacting all the organisms above them in the food chain which has now taken its toll much more visibly. The introduction and movement outward and gradual explosion into the depths of the Quagga mussels, the covering of traditional shallow water spawning areas by zebra mussels and their remnants have delivered a knock out punch as well. Maintaining a balance in the underwater ecosystem is essential to maintaining a fiishery and when several very basic and crucial things are severely out of balance this is the resulting scenario and it is happening at different rates and levels of severity in these lakes making it difficult to pinpoint things.

Thanks and same to you and yours Chad. Great family pic. Happy Holidays to the entire LOU family

Earlier this year there was an incident at the north end of the lake where (I heard) 5,000 or more gallons of sewage overflowed from the treatment plant into the lake via Marsh Creek. Just before Labor day this year a reported 50,000 plus gallons of sewage was discharged into the Keuka Outlet from the Penn Yan treatment plant when someone reportedly left a valve open over night. I was staying at a friends cottage right across the lake a couple days after and there was sewage blackening the water on the east side of the lake and smelling just like what it was for as far as I could see....stuff probably settled to the bottom........

chugbug - Here is Brad Hammer's response to the diary question recieved today:

My trips were also way down and same for Keuka diary