Sk8man

I agree Bigfoot. That was one of my points above and it should be noted that at the height of the diary collecting (1980 and 81 for instance) there were 70 or so diary keepers using various harvesting methods (e.g. trolling,stillfishing, pulling copper, jigging, and night fishing as well) and even 81 diary cooperators in 1995 but as of 2016 there were 34 and instead of over 2,000 fishing trips total during the 80 and 81 and 94,95 years there were only 411 in 2016. The data therefore is very different numerically as well as with respect to the actual type of fishing going on now. When you generalize ressults from a sample of people it needs to be truly representative of who they are and what they are doing and it is my belief that the current results do not accurately reflect this. On top of this a lot of times diary information received is incomplete some of which can't even be used or included because of the omissions. Hopefully some of the suspected shortcomings of the process will become apparent to DEC either in emails submitted by fishermen or in the context of their intended public meeting in June. Although the conditions have changed greatly in Keuka and actually most of the Finger Lakes since about 1995 with some exception years it is my belief that there are still landlocks and rainbows and maybe browns but they are fewer in number and seem pretty scarce now and don't have the forage base they once had in the areas they generally inhabit and these areas are now covered with zebras.. As this has been happening (i.e. the decreasing numbers) most folks have either fished other lakes for them or they have switched to laker jigging and/or perch fishing. My hunch is that many of the diary cooperators may have switched gears along the way too because when I have fished there we were often the only boat trolling ...the others were moving around but seemingly "looking" for fish or anchored jigging out deep. Historically (I have fished there since 1968), most of the rainbows I've caught out there either came from Seth Green rigs out deep or trolling with boards in the shallower sections while browns came from the more southerly areas toward Hammondsport and largely stillfishing with smelt or sawbellies. The landlocks I've caught have come usually with lines run way back off boards or downriggers within 80 ft down to the surface. Jigging while drifting or anchored (and often in very confined areas (e.g. the bluffs) would probably only catch occasioanl or "accidental" fish compared with specifically targeting them trolling covering vast areas of water.The smelt seem to be pretty much non-existant now and very few folks seem to fish this way anymore andthe browns despite being opportunists and having aa varied diet may not have the food available in those areas anymore. In the 70's and 80's many of the old timers caught both rainbows and browns accidentally while pulling copper within 75 or less ft along the shoreline along with lakers but much of the really good fishing was still fishing at night and it was successful for nearly all species of trout as well as a few landlocks once in awhile and that is now a thing of the past as well and so is the potentilal data from it. Keuka used to have a very strong nocturnal feeding population.

I hear you Nick and I agree.

I don't think the problems with the fishery itself are the result of any one year occurance - it is something that is multifacted and ongoing for quite a few years. I'm not so sure the DEC has a very good handle on what is actually going on out there either. From a common sense standpoint it could be a combination of a host of things such as the 2013 and 2014 cold tough winters having adverse impact on young alewife especially, increased predation from too many lakers, too many perch eating alewife eggs (they eat each others eggs by the way), but more than likely the biggest culprits are the Quagga and Zebra mussels and other predacious organisms severely reducing the levels of phytoplankton and zooplankton (and along with it levels of chlorophyl necessary for phytoplankton) necessary to sustain the alewife population. The mussels may also be forcing the fish and bait to go deeper because of the mussel carpeted bottom structure and unfortiunately the Quaggas are deep water dwellers so there is no "escape". The unfortunate thing is that when things get greatly out of whack in the extremely lower levels of the food chain the organisms above that level usually gradually decline to a certain point and then really tank as they become less able or even unable to reproduce in sufficient numbers to maintain their populations. The foodweb is totally interrelated and dramatic changes in any segmenrt of it can disrupt the entire process.

jk1 they did indeed have a comment about the alewives : " While the data analyses are incomplete, observations suggest that alewife abundance has significantly decreased, lake trout are feeding primarily on mysis or freshwater shrimp, lake trout abundance is at its lowest level in 30 years, and brown and rainbow trout and Atlantic salmon continue to be a minor component of the fishery" They further speculate that the combination of invasive mussels and cold winters have negatively impacted the alewives for some time.

I recently received my angler diary results report back from DEC for Keuka, Canandaigua and Seneca. A couple things stand out that folks should be made aware of: There were 14 brown and 13 Atlantics total caught of 1,316 salmonines and all of them by ONE PERSON. Here is the statement that follows "The original goal of the brown trout and Atlantic salmon stocking programs were to add diversity to angler catch. If the anglers in the diary cooperator program are representative of all Keuka Lake anglers, then the diversification goal is not being met. Serious consideration for discontinuing stocking is warranted and will be discussed below Only 6 rainbow trout were caught.all naturally reproduced (no clips). Here is what is mentioned "below" : "We are planning to have a Keuka Lake State of the Lake meeting in June at Keuka College to update conditions of Keuka Lake since our last meeting held in 2012". One of the things that immediately struck me about their conclusion is that a) there are only 34 diary cooperators for Keuka snd even though it may be a large enough minimal sample statistically there is a major practical problem here in that most folks now fishing Keuka aren't TROLLING for multispecies they are JIGGING for lakers so this severely skews the results. For those of us fishing Keuka it may behoove us to contact Brad hammers the Senior Aquatic Biologist with input His email address is : brad.hammers@dec.ny.gov

I think this thread might be why I have always had outboards

The reels you may want to look for are the Diawa Great lakes 47 Line Counters. Older reels but if you upgrade the drags with carbon fiber ones they are very serviceable reels for a number of uses.

Rob maybe you have been able to find smaller ones than the 150 # 3's that I have but they are all I have been able to find. Here is the difference for me: #3 Spro on top #8 on the bottom. The #8 is not a ball bearing swivel though but they seem to do the job without line twist.

The heavy version is fine for rods with large diameter tips and eyes and I use them on my rods with roller tips and although you don't NEED roller tips for copper you do have more line connection options with them and the copper comes on very smoothly.but I have to go with the #8's on most of the other rods.with conventional tips and eyelets.

I normally use #8's on the copper without any real problems but this also depends on the diameter of the holes in your particular rod tip and guides (e.g. some eye inserts take up more space than others) as well as the particular knot used and the line diameters. I use a finely twisted haywire on the copper end and a standard clinch knot on the leader end of the swivel. I have never had any problems with this setup but you do have to tie as tightly as possible (cinching down the clinch knot wet) to make the knots as small as possible to fit through and test them before using. Might sound like a pain the way I'm describing but isn't really. I have more faith in this setup than some of the other knots where I've had breakoffs in the distant past. The #8 Spro is rated at 50 pound test. If worried about the knot parts a tiny amount of Seal All glue canbe applied to the very ends.

#8 or #10 Spro swivel connecting the fluoro leader to mono or braid or copper or leadcore then a good quality solid ring ballbearing swivel at the terminus of the fluoro leader for most stuff I run.

x2 I'm with Rob. Never have had one fail (knot or swivel)