John E Powell

Big Dave, That has to be the best kid/fish picture I have ever seen! That is certainly a picture that says a thousand words. Sent from my iPad using Lake Ontario United mobile app

The 57LC5 has a pretty impressive recovery rate/turn of the handle, should be nice for those longer rigs if you prefer line counters. Sent from my iPad using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Adam, in some cases it is pretty easy to try a spiral rod for very little investment. Quite often, you can take a standard factory two-piece rod and turn the front half upside down and reposition the second or second and third guide and end up with a more fishably enjoyable rod than the original. It's really pretty easy to strip the finish and thread as long as it is not the UV cured finish that sets up literally in seconds that some manufacturers are starting to use nowadays. Traditional epoxy finishes can be warmed, softened, and easily stripped. Then you just clean and prep the area, wrap the guide back on with a similar color of thread, and apply a thin application of rod finish. A small spool of thread and a small epoxy kit should cost less than $10. There are you-tube videos and videos from component suppliers like Mudhole and FlexCoat that can guide you through the actual steps, though you probably won't find specific ones about converting a rod, you would just adapt the info to this application. You could also have your local tackle store that repairs rods perform this service for you for a minimal cost. It's been my experience that most people who can get over the appearance of the spiral wrapped guides, will prefer them once they get used to handling them. The biggest comment I get from people who try them is that when you are attaching line to a rigger release and you rest the rod but on the deck of the boat and the weight of the reel turns the rod upside down, the guides are now on top instead of underneath. If it is your habit to run your hand up the top of the blank to get ahold of the line, your fingers now find guides where before they felt a smooth underside of the rod. It's not a big thing, but if it's your habit, it will take some getting used to. Sent from my iPad using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Pap, (and others) To answer your question about why someone may say one thing and someone else may say something contradictory and both say it works for them, you have to consider that some people's only experience may be with just a rod or two, and in their eyes what they have works great for them (and it might). But that doesn't mean it will work for you in your boat. In fact, If you don't mind "curlies" in your wire and are willing to trim your wire back now and then, you don't need any roller tip or even a Twili. The uses of such upgrades are really for the convenience of the angler, not a necessity for the gear to function properly. As to the length of the rods, every boat layout is different and thus will have a unique set of factors to consider. One 18' boat might need 10' diver rods and another 18' boat can use 7' rods just fine. Only you can determine how much reach you need for your boat. Acting on the advice of someone who has never seen your boat or how the gear is laid out, let alone fished on it, is a poor approach at best. As to having the stripper guide (the one in front of the reel) a roller, there again is no requirement of any kind to do so. It is purely a personal preference which may or may not be based in any actual measurable benefit. For instance, someone might say "well the roller guide gives me more clearance so the wire doesn't rub over my left hand when I hold the grip". That may be true, but that doesn't mean you have to use a roller guide to get that clearance - any high frame guide of similar height would offer the same "benefit". Just about everything has pluses and minuses, and roller guides are no different. They are heavy, expensive, and considerably alter the action of the blank they are installed on, much more so than high-quality, less expensive, and lighter ceramic ring guides. Rollers also require the angler to orient the rod towards the load or risk jumping the wire off the roller between the roller and frame. This means you should turn the rods (so the reel faces forward when in the rod holder), not upright where many people prefer to orient them. Rollers also require routine maintenance to keep them working well. Let’s examine the assertion that there is less effort to turn the roller than to drag the wire over a guide. Assuming the roller is turning freely, this is probably true, but what does that means in terms of fighting a fish. It means that as you pump the rod upwards (and are not turning the handle) there is no actual advantage because the roller isn't turning; any advantage the roller might offer is only noticed under a lighter load when you drop the rod tip to wind line on the reel. During the rod tip drop and recovery, the perceived effect of having an easy turning roller is actually less than one might think. I'm not saying it’s not a factor in the overall experience of using that rod, I'm saying there are two other factors that are MUCH more significant to the overall experience of using that rod than how freely the line travels over a particular guide. By far, the greatest factor is Rod length. The longer the rod, the more effort you will need to apply to the rod to accomplish the same amount of work. I've already demonstrated in another post that the difference between a 10' diver rod and a 7' diver rod can be as much as 30-40% more effort from the angler to land the same fish on the longer rod. No other factor comes close. Simply put, long rods, big heavy fish, and trolling boats are just a bad combo for small people (kids), weaker people and the elderly. The next greatest factor (in rods with conventional trolling reels) is what rod designers refer to as the lever-arm effect of the guides on a rod blank. The lever-arm effect is well known to manufacturers who build large reels. One of the reasons large reels have lugs on top to attach a harness to is to stabilize the reel (and rod) by minimizing the effect of the lever-arm on the rod. For our purposes in freshwater, think of it this way: When a guide is positioned above a blank the force applied to the guide by the load does a couple