King size

[codybuehler]

I’m no gene expert, but it seems like this is like the small farm pond closed genetics scenario but on a much larger and slower scale. If a farm pond has small fish, we go to a different pond with bucket biologist mindsets and introduce a couple new larger fish to the sick pond. Within a couple years you’ll start seeing healthier and larger fish.

 

Maybe the king size now is the eventual outcome no matter how you dope the gene pool? The 20’s, maybe 30 lb fish you see now is exactly ideal for the climate, population and biomass they have? 

 

Every closed community, people and wild animals alike, eventually find their happy genetics based on their environment. Introduce something new and it could be amazing or devastating. 
 

A few years ago down here in PA, the Fish and Boat commission conducted an “experiment” with the general public about whether people wanted more smaller trout stocked into streams or less larger trophy sized fish. The majority chose bigger fish with hopes of catching something they would only dream of. It didn’t go over well. You remember the one fish that was trophy class, but you also remember the days your arms are tired from reeling so many fish in. 
 

I haven’t been fishing that lake as long as most of you have been, but I can remember when 25-30lbs what average, now it’s the big ones!

[Lucky D]

I'v always been told the salmon spawn after 4yrs and die.So if a 2 or 3yr old fish go up river do they die also or go back to the lake. you would think the eggs in younger salmon aren't matured enough to hatch they still need that extra time. If any large numbers of young fish spawn and die  you would think you would have a poor catch rate the following years 

[RH93]

4 minutes ago, Lucky D said:

I'v always been told the salmon spawn after 4yrs and die.So if a 2 or 3yr old fish go up river do they die also or go back to the lake. you would think the eggs in younger salmon aren't matured enough to hatch they still need that extra time. If any large numbers of young fish spawn and die  you would think you would have a poor catch rate the following years 

I believe it's possible for smaller fish to follow the spawners part way up stream, and return to the lake without spawning. Thought i read that somehwere. I could be wrong though.

[ifishy]

Chinook daemon spawn once and die period they can mature early or wait an extra year there is always some variety in the age they spawn at that is normal variation meaning one catastrophic weather event wont make a population go extinct (hopefully)  fore lake o when they started the majority ran the river when they were 3.5 yeas old so 3 full summers of growth over the years a growing percentage is maturing and spawning at 2.5 so one less summer of growth it might be that our hatcheries are less accessible to larger fish it might be that the areas that have natural reproduction are more accessible to smaller younger fish it may be that larger fish are targeted successfully by steam fisherman it could be that an extra year in the lake makes them more likely to be caught and kept it is probably a combination of those and other factors

[Lucky D]

Maybe if our DEC would tag some salmon like they did lake trout they would have a better idea of what ages are going up river. The lake trout will be the new big fish of the lake 

[GAMBLER]

34 minutes ago, Lucky D said:

Maybe if our DEC would tag some salmon like they did lake trout they would have a better idea of what ages are going up river. The lake trout will be the new big fish of the lake 

The DEC has a good grasp on what year classes return to the hatchery.  They know fish are spawning younger than the past.  Coded wire tags have been used for decades on Lake Ontario by the DEC.

[Gill-T]

Evolving kings

No emeralds to jump start shakers

Artificial selection at Altmar 

Bigs in rivers more likely to get snagged

Better fishing fleet

Internet fishing reports

Less older class alewives

Spin Doctors and UV spoon tape

[BRsnow]

People are using much heavier line, perhaps the larger kings are becoming wary of higher LB test.

[GAMBLER]

7 minutes ago, BRsnow said:

People are using much heavier line, perhaps the larger kings are becoming wary of higher LB test.

If that was the case, they would still return to the hatchery.

[Jomat]

Couple years ago I caught a hen king in cattaraugus creek in November….full of eggs…she was 6-8lbs max.  Kings haven’t been stocked in Erie since the late 90’s.  That’s what genetics can do in just a handful of generations.

[RH93]

43 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

If that was the case, they would still return to the hatchery.

 

Assuming the big fish are going to the hatchery. 

 

The first time I went salmon fishing (15 years ago) we fished some super small tributary of the Salmon River. And there were some really big fish going up that tiny creek. Wish I knew the name of the creek. I just remember dragging the fish back to the car through farm fields. 

[HB2]

Fish sizes are down across the board by like 30% from years ago . 

 

The kings have length but don't have girth . Look at old pics . 

 

The bigger browns use to be obese. An 11# fish gets you on the board now. 

 

Many guys are fishing offshore and we can't fill the LOC board with 10# plus steelhead . 

 

I'm hearing the bait has rebounded but by how much ? Certainly not even close to the levels of the 70s , 80s ,and 90s . I see a lot of bait inshore in my area and even that is concentrated to certain areas . But I don't see the huge schools offshore like I use to .

 

My theory about the kings acclimation  to LO might be somewhat true but what about the Browns and steelhead ? 

 

[BRsnow]

5 hours ago, HB2 said:

Fish sizes are down across the board by like 30% from years ago . 

 

The kings have length but don't have girth . Look at old pics . 

 

The bigger browns use to be obese. An 11# fish gets you on the board now. 

 

Many guys are fishing offshore and we can't fill the LOC board with 10# plus steelhead . 

 

I'm hearing the bait has rebounded but by how much ? Certainly not even close to the levels of the 70s , 80s ,and 90s . I see a lot of bait inshore in my area and even that is concentrated to certain areas . But I don't see the huge schools offshore like I use to .

 

My theory about the kings acclimation  to LO might be somewhat true but what about the Browns and steelhead ? 

