Time to change?

[Still dreaming]

How much time do you give it before changing baits or leaders on ff or meat if down temp is good and marks are also?

[whaler1]

Depends on skips and weedy scumlines. Don’t want to be dragging garbage. 

[HB2]

I go no more than 45 min , but more like 30. 

 

Can't tell you how many times lure  

came back with hooks foulded or tangled ,weeds , etc. Even being carefull. 

[GAMBLER]

It depends.  Are you not marking much? If I have a good screen and stuff isn't firing, I change. If I’m in search mode and haven’t marked much, I stick with my usuals.  

[Still dreaming]

Thanks for the reply. Just so many colors of flys, spoons etc. It's crazy

[GAMBLER]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:55 PM, Still dreaming said:

Thanks for the reply. Just so many colors of flys, spoons etc. It's crazy

I have hundreds of spoons/flies/flashers  and only use a handful of colors.  Stick with what works!  

[Sk8man]

5 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

I have hundreds of spoons/flies/flashers  and only use a handful of colors.  Stick with what works!  

Ditto

[JLK]

I suspect colour is grossly overrated. I opened a salmons stomach, all I saw was small fish, dark on top silver on the bottom withe large black eyes. I suspect that's why 95% of Spoons have silver back side, and that's why the Salmon strike, flashing silver looks like lunch. 

 

I may be wrong but I suspect marketing puts out all the colors to catch fishermen, not fish.

[Pa223]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:28 AM, JLK said:

I suspect colour is grossly overrated. I opened a salmons stomach, all I saw was small fish, dark on top silver on the bottom withe large black eyes. I suspect that's why 95% of Spoons have silver back side, and that's why the Salmon strike, flashing silver looks like lunch. 

 

I may be wrong but I suspect marketing puts out all the colors to catch fishermen, not fish.

so agree with this     Though I am guilty of buying every color out there i think speed / action while fishing at the right depth (where the fish are) is the key

[Sk8man]

I've been saying for years that the most important factors seem to be action of lure, proximity to the fish. and appearing "vulnerable" to the fish attracted to it. I have believed for some time that color is down the line in priority. Most fish are "opportunists" so the above fits that model.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Sk8man

[Pair of Jacks]

Interesting discussion regarding lure/bait color.  I am just learning the big lake salmon/trout/walleye trolling.  Before my first trip to Henderson Bay in May 2022 I basically reached out to our cottage AirBnB host who was also a charter captain and several folks here on LOU to get the cliff notes for success.  Unfortunately the weather did cooperate as we got only 2.5 days out of 7 to fish.  We scored several browns, pike, and even some early (but out of season bass) trolling the bay.  The one constant was the learning curve.  I caught fish on every color of spoon I tried; stick baits were very selective with big rapala (j10 and j12) in a blue top, orange side and white/silver belly being the dominant choice for success.  However, I learned  two valuable lessons:  first,  just like Chief Brody …I’m gonna need a bigger boat and second, there is a lot more to trolling than going slow and dragging lures behind the boat.
 

So at the recommendation of a contributor to LOU, I purchased and read Capt Dan Keating’s Great Lakes Salmon and Trout Fishing:  The Complete Trollers Guide;  listened to several YouTube/Podcasts of LO Captains and scoured LOU discussions constantly…taking in the knowledge, wisdom and experience presented herein… 

 

Here is what I have distilled:  while color is a consideration it’s is one of many variables in the the trolling dynamic, but the one constant in everyone’s advice is honing your skill in presentation of whatever lure or bait you are deploying in your spread to what the target species are consuming.  Secondarily, whatever you are doing remember each component of your spread will either compliment or detract from your overall presentation.  After 60 years of fishing I am still studying and learning.

