This should make everyone angry!!

[Yankee Troller]

On 10/21/2023 at 5:45 AM, HB2 said:

What goes on in the tribs , really doesn't affect the quality of the fishing in the lake . 

 

Stop blaming trib anglers for the woes of the fishery .

 

Are you 100% sure about this? I'm not asking to close down every trib. I just want something done to the one that services this WHOLE fishery. You don't think the bigger fish yanked out of the system (most times illegally) prior to getting to the hatchery hasn't affected the gene pool at all? It's not about egg take quota. It's about breeding the biggest fish in the system with each other. You can get 100 charter boat captains on here and 95% will tell you this season was amazing. Me, the last two seasons have been embarrassing with the smallest size Salmon ever in the system.

 

Here's some LOC history for the 10th place Salmon over the years. So, what have we done in recent years? We've cut stocking becasue of baitfish shortages, yet the DEC is willing to increase stocking in 2024 becasue of good looking baitfish assessments. However, our Salmon are the smallest ever? Don't you think if there was this surplus of GOOD bait in the lake our Salmon would be gorging?

 

MEDIAN	Fall
2023	27.05
2022	27.15
2021	29.03
2020	28.04
2019	29.12
2018
2017	30.08
2016	32.01
2015	29.02
2014	30.04
2013	33.04
2012	32.09
2011	32.04
2010	34.06
2009	31.15
2005	30.01

 

 

18 hours ago, yank my line said:

I have watched the workers at the hatchery take the big salmon and throw them without stripping or milking. They like to handle 15 to 20 pounders.

 

I sure hope this is not the case, but they are also the ones that tell us sperm from jacks is really potent and performs well. I am 100% against the use of sperm from jacks to feed this system.

[HB2]

Last year I caught a bunch of Jacks skien fishing the creek . This year I did not catch one . And did not see anyone else catch one . So I'm going to take a wait and see attitude on this . Maybe next year will be better size wise . We had a few  good years  of bait and the stocking is going to increase . 

 

And we did catch a bunch of 2 year olds this year that had good size 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by HB2

[Yankee Troller]

28 minutes ago, HB2 said:

Last year I caught a bunch of Jacks skien fishing the creek . This year I did not catch one . And did not see anyone else catch one . So I'm going to take a wait and see attitude on this . Maybe next year will be better size wise . We had a few  good years  of bait and the stocking is going to increase . 

 

And we did catch a bunch of 2 year olds this year that had good size 

 

 

Doesn't matter if you catch jacks in the tribs or not. They are there and the DEC WILL use them.

 

You hope all you want to get back to bigger Salmon, but I provided you with almost 20yrs of data. If you can't see a declining size with that I don't know how else to show it. There's no reason we can't have great fishing and big fish. 

[HB2]

My point is I did not catch jacks this year and got a bunch last year , more than any other year for some reason.  

 

And I know size is down . I see it .  And realistically , NOBODY , knows for sure why . We all can speculate , and I have my thoughts , but it's just that , speculation . 

 

So untill we know exactly why , I feel you can't shut down the livelihoods of those who have invested a lot and depend on the fishery for their living.

 

Hey man , I got a lot of kings this year , and a lot of 2 year olds . Next year might be great . 

[Yankee Troller]

6 minutes ago, HB2 said:

Hey man , I got a lot of kings this year , and a lot of 2 year olds . Next year might be great . 

 

We can all guess that fish are 1, 2, or 3 years old on a boat, but were they 2yr olds we were catching? Only labs with samples off of fish can identify that. Here's a thought. How about some of that data the DEC takes samples at each tournament. No tourney team is trying to bring in 1 and 2 year old fish. You have the best guys out there targeting the best fish.

 

7 minutes ago, HB2 said:

And I know size is down . I see it .  And realistically , NOBODY , knows for sure why . We all can speculate , and I have my thoughts , but it's just that , speculation . 

