King size

[GAMBLER]

For years the DEC lake managers have preached that the kings size is falling due to lack if bait in the lake.  The past three years, the bait hatches have been way up (record three years ago follow by an ok hatch filled by another great hatch).  King size is still down.  I’m not buying their theory anymore.  Genetics are more than likely the culprit.  Is it time to sprinkle some new genetics in to see if we can get the world class salmon fishery we have to pump out 40’s again?  I’m not saying totally bring in new genetics.  Thoughts?  

[whaler1]

I’ve been saying that for 15 years plus. 

[Sk8man]

Diversifying the gene pool with solid components is always a good idea.

[fisherman21]

I have heard the workers who do the egg take at the salmon river grab the smaller salmon because they are easier to work with 

[brad43]

There's a video online for the Salmon Hatchery - you seeing their process with egg collection. There's no selection process going on - first come -> first serve, so you would only expect average results. And you know that smaller salmon need less daily consumption than larger salmon, so maybe there's some thought process going to this?

 

Brad

Edited July 26, 2023 by brad43

[BRsnow]

It was fun back then. We would fish off point breeze for a week in July and recall the salmon weighting 28-42lbs one trip. Visiting from Lake Michigan it was a huge trip for us .  Seems currently Lake Michigan has the bigger kings,

[chinook35]

I’ve seen reports that LO kings are spawning at 3 yo instead of 4 yo. That could account for the smaller size. They are missing a full year of growth. I second the motion that we should bring in fresh pacific chinooks to strengthen the gene pool   But with the DEC mindset to restore the native fishery, I doubt we will ever see new pacific stock introduced 

[GAMBLER]

2 minutes ago, chinook35 said:

I’ve seen reports that LO kings are spawning at 3 yo instead of 4 yo. That could account for the smaller size. They are missing a full year of growth. I second the motion that we should bring in fresh pacific chinooks to strengthen the gene pool   But with the DEC mindset to restore the native fishery, I doubt we will ever see new pacific stock introduced 

If you look at the GOSD tournament, the mature kings are way smaller than years past.  You used to never see a king under 30lbs on the board.  Not there are only a couple over 30lbs.  

[whaler1]

For a while in the fall derby if your King wasn’t 40 plus you weren’t top ten. 
In 2004 I caught a 34.5 early in the derby and almost just tossed it back. 
It ended up coming in third. Todays twenty pounders are yesterday’s thirties. 
 

[fcboats]

1 hour ago, GAMBLER said:

If you look at the GOSD tournament, the mature kings are way smaller than years past.  You used to never see a king under 30lbs on the board.  Not there are only a couple over 30lbs.  

This is cyclic.  There have been years where it is similar to this year however I agree that they are trending lower for weight.

[RH93]

Has the DEC made any comments against the idea of bringing in fresh genetics?

[brucehookedup]

Totally agree that they need to figure out how to get the size back. Not that i won,t take numbers over size ,but,,,,,,,

[GAMBLER]

58 minutes ago, RH93 said:

Has the DEC made any comments against the idea of bringing in fresh genetics?

In the past state of the lake meetings, they were against it.  They blame the bait biomass on the reason and not genetics.  Replacing the current genetic strains we have in Lake Ontario totally would not be a good idea since they have adapted to naturally reproduce.  Thats not what I'm asking for.  Blend new genetics with some (not all) of our Lake Ontario fish and see if we can get the size back..  If they can do this, I would love to see some Kenia River Strain kings! 

[RH93]

What strain was introduced into the great lakes? Tule? 

[GAMBLER]

3 minutes ago, RH93 said:

What strain was introduced into the great lakes? Tule? 

This is what I found on the web. 

 

There are two primary strains of Chinook salmon, originating from the West Coast of the United States...the Tule (too-lee) and the URB (upper river bright).    The Tule are the strain that populates the Great Lakes, and is known for its large size and fighting prowess as a game fish.    The Tule strain is genetically pre-disposed to “run” in late summer/early fall, while the URB is a late fall run.   

[Lucky D]

I spoke to a charter captain out of the little salmon river a couple of weeks ago why aren't we catching the big kings 35 plus pounds any more. He told me the charter captains meant with the DEC on this matter and was asked if they wanted more fish or bigger fish. He said all replied more which I get.Its how they make a living. they want clients to catch there limit of salmon. They want them to rebook. Me personally i fish for enjoyment I would rathger catch 1big king of yester year than 5 15lbers. lets see what size fish wins sonnys big fish this weekend. good luck to all who entered.

[Pappy]

This is a great topic!

It is amazing to me that there isn’t a 30 plus pounder in the Summer LOC!

It will be interesting to see if any of those big 30 plus pound fish run this fall!