 

I grew up fishing Catherine Creek for Rainbows in the spring and browns in the fall…as a youngster I got pretty good at catching vs fishing.  My maternal grandfather introduced me to trolling for Lakers out of his antique 14’ Penn Yan with a Seth Green Cooper setup up and big drop sinkers on Keuka Lake in the early 1960s.  The ROE then was based on those tried and true old sailer adages: Red at night sailers delight; red in the morn sailer take warn; wind from the North fish won’t come forth;  Wind from the East fishing is the least; with from the South the bait is in the fish’s mouth; and finally wind from the West fishing is the best. 5 to 6 hours going up and down the Lake from Hammondsport to the Bluff and back was pretty boring.  OBTW— no electronics or even topo maps in those days…it was all local knowledge and experience by doing.
 

Throughout the years I moved on to bass fishing and then walleye and finally both wild and land-locked striper fishing and now I am coming full circle to Salmon and Trout.  The one constant I learned is learning never stops because if it does you are either dead or fishing vs catching.

 

Thank you to all of the great contributors here on LOU for sharing your knowledge, skill, and wisdom on the art and science of Salmon and Trout fishing on LO!!!

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Pair of Jacks

[Still dreaming]

I appreciate all the Great responses to this and I think the fish hawk was the best investment yet 

[Crestliner]

On 8/16/2023 at 1:09 PM, Sk8man said:

Ditto

All ya need is a suttun. Sounds like an ole cig commercial .

[Sk8man]

8 hours ago, Crestliner said:

All ya need is a suttun. Sounds like an ole cig commercial .

Not exactly sure where that is coming from but maybe my rationale for thinking the way I do should be mentioned.

Starting with physiological factors: color perception is different for most species and is thought to be different from human color perception as well as many species including fish see more of the electromagnetic spectrum (.e. wavelengths) than we do, and possibly including UV for example. Color perception is complicated and there are other physiological components that are more basic to functioning in most living organisms and more important to their survival. a primary one is detection of movement, another is the perception of figure/ground. These are more primary (primitive) functions in the brain and neurological systems and relate to survival of the species. In this case, the fish needs to detect movement and determine whether predator or prey. Trout and salmons eyes are located forward and toward the top of their heads so they mainly locate possible predators and live food sources looking forward or up when swimming in the water column. Any movement may either attract or repel them. Figure/ground (or the discrimination of foreground object from the background and contrast) comes into play here while looking up or forward the fish detects the shape and size of an object along with the movement and its shape is highlighted by the sky and gives the characteristic shape they know as bait or else  something to stay away from possibly. This may also be a reason why black or dark lures often seem  to work real well as they stand out more against to sky. If the object appears "vulnerable" in some way they go after it if determined to be potential food and not something to stay away from. This relationship can occur (and does) even in very unclear water along with possible vibrations, chemical scent etc. If a fish was highly dependent on color alone it would not be adaptive to their survival. Is this a "personal" theory ? Yes. It is based on knowledge of fish physiology, animal behavior and perception/cognition, and over seventy years of fishing for salmon and trout. Are there other factors? probably and including color perception. That is why I said what I said.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sk8man

[13owhunter]

While color can be important it is not the most important variable.  I try making turns if I'm marking and not getting bit as you are both speeding up and slowing down your presentations at the same time.  Outside rod gets bit and I'll bump up the speed and vice versa. Problem is that there are too many variables in this game to fully control. Control as many as you can and don't over think it.  I don't change lures very frequently unless I'm seeing lots of streakers and no bites personally.  I ran 2 of the same spoons every time out up until recently. Checking lines frequently to make sure they are running correctly is something you can control. 

 

My 2 cents.. 

[JLK]

Physics and fishing. Color matters, but not necessarily the way we think. Light is different under water.

Physics and fishing 

 

 

https://thegreatlakesfisherman.com/lure-color-selection/ 

[Pa223]

Great discussion for sure. 
copying Gill-Ts video link here as in my opinion it visually demonstrates what we are all trying to avoid (washing 

Vs fishing)

awesome video Gill-T!!!