 

You bring up a great point, and I bet money there are no projects or research being done on this. One of the most lucrative fisheries in NYS and no one is curious why size is declining. Are we not taking the right genes at the hatchery? Is it diet related? Is constant inbreeding causing this? With all the colleges in NYS we couldn't get one involved in trying to figure this out?

[HB2]

 Michigan went thru a long time of small fish . The general consensus was that it was from a baitfish crash. An it seems like things are getting back to normal there .  

So there is hope . 

 

If the average size is bigger next year , we can assume those fish we were catching that were 12 to 18# were 2 year olds . 

 

 

[Yankee Troller]

14 hours ago, HB2 said:

 Michigan went thru a long time of small fish . The general consensus was that it was from a baitfish crash. An it seems like things are getting back to normal there .  

So there is hope . 

 

If the average size is bigger next year , we can assume those fish we were catching that were 12 to 18# were 2 year olds . 

 

 

 

If you talk to the big name charter captains on the lake (ones who sit on the lake board) they say we never had a baitfish crash/problem. I don't agree with their views, and I think our baitfish population took a massive hit with those two year classes.

 

I don't think there is a need to assume year classes in this world with the science and technology we have. If the DEC really wants to understand these Salmon and Trout they need to step up and do more. We all want answers. There's no reason to wait a year to see what age a fish is.

[LongLine]

Well, I guess size matters...(or so she said...heh, heh, heh)

 

The DEC has collected data on Chinook size for a long time and has published it in the Lake Ontario Unit Annual reports.  Here's their graph from 2021 report.

Interesting is the spike in 2011-2013.  However looking at their data they didn't have a very large sample size in those years which makes those data points suspicious.  (My stat's teacher taught that any less sample than 30 couldn't accurately represent a population.)

While I agree there have been ups & downs in the quantity and quality of the Alewife populations, there seems to me that something else is going on here and it's been going on for even longer.

 

My guess is that it is genetics, but not that some lab is playing around.  Stocked fish are fed and treated for diseases not size. When did the "big dip" in size (according to DEC data) occur?  Back in 2002-2004. When did  natural reproduction of salmon come into the lime-light?  Actually it was first noticed in '98-'99 but not taken seriously except by some scientists at ESF who showed that it could be happening on a larger scale than anyone thought. 

 

Anecdotaly, it was reported that Natural Repo fish were feistier and at one of the annual meetings, it was reported that they were leaner and a little smaller than the clipped fish.  (It was theorized that Nat Repro fish weren't as well fed during the 1st few weeks of life. ) When the DEC finally undertook the study, they concluded that a substantial amount of Nat Repro was occurring. 

 

Given that the fish reach sexual maturity in 3-4 years, is it possible that some genetic mixing unknowingly occurred at egg-take time?  Do the graphs show that?  How do you tell the difference between stocked and Nat Rpro fish? Even though there still is some variablity shown on the graphs, the trend is definitely downward.

 

Another question arrises.  Namely Pen rearing. While we all agree that it's great for survivalbilty, does having a different diet than the Naturals for those few weeks, have any bearing?
 

[Yankee Troller]

5 minutes ago, LongLine said:

Another question arrises.  Namely Pen rearing. While we all agree that it's great for survivalbilty, does having a different diet than the Naturals for those few weeks, have any bearing?
 

 

When they did the tagging study pen were bigger at age 0-2, but at age 3 is when everything evened out.

[LongLine]

I'll believe that.  But when did pen rearing start?  Pre 2004? (Actually 2001 given they had to grow for 3 yrs)  i.e. what did they catch up to?  The graph above shows two distinct weight ranges for 3 yr olds that breaks thereabouts 2004. Basically 18-22 for pre 2004 and 15-18 for 2005 to 2021.