things, it distributes the load from the line by deflecting (bending) the rod it is attached to, but it also twists the guides to one side or the other towards the path of least resistance. When guides twist to the side, they in turn twist the rod blank, which applies a torque to the hand holding the rod. This torque must be continuously overcome by the angler or the rod will turn upside down in their hands - this effect tasks strength in a person's back, shoulder, arm, wrist, hand and fingers. Exacerbating this effect is the fact that every turn of the reel handle applies a continually varying torque to the rod which varies the total torque effect, and the angler's muscles must attempt to continuously compensate for that torque which is all the more tiring. When the angler becomes tired, they can no longer overcome the varying torque loads and the rod begins to twist and turn in their hand, and the whole experience becomes a struggle. What I've just described is what you see when you observe any small child attempt to use a large rod. While they may be able to do so, that struggle is quite difficult for them. With the elderly, that struggle can be painful and not enjoyable at all. Ever wonder why so many dad's and grandfathers seem to want to pass off a big fish to someone else or maybe they choose not to use certain rods like that 500' copper rig? The pain they are experiencing in various parts of their body is real, and over time, it just isn't enjoyable any more. If you take away one things from the whole lever-arm effect, understand that the taller the guide above the blank, the worse the lever-arm effect of the guide will be, and that the exact opposite is true - the further below the rod blank a guide is, the more beneficial the lever arm effect will be able in contributing to stabilize the rod from other forces (like turning the reel handle under load). This is why spiral wrapped rods, where the guides quickly transition from the top of the rod to the underside of the rod, are so much more enjoyable to land large fish on. There are formulas to estimate the effect of the lever-arm phenomena but suffice it to say, depending on the rod it can vary to between 10-25% additional total effort to land a fish on a conventionally wrapped rod vs a spiral (the heavier the rod and load, the taller the guides, the greater the benefit). In all honesty, roller guide rods are dinosaurs. In talking with my rodbuilding friends who build rods professionally up and down the coast, they are only being used on really heavy gear. For example, Tuna guys use them because they don’t pump their rods, they keep their rods in holders and wind the fish onto the reel using the rod solely as a shock absorber. In this case the roller guide's advantage of less drag compared to regular guides makes sense. It would also make sense in the Great Lakes if you stuck your rod in a rod holder and only turned the reel handle to bring your fish to net. But I bet you don't fish that way. In all honesty, if you came to me today and asked me to build you a custom all-roller diver rod for salmon fishing and I knew you were going to use it like a traditional diver rod, I would pass on the job because I know I wouldn't be building you the best rod I could. Now a roller tip (or a Twili), as a convenience accessory to help keep the curlies to a minimum, that makes complete sense. What makes the most sense? A rod that is only as long as you need it to be, spiral wrapped with quality ceramic or tungsten carbide guides that can stand up to the wire, a front grip sized and placed to compliment your personal physique, and a roller tip (or Twili) that hangs under the rod like the rest of the spiraled guides. Are you going to find that on a rod rack in your tackle store, probably not, and I know that. I also know that custom rods only appeal to about 10% of people who fish, so for the 90% trying to get the best they can from a tackle store's rod rack your job is to cut through the passion, hype and conjecture from what you read or hear and consider what really matters to you. Only in that way will you be able to pick a rod in your budget that best matches your needs. This will be your platform to modify with a new tip of your choice. Probably the best advice I can offer to you is to invite out some buddies on your boat who have different diver rods, and try them out to see which work well and which don't work so well. Believe me when I say that when I meet with other rodbuilders who build great lakes trolling rods, each and every one will agree with me that there is no more challenging rod to get right than diver rods. It’s difficult even for us pros to get it 100% right, and some of us do this for a living, not just a hobby.

If you go with softer 19 strand wire on your reel as compared to the 7 strand variety, you can use just about any decent rod with the correct action (mod fast to fast) and sufficient power to pull your diver. Most ceramic ring factory rod guides will hold up to casual weekend use. I would not however consider them adequate for serious fisherman, charter boats, or tournament where money might be on the line. You really only need to replace the tip, and then you either are looking at a Twili, or one of the various roller tips. Keep in mind that you also really only need just enough reach to get around your side rigger cable. 10'-10'6" rods are almost always the wrong rods on a trailerable boat under 21-22' or so. Don't spend a lot of money on an all roller factory rod. At those prices, you should be able to get into a no-frills custom rod from your local builder; if they know what they are doing, you'll have a better rod for your money. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

I've converted a few factory rods to spiral layout for guys. Unless your prepared to refinish the rods, you pretty much have to use the same guide locations. It's pretty easy to do on two piece rods because you can just turn the front half upside down when you assemble it. Most trolling length 2-piece rods seem to have the stripper guide and one more guide on the rear section. This means that the second guide can be repositioned at or near the 90 degree point on the blank and you achieve a crude spiral with changing only one guide. It's not the best way to do it, but it is better than a traditional top-guided factory rod.