[HB2]

What are you guys talking about ? Color definitely maters . 

 

My favorites are my favorites because the fish hit them and they are proven . Not because I like how they look . 

 

I make a point to run different color spoons of the same model . And they still hit my favorites . 

 

Some days it doesn't matter , they hit anything that moves . Most days they are pickey . 

 

And that goes for my soft plastics for Bass and panfish.  

[13owhunter]

Using a camera has been eye opening for me as shown in the video above.  From my own experience, calibrating your fish hawk with a camera is the only way to guarantee your lures are running the way you want them to.  Last time I was out I couldn't believe how my spoon was running when surface speed and fish hawk said I was trolling just over 2mph. Video suggested I was running on the fast end of things.  Slightly faster and I think I would have lost effectiveness.  Makes you wonder how many spoons you have that don't run effectively within the full speed range.....  Wouldn't take much of a bend to impact speed range. Great info on this discussion... 

[Sk8man]

Yes that video really captured the reality of the situation. Trolling into or against the current and across it may be one of the most important factors out there and just randomly changing out spoons because of no fish action may not be the answer. Aside from the obvious changing lures for the color and size etc. it does have a couple or more useful functions though. Taking care of flea build-up, which in addition is a pain to clean off in bulk it may also allow fish to see your line and possibly spook them, and especially with downriggers the release of the line may trigger following or nearby fish and sending it back down may attraction as well. When I release downriggers I usually let them "float" upward for a bit and sometimes they take hits this way (rather than fast reeling them in immediately). When trolling for browns near bottom in 40-90 ft of water this can be very effective. Two seemingly "identical" lures may in fact not be so identical in action as even minor changes can influence this like two different sized or types of swivel snaps for instance or slight bends in a spoon (possibly unnoticed). I think trolling WITH the current is mostly a waste of time but I'm sure others may swear by it but as in the video it kills the action of the spoons.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sk8man

[JLK]

Trolling with current should be just as good, but requires increasing GPS speed. 

 

Is the current in Lake O. the same at the surface S down 50 ft? If so a spoon over the side at the surface would let you check the action.

[Sk8man]

1 hour ago, JLK said:

Trolling with current should be just as good, but requires increasing GPS speed. 

 

Is the current in Lake O. the same at the surface S down 50 ft? If so a spoon over the side at the surface would let you check the action.

My hunch is that increasing GPS speed may be irrelevant. Subterranean currents are complex and often follow structure in most lakes and Lake Ontario has mixed currents as well but not as much structure and drop-offs that may you see in other lakes; BUT it has strong inflow from the Niagara River at the west end and strong outflow at the east end and the St.Lawrence which probably greatly influence the currents along with wind direction and velocity.  So underneath the water is anyone's guess about strength and even in some cases direction as with mixed currents and you can run in and out of them as well in different parts of the lake and even within the water column at different depths.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Sk8man

[HB2]

You guys a WAY overthinking this . 

 

You speed probe gives you your speed at the ball . Go with it . 

[JLK]

All I need now is a speed probe  

 

and a ball

 

and a bigger boat

 

...

[Crestliner]

SK8 man I dont  Know how old you are But I have been fishing Canandaigua lake since I was 10 years old . With grampa  using copper vic rigs , then Seth green rigs . Now 65 using Riggers ,Dipseys and in line boards. Still never been skunked. When i put on heavy suttuns no good. when I put on strike kings , Flasher fly and that other stuff for Lake Ontario salmon no good here. Sutton flutter always kills it. Some days fast 2.5, some days slow 1.5. So thats where that comes from !!!!!. I have had 4 fish on at once lots of times .If fish ain't a bitten. I get out the old seth green rigs and stackem up with sutton 71 ,35, 22. Drag lead on bottom gets every time. There all you guys got my secrets. HaHa That why they call it fish'n not Catch'n. Ive have won the derby before to not braggin just sayin