Rich s

Their reason for increasing laker stocking was to have more natural reproduction. If the lakers eat so many gobies, thiamine deficiency should not be an issue and natural reproduction should be a lot higher. They are eating gobies in early spring before the bait comes back from wintering on the bottom of the lake out deep. I see hundreds of lakers a year and spent many years filleting lakers aboard the Advocate for years. I only see lakers spitting or partially digested gobies a lot in April and early May. Once the bait shows up, gobies and smelt seem to be an afterthought as a meal to a laker.

Questions:

1. Was / is the lake trout stockings everyone is throwing out an increase or a return to what has been a normal stocking level ? It is my understanding there was a decrease in lake trout stocking for many years due to federal funding so I'm curious.

2. Do the goby inhabit the same deep waters that lake trout do ?

Thanks :

Rich

Funny you say browns,

Up to 2009 was a phenomenal tributary (SR) brown trout fishery for myself .. I haven't seen it near as close since..  Funny thing is "I" blamed the lake harvest.. Who knows.. I have caught 2 browns on the lake this year.. 1 in the 15lb range in June and the other in 5lb range in Aug..

the 5 mil naturals is a hypotheses.. They IMO do not actually count 5 million salmon in a sine..

Do I personally believe the lake trollers take a large portion, yes .. 4% , eh maybe I'd put that higher from a laymen ..

River guys take the harvest of returns.. If the point is returns are low, river guys blame the lake guys.. If the Lake harvest is low, lake guys seem to think the overall numbers are low.. Do I know who is correct, hell no.. I got my but handed to me out there this season and blame only myself for not researching more on habitat, movements, currents & weather patterns, overall lack of experience.. Should I be butting in this conversation ? Ah, maybe because I have been involved in the fishery for quite some time from mainly a walkers side and now going deep..

It's a balance , IMO and everyone moves along the beam.. to keep things in check is why we have biologist and fishery managements ..

I'm just some guy trying absorb the fishery as best I can understand and enjoy the opportunities it offers..  If I were a stakeholder who's livelihood depended on the system , then I would make sure I have all the information possible   

Thanks Folks:
Rich

700 kings X 100 charter captains = 70,000  (catching/keeping 2 and 3 yr olds) = 70,000 kings out of 3.5 million stocked + 5 million naturals? x 2 year classes= 17 million salmon available, which translates to charter captain's take of approx 4% of available 2 and 3 year olds swimming around (in a vacuum).  Check my math but I don't think Charter take is the issue......we are missing MILLIONS of salmon.

Geesh, the cormorants ate well.. LOL 

millions missing ? I don't know.. as a trib guy we always said all the trout went out in coolers and the salmon went to the landfill with pitchforks and dump trucks..

I'm curious how this seasons and next spawning runs play out before I sell the boat.. Heck, I still ain't sellin

Capt Vince,

 Please believe that I respect your insight and value your knowledge as well.. Understand I was a trib guy for 35 years and am a greenhorn to the open lake fishing this season.. We struggled hard out there, we seen tons of bait as you pointed out .. We did not see predators like I thought in these bait pods so I'm confused as much.. I'm learning, your experienced so I try and gather as much info to make things more successful.  

Only from my trips and experiences can I report from..

Gobies : We caught tons while jigging for smallmouth, in the little SR & the lake itself..

Lakers: we seemed to mark lots of lakers once we started looking for them, we didn't however target them like I should have

Honestly, for a fisher like me , I'm ok with lake trout and see that they will get giant feeding on gobies .. How do you control invasives  other then predators, enforcement  or treatment.. Seems many hands are tied in many ways other then natural predators.

As for the tribs issue,

Man , I have seen hoards of salmon belly up in that river from Aug on ever since I have been fishing there in 1980.. Way before recreational releases or min flow agreements.. Yes , even after the salmon stocking reduction was cut in 1/2..

You must realize there are years when the environmental elements become out of our control. The timing of the salmon entering the river is also pretty much in the natural cycle control as well.. Do I think the Labor day releases have an effect on some fish entering , yes.. is it a factor, absolutely not.. It is such a small percentage that it has no bearing on the total sum..