It also appears to me that there are significantly less people fishing this year, maybe it’s just on the recreational side but there appears to be way fewer boats and activity in the marinas too.

 

[GAMBLER]

31 minutes ago, Pappy said:

This is a great topic!

It is amazing to me that there isn’t a 30 plus pounder in the Summer LOC!

It will be interesting to see if any of those big 30 plus pound fish run this fall!

It also appears to me that there are significantly less people fishing this year, maybe it’s just on the recreational side but there appears to be way fewer boats and activity in the marinas too.

 

There have been some 30+ lb kings caught on the North shore in the GOSD and the Silver Salmon derbies but not many compered to 10 years ago.   They will start to migrate to the salmon river soon and some will show up on the South shore and East end of the lake before the season is over.  

[Gator]

Introducing new genetics isn't as simple as it sounds, particularly if the current strain has adapted to L. Ontario...although that's more likely to be epigenetic than genetic. It would certainly be feasible. And outcrossing should result in a healthier stock. But predicting the outcome is a bit trickier. Anybody read Michael Crichton? I'm not talking Jurassic Salmon, but he was trained in science and got the idea that nature ALWAYS throws you a wild card. I suspect that's what's preventing DEC from making the attempt. But as a card-carrying gene jockey, I say go for it! 

[Sweet Caroline]

Just my opinion, but we have a lot of bait, but not nearly as much as we had in the 80s and early 90s. Seems like we have more salmon too, which decimate any good hatches we have pretty quickly. Not scientific, but high catch rates like we have now and smaller size usually indicate lower food supply. Granted we are all better fisherman now then we used to be, but back then it was rare to catch over 10 salmon in a morning. I think the salmon we have now have evolved in many ways to LO, part of it could be smaller size. I’m all for introducing new genetics. At the very least we should be taking eggs from the cream of the crop at the hatchery to help combat smaller size which makes the most sense to me. If a six foot tall man and woman had a baby, the baby most likely will be tall too. Pure logic on that one. 

[Sk8man]

1 hour ago, Sweet Caroline said:

J If a six foot tall man and woman had a baby, the baby most likely will be tall too. Pure logic on that one. 

Unfortunately that is not the only outcome possible as it doesn't take into account recessive genes. which could have a totally different outcome than that expected.

[Sweet Caroline]

I get it, but more likely that two tall people would have a tall child then two short people, lol. I would think that two large fish would have a better chance of producing large offspring then two small fish. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Sweet Caroline

[HB2]

What , we a 15 generations from the first stockings ? 

 

With all the natural reproduction and the crossbreeding of Nat and Stocked fish , I feel there is some acclimation to LO . 

 

These aren't you Grandpas fish we are catching now.  These are LO kings , not Pacific ocean kings . 

 

I'm for some sort of reintroduction . 

Mark them well and see what happens . Bur DEC sounds reluctant to do that because of fears something could happen to 

[ifishy]

with kings size is also partly a function of age.  over the years a larger and larger percentage of Lake O fish are running at 2 years old instead of 3 and very few are holding out that extra year.  the fact is that likely has its advantages in Lake O which is why its become more prevalent.  the kings here now have been both artificially and naturally selected for better survival in lake Ontario under current conditions.  the fact that we have notable if inconsistent natural reproduction speaks to that.   new genetics would likely be far less advantageous and to get them established in the population would be significantly harder in time and cost than just adding some new eggs and any introductions would likely be gone within a couple generations.   The fact is that lake Ontario is not the same as it used to be it is a changing and evolving ecosystem and it may not be able to have as many 30+lb fish.  We also tend to have selective memory.   40lb fish happened but it was not an every year occurrence.  

Good hatches of alewives do not mean good year classes if recruitment is low.  so if we had 3 large year classes as of this year than this years stockers would be the first to have access to that there whole life so we would see the size increase 2 years from now.   the fact is the numbers in the lake of 2 year olds seems to be really high this year and is likely caused by good recruitment of natural fish due to increased bait abundance.  

The DEC has done a good job of using real data and science to manage the fishery and they have taken input from stake holders on what outcomes to target.  Its easy to say things like they are small make them bigger but thats not how it works.   

I do think there could be some merit in running a multi year experiment to selectively pull older/larger fish for crossing and than tagging the young to see if they start to have a disproportionate representation in derbys or creates a small sub set of the population that goes 3 and even 4 years in the lake.  It could be done on a small scale within the current stocking strategy and provide the data needed to determine if its worthwhile to try on a larger scale.  

 

 

[BRsnow]

We came out every summer for close to a decade and did nit get 40’s each year but always got numerous mid 30’s. That is why we made the trip. It was consistent numbers of large fish.