 

When I graph the summer weight gain mean data differences (DEC numbers above) it looks like this:

 

The average gain from '91 to '04 is 1.1 whereas after 2004 is 1.9.  Throwing out the years 2010 & 2011, (due to low sample size) the average is 1.3.  So if the average weight gain went up, or basically stayed the same, the question is so why didn't the yearly mean weights go up to previous weight ranges shown on 2nd previous graph? (i.e. 18-22)

 

If the average weight gain went up, or stayed the same, we can't blame alewife quantity.  We also can't blame alewife nutritional value due to invasives, cleaner or warmer lake. It has to be genetic.  I can't fathom (no pun intended) anyone genetically engineering a smaller fish. 

 

 

 

 

[HB2]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:54 AM, Yankee Troller said:

 

Are you 100% sure about this? I'm not asking to close down every trib. I just want something done to the one that services this WHOLE fishery. You don't think the bigger fish yanked out of the system (most times illegally) prior to getting to the hatchery hasn't affected the gene pool at all? It's not about egg take quota. It's about breeding the biggest fish in the system with each other. You can get 100 charter boat captains on here and 95% will tell you this season was amazing. Me, the last two seasons have been embarrassing with the smallest size Salmon ever in the system.

 

Here's some LOC history for the 10th place Salmon over the years. So, what have we done in recent years? We've cut stocking becasue of baitfish shortages, yet the DEC is willing to increase stocking in 2024 becasue of good looking baitfish assessments. However, our Salmon are the smallest ever? Don't you think if there was this surplus of GOOD bait in the lake our Salmon would be gorging?

 

MEDIAN	Fall
2023	27.05
2022	27.15
2021	29.03
2020	28.04
2019	29.12
2018
2017	30.08
2016	32.01
2015	29.02
2014	30.04
2013	33.04
2012	32.09
2011	32.04
2010	34.06
2009	31.15
2005	30.01

 

 

 

I sure hope this is not the case, but they are also the ones that tell us sperm from jacks is really potent and performs well. I am 100% against the use of sperm from jacks to feed this system.

I have been lucky enough to have fished this since the first stockings . Was not  uncommon  to get a 30# salmon , 15# steelhead or brown. 

 

For some reason or another , the size has been down . Nobody knows for sure . But this year we had great fishing on the lake . Good numbers of kings . Better than the last 2 . I'm happy with that . I'm glad and greatfull there are kings out there to catch , even if they are somewhat smaller . Hopefully the people who give us this great fishery which is literally our my back door can figure it out and keep it going . And who says that they are not studding as to why this is happening ? 

 

I guess it bothers me a bit when a cooler full of 15# to #25 kings is an embarrassment . When a day like that is deemed a failure , gentlemen, we are in hell  . Which begs the question ,what do you really want ? 

 

We could be fishing for catfish . 

[LongLine]

A lot of people and agencies have put a lot of hard work into it and built Lake Ontario into a world class fishery.  The majority of out-of-staters come here for a chance to catch a trophy size Salmon. It has become an economic boom to many local economies as well as to the state.  

 

Some may be very happy with 10 or 15 Lbr's but with a daily limit of 3 and a 25 Lb minimum to enter the LOC, IMO, the tourist numbers (and $) will decrease given that the size of the "trophies" has a downward trend.

 

Additionally, according to reports on this board, the majority of us, when we catch "little ones," move deeper to search out the "bigger ones."

 

I believe it behooves us, the fishery and the economy to find out why there is a downward trend and possibly reverse it, or at least stabilize it.
 

[Gill-T]

Salmon and trout are good indicator species as they tend to do better in cleaner water. If there is some environmental reason for the smaller salmon, it would prove to be a worthwhile study. It might be something super small and unforeseen such as what happened to some Pacific salmon stocks that started to flounder because of some chemical used in the tire industry to reduce wear was found to enter streams as runoff and cause salmon infertility in tiny concentrations. 

[HB2]

I would love to see the good old days. 

And yes , it should be looked into as to why there is a downward trend . 

 

But maybe the ecosystem can't support what once was . Or it's genetics , or it's something else . Someday maybe we will know why . Could be simple , could be very complex. 