As Davy stated, the releases have been cancelled or curbed in the past, well , like last year..   

The Great Lake and all it's bounties are for everyone to enjoy, not just us fish heads.. Those releases (4 I believe) are trivial to the fishery..  

Yes there was issues with eye up, I'm sure there have been others in the past as well but I don't believe the over all stocking numbers were effected..

Best place for those answers is to contact the hatchery direct.. Get to the source..

Sorry to sound lopsided and in no way is it meant to.. I value both lake and trib sides information equally..

Thanks :

Rich

Spot on Davy !!

I as you have fished the river system for a very LONG time and everything you stated is pretty darn accurate . I have attended the seminars at the hatchery as well as the healing waters when Fred spearheaded the project ,quite sure we have shared much water together .

While we all complain or for better words , get frustrated , there is still no denying it is a heck of a fishery and we are so lucky to have that right here in NY !! Is there much more work to be done and much more research to do ? Absolutely !!! Invasives and the environmental elements are ALWAYS going to be a challenge !! I personally think the DEC is addressing these issues in the best ways possible . Can they just stock more fish ? Hell yea but its such a fine balance that you just can't throw more salt into the soup and think its going to be better .

I applaud you for the tireless effort you put forth in your postings . I know it must get old and tiring but please continue as education is the KEY .

Thank you

Rich

Nice pics, Skipper. I would guess they are from 2011 or 2012. In 2012 anglers got a taste of what it would be like if the lake actually had a population of King Salmon in a decent predator to prey ratio. It was the result of a super natural repro year class. The entire lake saw them as 2 yr olds in 2011, 3 yr olds in 2012, and 4 yr olds in 2013. In  a normal healthy population, the 3rd year class will always be the largest represented as mature fish. If a certain year class is huge, that leaves a greater number of those fish as 4 yr olds--it's a numbers game. Today with smaller populations of each year class and relentless intelligent pressure(who can blame us--they are the best) on the Salmon, the number of the normally small percentage that reach age 4 is extremely low. I guess we can hope for another big hatch, or work to see that the stocked Salmon are actually healthy enough or protected enough(pen projects) so that more can contribute to the fishery and more can make it to age 4. It's a numbers game, plain and simple.  

As for that large stocking cut--it actually wasn't as large as the DEC wanted. They were shocked that despite their relentless scare tactics the fishery congress( I was a member) chose a reduction plan that also included a reduction in Lake Trout stocking. Congress members were educated that it actually was the Alewife that was the "bad guy", and not the King Salmon. If you were a trib guy, more King Salmon in the lake meant less Steel harvested in the lake; if you were a perch or walleye guy, more King Salmon meant some kind of control of the Alewife and gave the hatches of these fish a fighting chance; if you were a southshore restaurant or motel owner it was a no brainer--the Salmon get people to come here--in droves. There was no option to leave stocking alone. Some of us believe with every fiber of our being that it was the beginning of an attempt to wean anglers off of Pacific Salmon. The cut was devastating, and not until pen projects got rolling and base flows changed did the Lake Salmon fishing improve.

As for the hatchery space, the extra space wasnt used for anything else after the cut was made. There were actually TWO Salmon rearing hatcheries--the Caledonia hatchery was taken out of the Chinook rearing business. I know one thing, if Bill Pearce was alive today he would be sad. He was the fishery chief who brought Pacific Salmon to NY waters, and he was damn proud of the program and not just for the biological benefits but the vibrant sportfishery it brought to the open lake. 

In order for anglers to experience decent open lake catch rates, the density must be there. When adult Salmon are in close proximity of good numbers of other adults they become extremely competitive and at times, easier to hoodwink and catch. When solitary, a returning open lake King Salmon is as moody and cagey as a top end predator gets.  

As well AWESOME response ..

Thank you..

Well Rich, the feds have been trying to revive lake trout to native sustainable status in the Great lakes including Ontario since the late 1950's when the Great lakes Fishery Commission got started with the Charter to turn things around from the polluted waste lands that the GL's had become and improve the habitat to where lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon would once again swim and be self sustaining.

