Capt Vince Pierleoni

Hi Dan, It's ok, I've been down this road before. If you want to minimize 40 yrs of Lake Ontario observation with the last 30 as a Full time professional--feel free. I know what I see on my electronics--they capture the alewives suspended--where the bottom trawls miss them. The adult alewife are ALWAYS on the feed, but especially now with winter coming. We have participated VOLUNTARILY in EVERY stomach contents study done by either NYS or the Feds, and look at thousands of stomachs every season. The Salmon this season have had 99.9% adult alewife of what was recognizeable. The skeletons that were not identifiable were also large in nearly every case. We did have some casualties of skippers that we would normally release. Several of these only had insects in their stomachs.

Gill-T, I for one appreciate your posts on this subject. Your observations as a veteran "weekend warrior" are spot on. I have said all along the Skippers appear desperate, recklassly hammering everything that comes within a mile of them. Yes, there is not enough pelagic predators to control the massive adult alewife population. The last few days I've spent alot of time offshore in deep water, there are ample large bait schools(adult alewife), but very little on it. Lake Ontario has always had excessive alewife schools. As a contrast, in August of 1983 we were off Manistee trolling number 3 J-Plugs on every rod(why not, it was a west coast SALMON lure!) Schools of bait were not commonly trolled over, but one mid morning we had a school fill the screen-- EVERY rod went off with screaming adult Salmon-- all in the 20lb range. Now ask yourselves, how many schools of bait did you troll over the last two seasons and not even take one rip? What we experienced on that trip was DENSITY of Salmon, enough to be competitive. Just a point on "charterboat harvest." Let us not ever forget the economic generator that each fish brings to NY. The average Charter party is spending gobs of money on the way through NY, and at their chosen harbor town at restaurants, motels, general shopping, and of course with the boat Captains. The local resident Captains then of course spend the money in their local communities. When push comes to shove, economics are one huge justification of many to continue the program.

I'm glad the late Summer Kayak water releases were brought up. I do believe Steelman has a valid point. There has been more than one Fall where the "eye up" was cited as a critical issue, and some believe its because of the Salmon being artificially induced into running the warm river and roasting the eggs and sperm until the mid October egg take begins. The Coho number hasnt been met in several years, and the condition of the Chinook eggs has suffered--this is info directly from the DEC. If these artificial releases cant be discontinued, perhaps they could be all held mid Summer. Certainly the good of the fishery is more important than having a few extra early Chinnys to play with, that end up dead or having their eggs cook for 2 months.

WOW. Well, in the meantime I hope contingency plans are being made to gather sufficient eggs. With the warm late Summer temps and reports of few fish in the SR system the time is now to plan. With returns ultra low, the targets that do enter the SR will be under seige. Heres to hoping the NYSDEC is proactive.

Great job on the MONGO goby getter! Bruce do you have the fish frozen? Jana would probably love a scale off of it to age it and check strain.

And Gill-T, Thank you for all the time you put into those letters and contacting those representatives. And so it begins.

Dead on, Bruce. They work for US. Noone has ever asked me- should we spend gazillions on the "just because" Lake Trout program while starving the ever popular Chinook/Coho program? The returning Chinook to Olcott have names this year. There are less of them than ever. I also think that the Lamprey control program is failing. We have had more wounding on Chinooks than I have seen since I rode a stingray to the lake in the late 70's. As for Alewife, a DEC biologist once said to me, "they will be in that lake long after we are all gone."

This Spring in the west end was more of a classic Spring "set up". Salmon seeking warmer temps and migrating baitfish--or merely following them "in" are found in concentrated numbers--thus triggering frenzied feeding periods as the "greed factor" kicks in. The west end has been "left holding the bag" for several years now, on both the North and South shores. Many believe it stems from the one U.S. hatchery being at the extreme East end. Others believe that the West end imprinted matures get cropped off early with all the pressure the west end gets in both U.S. and Canadian waters. I cannot speak for the Canadian returns in the west end, but the returns to the western basin were FAR stronger when the fish were planted from the legendary Caledonia hatchery. Lastly, there is growing evidence that the best returns are to rivers where natural repro occurs--which is a good thing for sure. I have recently learned that the Canadians are looking to address this disparity--perhaps planting more of their allotment into dammed rivers or rivers where natural repro does not occur. This is a very smart idea.