 

 

 

A 20# king is not a small fish and fights well .  Maybe not as well as a 35# but that's what's available currently .

 

I am looking forward to next year with hope and enthusiasm that things will be better than the last and at least the same . I'm not going to cry about what we don't have . I appreciate what we do have .  

 

We should all hope for the best . But some might have to get their heads wrapped around the fact that this is how it will be , at least short term . And hope it doesn't get worse . 

 

With all the 12#  to 18# kings caught this season , we will see if they turn into 30#ers this year . 

 

I look at Small mouth Bass . The gobbies showed up . Then VHS . They adapted and feed on gobbies . A 5# fish pre goby was  a trophy .  Now tourny guys get limits of 6# + fish . Makes you think . 

 

 

 

 

[Yankee Troller]

13 hours ago, HB2 said:

And who says that they are not studding as to why this is happening ? 

 

I attend every meeting that is open to the public. I've never heard of a study or experiment by the state to figure this out. Wouldn't you like to know where the top GOSD and LOC fish each year were bred? Whatever got those fish to be the biggest in the lake is something we should concentrate on. 

 

13 hours ago, HB2 said:

I guess it bothers me a bit when a cooler full of 15# to #25 kings is an embarrassment . When a day like that is deemed a failure , gentlemen, we are in hell  . Which begs the question ,what do you really want ?

 

Since you've been around since the beginning you should know we've had both. Why not have good fishing with good size fish?

[LongLine]

The "wait and see"  approach is a re-active standpoint.  The good old days aren't coming back.  Unfortunately reacting to events on Big-O have taken a long time in recent history.  Add 3-4 years after implementation to see substantial results for the Salmon. (Their time to mature.) 

 

We've seen phosphorous & chemical decline. We've seen stocking cuts.  We've seen decreases in daily limits. We've seen this size decline for near 20 years.

 

I believe in pro-active approaches. 

 

Rather than sit at computer complaining, here's a suggestion:  Close the Salmon River, 7-10 days (one time event) for Salmon during egg-take time. Hire students from ESF, Cornell, Buffalo, Potsdam etc. Take the eggs & milt from large salmon and put in one "bucket."  Take eggs & milt from smaller salmon & put in another "bucket."  Raise/treat them the same; differentially tag them (with the clipping/marking trailer); Pen Rear them side by side, (perhaps at the SR.) Monitor them at fishing tournaments. Ask charter boats to be on lookout and "mail" them/data in. Then finally collect and analyze marked samples at the appropriate egg take time and report the results.

 

I'm hoping someone from DEC is monitoring this thread and will chime in.

[Gill-T]

I don’t think we need a study to tell us how evolution works. We know how fitness drives the selection process on passing on genes. I think we just need a directive or policy passed down from fishery leadership to Altmar that states only the biggest and healthiest specimens are selected for egg take and milting. Simple. 

[HB2]

I'm all good for bigger fish . But that's not the lake we have right now . Maybe something can be done . 

But we still have kings and trout  to catch which are of good size right now  . And I will be out there fishing for them and loving the opportunity  to be able to do it . Who knows , might be better this year and the problem will solve itself .  

 

I'm kind of sick of the crying on here about every little thing . First it's trib guys ruining the fishery , then it's Atlantic's , or not enough kings stocked ( maybe too many caused this problem ) , or too many Lakers ( which also might be a problem )  ,or they are wrong on the bait assessment ,etc . Or DEC guys that dedicated their lives to this are idiots . 

 

I enjoy fishing , I really think some of you guys only  like catching .  

[Gill-T]

Thank you for doing your part HB2 to contribute to a thread titled “This should make everybody angry”. 

[HB2]

These things morph into other things.

 

It's a discussion board . 

[LongLine]

Policy makers don't do anything without proof of a benefit to "someone."