Obviously that hasn't worked out too well. They loaded the lake in the 70's 80's and 90's with 1.5 mill a year, then started backing them down to 1/2 a Mill, had some hatchery issues where most of the allotment didn't get planted, and then fired up the big numbers again...all the while never having enough measurable success in sustaining wild stocks to end stocking.

I guess we are going to hear encouraging news on the latest wild repo results, but who knows if they have found a break through. Personally I've never bad mouthed Lake Trout, they are a beautiful fish, and yes they get big out here. Are they fun to catch trolling...not so much, but if people would pull up in open water and jig for them like the Finger Lakes, you'd have a whole new experience, and they would become a much more targeted species. Setting the hook on a 20 pounder in 100 foot of water on a medium action rod, and you are in for a lot of fun...jus sayin'

Awesome feedback . The 60's history of the lake was before my time . Cut my teeth with carp and trib run striped bass in early 70's in my back yard and then migrated to the GL tribs in 80, steelhead 1986 salmon

Lake trout are pretty fun as all heck in 100 fow through a 6" hole with a short pole firm and feisty.

Get the point on the troll but honestly trolling is , well trolling. I always kill the motor to play the fish be it a blue gill or chinook salmon .

You made me laugh about jigging them on the Great Lake Ontario .

All my few season trips last year I had a 38" rod with 3/4 oz buck tail jigs and plenty 1 oz Swedish pimples on board . Got to intimidated to toss them out .

Next season I think during our swim shut down from trolling times would be perfect . Still learning

Thanks

I hear the salmon are here , where are the trout !!

Thanks Davy ,

Yes I was referring to the reduction of salmon a long time ago and was just wondering what took their place they occupied in the hatcheries .

I fish for lake trout during ice season on lake George which is all natural reproduction, no stocking . It is truly an amazing fishery with an enormous amount of what we call Big lake trout compared to other area stocked ( lake trout ) waters.

While I have yet to catch an Ontario lake trout it just blows my mind the size of them on that water body and don't really understand why there are so many stocked and natural reproduction is a concern . It just seems there should be more natural reproduction going on . I am going to turn my efforts a bit more towards them out there next season

Like I said , I'm very new to this Lake fishing and trying to learn as much as I can which in turn should help increase my success .

Thanks again

Rich

Folks, thanks for all the comments and insight.. Please consider that I am all very new to the lake fishing but have been fishing the tribs for over 35 years.. First as you all may know I have been out on the lake from Mexico EVERY single weekend  since June 13th and struggled severely.. We just haven't been catching many fish (4 salmon, 2 browns, 1 steelhead and a sheepshead) and haven't been marking many fish but do mark lots of pods of bait but don't see the predators around these bait pods.. We have covered TONS of water from the plant to sandy pond in all ranges of depth to 500fow.. Now in saying that we have drawn the conclusion that we are doing something wrong in the lack of fish we are seeing on our sonar and not necessarily or lures..  Last week I figured it would be a sure thing with staging fish but we drew a blank .. I'm not about to get in a pizzing match over tons of boats trying to all fish the same water sow we stayed outside them in 140fow and again marked very, very few fish..

Now Davy, you are a master of the future and I enjoy reading your postings which are very well written and explained .. Thank You..

It leads me to questions, I turn helping to learn :

1. hatchery, When the Salmon stocking numbers were reduced (1/2 I believe) what was used in that space they once occupied .

2. Lake trout, do you think the increased stockings are in effort to control Goby

3. I'm pretty sure you covered this before but what was the purpose to start stocking bloaters and herring into the lake

I am discouraged in our success but have never felt we were wasting our time because we enjoy every single opportunity to be able to get away from the grinds of everyday work and the possibility is always there , or not.. We call it fishing as well as relaxation & recreation.. 

Thanks:

Rich

Thanks Eric!

All in all, this year's fall fishing vacation was the best weather we have had in our 10+ years of fishing for a week of the Fall LOC, however it was by far and bar none the worst fishing. Am I worried, yes. Do I know the cause, no. All I can do is hope next year is better.