Nice pics, Skipper. I would guess they are from 2011 or 2012. In 2012 anglers got a taste of what it would be like if the lake actually had a population of King Salmon in a decent predator to prey ratio. It was the result of a super natural repro year class. The entire lake saw them as 2 yr olds in 2011, 3 yr olds in 2012, and 4 yr olds in 2013. In a normal healthy population, the 3rd year class will always be the largest represented as mature fish. If a certain year class is huge, that leaves a greater number of those fish as 4 yr olds--it's a numbers game. Today with smaller populations of each year class and relentless intelligent pressure(who can blame us--they are the best) on the Salmon, the number of the normally small percentage that reach age 4 is extremely low. I guess we can hope for another big hatch, or work to see that the stocked Salmon are actually healthy enough or protected enough(pen projects) so that more can contribute to the fishery and more can make it to age 4. It's a numbers game, plain and simple. As for that large stocking cut--it actually wasn't as large as the DEC wanted. They were shocked that despite their relentless scare tactics the fishery congress( I was a member) chose a reduction plan that also included a reduction in Lake Trout stocking. Congress members were educated that it actually was the Alewife that was the "bad guy", and not the King Salmon. If you were a trib guy, more King Salmon in the lake meant less Steel harvested in the lake; if you were a perch or walleye guy, more King Salmon meant some kind of control of the Alewife and gave the hatches of these fish a fighting chance; if you were a southshore restaurant or motel owner it was a no brainer--the Salmon get people to come here--in droves. There was no option to leave stocking alone. Some of us believe with every fiber of our being that it was the beginning of an attempt to wean anglers off of Pacific Salmon. The cut was devastating, and not until pen projects got rolling and base flows changed did the Lake Salmon fishing improve. As for the hatchery space, the extra space wasnt used for anything else after the cut was made. There were actually TWO Salmon rearing hatcheries--the Caledonia hatchery was taken out of the Chinook rearing business. I know one thing, if Bill Pearce was alive today he would be sad. He was the fishery chief who brought Pacific Salmon to NY waters, and he was damn proud of the program and not just for the biological benefits but the vibrant sportfishery it brought to the open lake. In order for anglers to experience decent open lake catch rates, the density must be there. When adult Salmon are in close proximity of good numbers of other adults they become extremely competitive and at times, easier to hoodwink and catch. When solitary, a returning open lake King Salmon is as moody and cagey as a top end predator gets.

Oh, where to begin? The hatchery story is a sad one. Not known to very many was the fact that there was money available and a plan in place for a hatchery in Lewiston. Brand new state of the art facility. The town of Lewiston would help maintain it, university students could help man it, and a true tourist attraction would be added. The proposal was even flexible in what cold water fish would be raised there. In the end it went down the tubes as it was met with complete opposition by the DEC, despite the fact that the feds were interested especially for their beloved Lake Trout. I know one thing for certain, the adult alewife population is wreaking havoc on the ecosystem of Lake Ontario. We have never had to carefully unhook more 1 1/2 yr old Kings and 8 inch Kings from this years plants or hatches. The reason? I believe that the adult alewives are preying on the yoy Alewives and emerald shiners. This is why so many skippers are desparately impaling themselves on all presentations. I'd like to be excited about these 2 yr classes in the future, but many will probably not make the winter if they don't fortify enough now through Fall. The smaller bait just isnt there for them--and this could be affecting Steelhead recruitment as well. Yes, ultimately more pelagics will lower top end size of mature Chinooks-BUT-we could end up with more 20+ LB fish anyway as slower growth will result in delayed maturity. It's great to see all the mature 2yr old Kings blowing up into the mid teens but there just aren't enough of them to control the adult alewife. Meanwhile tanker after tanker load of Lakers continues to go in from both Countries. In the end its definitely the administrations--both federal and state that are giving the truly dedicated DEC staff members such a difficult time. We may not need more numbers planted--but we definitely need better quality hatchery product--both in the pen fish and direct stock. The size of the direct stocked Chinooks have been pitiful and have really only been "paper numbers", and not contributing to the fishery as they are feeble and become fish and bird food. We do need to enhance the wild stock of Chinook as well, as I'm certain that most of the longer/older Chinooks are naturals. In some areas, perhaps protection is overdue while spawning, and yes ladders would be great. There is no need for finger pointing. The competitions are vitally important economically--there just isnt that many boats on the water on non competition days anymore.