 

I love problems that solve themselves, unfortunately I've never seen one do it.  Optimistic P-R certainly won't tackle one that's 1st showed up 20 yrs ago.  Tourists come here to "catch" a trophy.  If they do, they'll return.  If they don't, they won't brag about it to their friends nor return.  How many posts were there this year that included pictures of "little ones?"

 

The DEC always asks for stakeholder input, but the number of respondents is always much less than the number of people who will be affected.  This issue has economic impact as well as affecting the "quality of fishing" in NYS.

 

I've been fishing Big-O & embayments longer than most members on this board have been born. I love being out on the water, away from the phone, keyboard and neighborhood.  Unfortunately, I've seen Walleyes and Northerns become sparse in the embayments as well as seen Smallmouth limits in the lake become a rarity.  I've seen catch rates on the lake go up, but angler effort go down, (Which tells me that guys who are good at it do very well, but those that don't, don't come back.)  I used to see summertime boat launch parking lots packed with fishermen and I certainly didn't see that this year or last.  Just a few years ago, I'd see 25-30 boats out there in the summer. (A lot of them smaller than me) This last summer, I saw maybe 6, at most. (All of which were much bigger than me.)  In the "old days", I've seen hundreds.

 

Point being: If you care about the Salmon fishing in Big-O, let the DEC know.  BTW, Minimum weight for spring LOC is 20 Lbs.  This year's 20th place went to a 20.07Lb'r.  If the trend continues, there won't be a 20th place finisher in the next. 
 

[HB2]

And a call to the DEC will accomplish exactly what ? The data you posted shows they know what's going on with weights . 

 

This I  do know ......

 

Increase in king stockings due to more bait last 2 years  

 

A good class of 12# to 18# kings this past year .

 

So at this point , about the only thing we can do is wait and see . If there are 27# to 33 # kings on the spring  LOC board  , problem solved . And it was from lack of bait . 

 

Other than that , have fun catching  whats out there . I know I will . The fishing was great this year . The catching also . I'm excited about next year . 

 

And I still say it's time for a new hatchery . And raise some kings there like they use to at Calidonia in and see what happens . 

Edited October 25, 2023 by HB2

[ifishy]

Loneline I have to disagree about crowds I fought more boat traffic and launch traffic than ever this Year.        I see a lot of posts on here that way over simplify the science and ignore some of the real life time lines of ecology size does not necessarily equate to fit from an evolutionary stand point and the lake is different than it was 20 years ago and different than it was in the 80s and 90s it stands to reason what it can support is not the same.  There are more and bigger walleye than there was decades ago smallmouth are bigger but less of them (maybe) and if we went down the list every species has a different biomass and distribution than it did 20 years ago since the clean water act in the 80s the nutrient load in the lake has dropped steadily muscles compounded it gobys somewhat mitigated that but into a lower layer.  Expect change and roll with it you will be less stressed the dec should do a study of selectively breeding the biggest fish dedicate maybe 5% of egg take to it and raise them all at the hatchery. To get any real results would need multiple generations so probably a 10-12 year study we should lobby for that experiment to see if managing it as a trophy fishery is actually an option

[Big fat pike]

I personally know very little about the salmon but does this indicate a far lower alewife population

also dont they stock with a estimated 20% wild reproduction success and didnt a bunch of them starve and die off one year because the success rate was 80% instead of 20%

[HB2]

I  heard at a meeting once that that the natural reproduction rate was as high as 47 %. That's half the fish , a huge number . DEC has no control over that . 

 

The lake surface used to shimmer with dead alwives  after the die off . There are way less in the lake. 

 

It's not our father's LO . It's cleaner . Which doesn't necessarily mean better fishing . But we still have a great fishery I'm grateful for.  

 

I'd like to see them get some new eggs from the West Coast . Raise them at a different hatchery , mark them and see what happens . But I think  DEC said they did not want to do that to introduce more genetics someway . 

 

The salmon run is pretty much over .Pretty much a fly and pin trib trout fishery now .  They got their eggs . Lets wait and see how things go . And let the DEC do their job .