We did catch enough fish to fill my parent's freezer, so mission accomplished there, but we fished longer hours and more days than ever before to make it happen. Even scarier is this is the first year ever we haven't caught a fish over 25lbs and only two fish over 20lbs back in mid July. If this is your first year fishing the lake, don't give up. If you struggled this year and think you are doing something wrong, don't give up. There is a lot of bait out there and if we can manage a mild winter, we may see much better fishing next year!

Thank you for the inspirational aspire, it is my first (full time) but not last year fishing the Great Lake.. It's your adventures that keep us wanting more and that's not always the fish.. 

As with you and Mrs, Ruff, we also fish the spring striper run on the Mighty Muddy Hudson (my back yard)..

So glad you guys are back in business with the boat and will hopefully finish out your season with all its glory !!!

One more adventure for us next week and then some putting around locally before I put my boat to rest until the Stripers return again..

Safe travels, warm winter and great stories :

Rich

Social media has ruined most people, everyone needs to be as good or better the rest. Most have forgotten what it is to just enjoy getting away from work and the everyday grind of life. It is called fishing and not catching for a reason, just relax and enjoy yourself. The fish are there, unlike last year, we can't make them bite. Next year, or the year after when we have another great year you can look back and say, yes remember those hard years, and really enjoy the great years. The season is not over yet, if they turn on it will be a blood bath, and if not you can't say you didn't try.

Capt Rich.

NY Guide Service

Lake Ontario Charters

Salmon River Drift Boat trips

Waterfowl Hunting.

Not me Rich,

I am just so grateful to have had the opportunity the Great Lake gave us EVERY SINGLE week since mid june..We have been able to get out to fish and play in the lake all spring and summer..  If the fishing isn't happening for us we , cook, swim, ski and tube to make things fun and then go back to fishing if its warranted.. Couldn't ask for anything better and never felt that a single trip was a waste of time !!!

Sure we have severe growing pains in figuring out the fishing .. Our total for the year is, 4 Salmon, 2 browns, 1 steelhead and a giant sheepshead .. Oh not counting dink perch, smallies and goby, lol 

The social media (here) has helped me learn things in which I never would know, speed, temp, stacking,  currents and on and on.. The thing it cant and I don't want is instant gratification, it's all about the adventure for myself and crew..

While there may be lots of fishing ahead before seasons end, next week will be our final adventure.. Many things to do in preparation for my fall, other season adventures.. Got to get back to the Adirondacks at least once before the hunt of another sort begins..  

Thanks to all that made this year a success for me :

Rich

_{Another swing and a miss for myself in the area yesterday (9-5).. Arrived to the boat and could only fish yesterday.. Got out around 8am and thankfully got through the massive inside boats out to 140 fow where it was open seas , well 3-4' chop.. Set up just off the stack and trolled 6 rods all the way to the SR without a sniff, twisted line or ghosts on the sonar.. The lake started to lay down just after noon so we shut down for lunch and some swimming.. Inside boats mostly left after lunch so we pointed a bit inshore towards sandy pond.. A pod of fish lit the screen up and the rigger rod 90' down (no probe) in 90 fow.. It was a salmon and got us all twisted up resulting in lost fish and tackle.. Kept trolling from Sandy pond to SR and hit another fish on a mag dipsy in 80-90fow and off as fast as it was on.. We fished another 3 hrs back to Little SR and never touched another rod..}

_{Dismal again, don't like all the boat traffic now but not defeated, we will finish out our season next week in 140 or so fow..}

_Rich

Great report KJ, steve .. So glad you all had fun and got some fish on the line.. Smiles are what it's all about and thanks for posting them  ..

 We have fun always as well and if we didn't then why bother..

Our week long adventure was as last year, the lake didn't play as nice enough for our tiny tub as we like so we settled.. It was great to know fellow LOU members were in touch and helpful, thanks so much.. Offers are always open to return the favor if you chose to jump aboard the Mae, be it the great lake or Mighty muddy Hudson for stripers..

We got 2 weeks left out there then the hunt begins and the hardwater gear starts getting ready..

Rich.

My home waters of the mighty muddy Hudson but what Ontario almost was

Beep the horn and wake us up on the boat when you turn off 104b to launch.

We will wait until the traffic jam clears then putt off the dock and fish the deserted water ,lol

That 35# has been caught today ( not in derby ) so set your sights towards the elusive 40#

Lol ,

Good Luck out there !!