I'm actually witnessing some guys from the other side of the harbor in Olcott taking the time to put clipped Salmon heads in freezer by town marina cleaning table. It's free, and the pen project you help justify may be your own! Limitman, the clip is super easy to look for--its the lack of an adipose fin(the tiny fin/appendage that is normally directly in front of the tail-on top. No one is suggesting killing a Salmon just for this data, but if its a mortally hooked fish or a fish for your dinner table then the collectors want it. Thx!

Thank you Jerry, for posting. Lets all give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that this is in the best interests of improved Salmon fishing/Alewife control. The collectors talk and I'm shocked at the lack of cooperation in some areas. The freezer in Olcott is on the side of the cleaning station.

This is for the derby anglers who havent fished/don't fish much the rest of the season. There is an enormous crop of 5 month old(since planted) and 1 1/2 yr old King Salmon all over the lake. The reasons why adult numbers have been down the last 2 seasons is for another post. For this one lets concentrate on these valuable "up and comers". For most of the full time operator charter captains, these fish get returned to the lake as gently as possible--it's just good business sense. Every season we land adult salmon with mangled jaws that healed up and survived--and make someones day or fishing life. If you plan to fish alot the next 2 weeks, there can be days in several locations where you will encounter 10+ a day. Do the math- with all the boats plying the waters looking for that elusive out-sized 4 yr old many thousands of these will be handled. Most likely a few will be mortally wounded and theres the few that should be kept for table fare, the rest will grow 700 to 1000 percent in a year. They experience the biggest percentage of growth between year 1 and 2 so it just makes sense for the fishery. Also, for their welfare and the success of your outing lines should be checked much more often when they are around in big numbers. If they are dragging for too long they will drown and then releasing is not an option. For those not familiar these fish will usually be under 20 inches at this time. Good luck out there and be safe!

As already stated above, Olcott harbor(town of Newfane marina) is exactly what you are looking for.

You guys are great. I'm sure Fred(aka "steelheadr") is very happy with your comments. There is no man on earth who would appreciate that fish more than him. He used to play a prominent role as a team member in the 80s and 90s and these days helps us out a few times a year as an observer and is a funny as ever. He, along with his brother Doug are two of the greatest people I have ever met and we are blessed to call them friends.

Actually, Kings maturing early is due to EXCESSIVE Alewives in the lake in relation to the pelagic predator population, and the fast start some of the pen projects are providing.

This thread may never end. The posts here have brought back so many memories. Yeah, that red hot "Manistee wobbler" in glistening dull nickle plate finish, LOL. Yes Skateman it did look like mantaray! Mature Kings were caught by the "bull fighting" method at the pierheads--we wore them down. Back and forth with sub par presentations until a frustrated Male blasted one. The marinas at the Oak took POLAROID pics of EVERY Salmon caught(talking late 70's the "ban years"). One King made for a successful outing, the entire crew would pose with the fish like they do with Great Whites and used to do with Marlin. My first memories started with being being in love with fishing in "the big lake" at my grandfathers cottage at Wautoma beach. Too many hours in the mid to late 60s sitting on the dock watching dying and dead Alewives not knowing I was wasting my time soaking worms and minnows. We caught our first Salmon on bobbers and worms in the late 60s in Sandy creek(Hamlin)--they were yearling stockie Coho and they were the coolest little fish. We released them and little did we know what was about to happen. By the mid 70's we wore rubber off our bike tires riding to Russell Station to cast in the lake current in the Spring or drift sacks or anise sponge inside by the "tubes". When the drivers licenses came in late 70s we were on adventures to the piers at Hamiln or renting boats from Dick Barney on the Little Salmon river. This post will close with that story. Rented one of his 16fters(for a while no one cared if you took them out in the lake) brought our portable 2 x 6 with the manual "Rivies" at each end and clamped it to the rental vessel. Our weights were official Riviera plastic torpedos filled with bb shot. Our rigger rods were Heddon "Silver Kings", with huge spinning guides on them--and we accomodated with big surf casting reels. We slapped my buddies dads 15hp Evinrude on the transom and shot down to the SR. It was a merry go round circus even then. We each hooked one on Green glo Fire plugs, one on a flatline the other on a rigger set halfway to bottom. Landing both of them proved life threatening, as the boat was shut down for the battle and offshore wind blew us a mile out in the lake while battling the beasts, no cell phones and no marine radio. We had 2 Kings however, and from that day forward it was ON. Many a sleepless night before even a pier casting trip. I dont lose sleep anymore, but each and every Chinook Salmon is as good as ever. I refer to those early days as "the wonder years".