 

The browns are running 20lb in WI as well with kings sizes going back up again. WI seems to be doing something right,

[Gill-T]

Then there is this. 
 

https://www.wivb.com/news/investigates/forever-chemicals-buffalo-sewer-urged-to-stop-treating-landfill-wastewater/amp/

 

these legacy chemicals that have been shown to effect hormonal activity could be to blame for two year old kings reach maturity at a younger age. We are at the end of the waste stream. Michigan water is cleaner. 

[Gator]

gill-t agreed, epigenetics

 

good point about browns and steelhead, though the later could be thiamine related

 

sorry single finger typing cheetos are soooo good

[ifishy]

the steel head are still suffering from that large die off several years back there are not a lot of fish in the lake more than 6 years old  but with the cleaner water fish have to swim faster and farthur when feeding so there is some slimming in profile as well.  this is really visable in steal head.   for the brown there are still some pigs out there and they feed heavy on goby at times  iI cant say there is as many as there was 5 or 6 years ago but the brown population in the lake is very heavy and with big fish at the top end for sure.   its possible that there may be other tecniques that would better target those large ones in the current lake conditions and trolling just does not get as many of the slobs but that is pure speculation

[GAMBLER]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:00 AM, HB2 said:

Fish sizes are down across the board by like 30% from years ago . 

 

The kings have length but don't have girth . Look at old pics . 

 

The bigger browns use to be obese. An 11# fish gets you on the board now. 

 

Many guys are fishing offshore and we can't fill the LOC board with 10# plus steelhead . 

 

I'm hearing the bait has rebounded but by how much ? Certainly not even close to the levels of the 70s , 80s ,and 90s . I see a lot of bait inshore in my area and even that is concentrated to certain areas . But I don't see the huge schools offshore like I use to .

 

My theory about the kings acclimation  to LO might be somewhat true but what about the Browns and steelhead ? 

 

Browns are still big in Lake Ontario.  Lacking year classes due to cormorant predation are the reason for lack of big browns around.  

[HB2]

I beg to differ 

 

The average size of browns is down the same as Kings and Rainbows 

 

A good indication of that is the LOC leaderboard for both spring and summer of this year . 

 

This spring they had a hard time getting 20 places on the board . That's unheard of in the past . You can blame the cormerants or the stream guys all you want but some of the fish survive all that and should grow to the normal sizes we have seen in the past .

 

 

 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

10 hours ago, HB2 said:

I beg to differ 

 

The average size of browns is down the same as Kings and Rainbows 

 

A good indication of that is the LOC leaderboard for both spring and summer of this year . 

 

This spring they had a hard time getting 20 places on the board . That's unheard of in the past . You can blame the cormerants or the stream guys all you want but some of the fish survive all that and should grow to the normal sizes we have seen in the past .

 

 

 

 

 

It’s missing or weak year classes with the browns.  When the DEC dumped browns on Edgemere Drive two years ago by my work, the cormorants had days of fun picking off the browns that were stocked.  The spring was goofy and the browns were not around.  We have seen springs like this before.  Rochester Sportfishing put a 23.05lb brown in the boat for his clients during the summer LOC but they were not in the derby.  They also put a 18.5 on the deck the week before the derby.   Fishing pressure and issues with stocking (cormorants) is a huge issue with the browns.  If you spend a lot of time fishing browns in the summer, you will see their preferred area they summer in does not have a lack of bait all season.  They also eat more than just alewife and there isn’t a shortage of gobies for them to eat.  Steelhead size seemed up this year from the ones we caught.  The LOC leaderboard for steelhead is not a good size indicator when the king bite is amazing inside of 200’ and has been all season. Why would a captain or rec guy run over a great king bite to burn way more fuel to chase fish offshore?  If you don’t fish where steelhead spend most of their summer, you are not going to find many big ones.  This is also a reason for the brown board being lean.  East end boats (Sodus and Oswego) usually lean on browns when king fishing is slow.  They have had phenomenal king fishing all season and are not fishing them.  When king fishing is hot, captains leave browns, steelhead and lakers alone.  2021 Summer loc brown division had 3 browns over 19 in the top and the bottom was 15 and change…..

Edited July 31, 2023 by GAMBLER

[Traveling Circus]

Fall 2000 LOC Salmon results....... 20+ kings entered over 35 lbs.

[chinook35]

1 hour ago, Traveling Circus said:

Fall 2000 LOC Salmon results....... 20+ kings entered over 35 lbs.

My son and I were in the derby. We took a 28# 6oz  king to woodies and she just laughed. 😝 

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, chinook35 said:

My son and I were in the derby. We took a 28# 6oz  king to woodies and she just laughed. 😝 

We weighed a 33 that year and couldn’t believe it didn’t make the board!

[Gator]

That's us in fourth place with a fish Jeff caught on Nothing but Net. Heck of a year. 

[ChrisS]

21 hours ago, Traveling Circus said:

Fall 2000 LOC Salmon results....... 20+ kings entered over 35 lbs.

Wow.  Those are tanks.  It'd be interesting to get all of the LOC data into a spreadsheet and do some analysis on the weights.  There's usually some bias (either way) on single data points or years that may have been really good for other reasons, but shouldn't be considered representative of what the lake should produce.  The idea that the salmon population is adapting to Lake Ontario is interesting and probably the right direction.  These fish aren't going into the salt and gorging on giant bait balls. There could be several variables that are selecting for smaller fish. Also, just because bait populations are up, doesn't mean that there is a similar biomass as in years past. 

[BRsnow]

Even those fish from 2000 are smaller than the mid 90’s . Maybe it is cyclical Lake Michigan is seeing a renaissance of size and numbers.