Rich

It's funny because the Mexico point launch has been pretty deserted every weekend until this weekend .

Yup it's almost time to pull the boat out . I'm not into crazy traffic on the lake .

The one thing that really bugs the heck out of me are the auto pilots ..

They set a course and never change no matter the other boats in the area.

Those of us without auto pilot are always , constantly changing our course for them .

Good luck and glad you got a few .

Rich

If I only caught 1 % of all the fish I marked it would of been a great weekend. East and west from 100 to 650 fow there was a fish or multiple marks on the screen every 5 minutes. 100 to 200 down. I only fooled 3 Friday and 4 Saturday to only net 3 of total. Bites came on spoons, spin doctors and attractors. No particular color either. I did see a few decent coolers at the fish cleaning station with some majors. Full moon and a drastic change in water temps the last few weekends must have them tight lipped. I can't blame not catching fish on the reason of there being no fish.

Sent from my XT1080 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Well that's some pretty big swings from 100-600 fow outta little salmon river ( Mexico ). Like I said , maybe is our location ? We fished out to 450 fow in and out all summer and marked few and caught fewer . Lakers on the bottom I guess were the most abundant . Don't think we made it past 500 fow . What would you estimate the distance ?

I'm not much for beating myself or crew up and in 6 days in Mexico this week we fished 2 . Guess today was the day to be there , lol

Got to learn this summer program much better next season and an experienced captain is what I feel will help 10 fold as suggested .

It's been a fun ride all summer without a doubt and while its not over yet , I'm already looking forward to an earlier start next year as soon as I get the striper slime and herring scales all hosed off

We will be at things again on Friday and the following weekend . I'm hoping the lake plays nice again 1-4 ' rollers before I pull the plug . Not much into river style fishing on the lake for salmon so if it plays nice we will venture far . Lakers is not out if the question either . While catching hundreds of lake trout on other waters , we have yet still to catch a Great Lakes lake trout ,,, Humm go figure .. I can only write and report my experiences ..

Thanks for all the help and support everyone has given to myself and crew on our Great Lake Adventures this season

Rich

It's funny . We have been inside and guys have been outside . We go outside and guys go inside .

After 11 straight weeks of fishing that area , I still can't figure it out . Next year you betcha I will !!

While I didn't fish this weekend , I'm not into river style fishing on the Great Lake as my crew reported today .

Will be back at it next week , I will try outside , lol

Rich

Well I'm not out this weekend but my boat and crew are. Combat fishing today was their early report ..

You can fish the lake 24/7

There are special regulations for the tributaries

I started with cannon offshore pinch, clip releases last season and early this one. I think they are terrible because they are difficult to adjust , either to tight or to loose and when using them every week the pads wear out .

We switched to Chamberlin a few weeks ago and they are awesome !!

I also bought a blacks release last week and they seem just as good for 1/2 the price .

From here on out in my trolling I will only use the above 2 releases and ditch all the pinch pad releases

Thanks for the report

We returned yesterday from a 6 day run . Most days the lake was just to angry for us and we only put in a 2 days effort . We didn't feel like battling 4-6 footers just to try and fish . That said, I have been fishing the Mexico area EVERY weekend all summer since June 18th and fortunately the lake played nice every time out so we put many , many hrs and miles in that time . Our results have been dismal for the hrs logged. Folks here have been great trying to offer help and advice but as said you , we have seen very few fish on our sonar . To me , givin that , I don't think our approach or gear is the problem if the fish are just not there to be caught. It could be location but having the best of the best gear is not going to help without having fish around .

We have 2 more weekends to fish before I pull the boat for the season .

Lets hope they are just hiding " somewhere " out there and the river gets a FAR better showing then last season . If that's the case then I will at least realize we need to redefine our approach .

Thanks agin :

Rich

Right on Kj . Congrats at placing in the run hope the lake will play nice agin for us but seems like summer

I have Ben saying it can only get better , all last year too but it had been sporadic . Screen has been quit from plant to SR in am. Semi quiet from SR to plant in pm .

It can't get no worse ?