Stream rainbow

[kyle1800]

Hello. I am an avid lake Ontario fisherman. I currently do not have a boat so I mostly fish the salmon River. 

So I caught a stream rainbow in the salmon River. 

And though difficult not impossible to tell from Colombian steelhead, skamanian,  or even lake rainbow (lake rainbow being a non steelhead strain that has lived in the lake. 

This fish was none of those. It's beautiful colors and body form ( i did not count anal rays).  Even a steelhead that is at the end of its spawn and is very dark looks different than one that has lived in the river it's entire life. And it was not in spawn colors or gravid. 

Anyway it was a tad under 19 inches. Small for A steelhead. The biggest wild non steelhead non stocked as an adult rainbow I ever caught. I also love taxidermy. So I was so wanting to keep it. 

But steelhead had to be 21 inches at the time. So I reluctantly put It back. 

 

So my question: The law I read says "15 inch minimum for trout and salmon. Except 21 inches for steelhead". 

So a stream rainbow is not a steelhead. 

For that matter I have also caught one lake rainbow in the river. It also looks different than either strain of steelhead. Not as easy to see the difference as it is to tell a stream rainbow from a steelhead. But that fish was 29 inches so he resides on my living room wall. Among other interesting or "my biggest..." trout and salmon from the river. (My favorite being the cherry red winter run coho. 33 inches). 

So is it illegal to keep a non steelhead rainbow trout in the salmon River or other waters with this regulation? 

I mean if it implies all rainbows why not just say 21 inches for all

rainbow trout? 

And I think well I am a man obsessed with fishing, taxonomy, and taxidermy.  You cannot expect people to be able to make that call on the spot, before the fish perishes. 

But I am extremely confident in my ability to tell the difference. It was still flopping in the net when I knew it was not a steelhead. 

If I ever catch a second one above 15 but under the now 23 inch minimum.  I want to know what exactly the law is on this subject. 

 

 

Not to drone on but I also have been in a "situation" with a game warden when I hooked a jack coho on a salmon egg, legally, in the mouth. He was silver still so I put him on the stringer. The warden, in front of a dozen people,  and from across the river , starts telling me I have to put the fish back. He was in plain clothes. So I just kinda ignored him. I think i said "yeah ok bud". Next thing I know he is on my side of the river id'ing  himself and outright accusing me of keeping an undersized steelhead. I tried to , politely now, tell him he is mistaken. It is not only a salmon but I know it is a jack coho just from looking at him. He then sits for 20 min measuring and counting rays till he had to conceed its species was a coho amd it was over 15 inches. He then asks me to come to his vehicle (so no one saw what he was about to do) and wrote me up for blind snatching. Which is not only untrue, but is a "catch all" fine. If you set the hook and do not have on, and land a fish hooked in the mouth, you can be considered blind snatching. And even with all that possible, I still was not able to be considered blind snatching in my opinion. I set the hook once, hooked a fish. Landed it. And it was hooked in its mouth. 

He was in a drift boat and didn't even look in my direction until the fish jumped 3 feet out of the water trying to throw the hook. So if anyone could say they were not blind snatching, it was me. 

 

So I am  sorry for the longest question in history. And the back stories. But I feel like knowing all that helps one understand why I have to know the answer to this technical question. 

 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

2 hours ago, kyle1800 said:

Hello. I am an avid lake Ontario fisherman. I currently do not have a boat so I mostly fish the salmon River. 

So I caught a stream rainbow in the salmon River. 

And though difficult not impossible to tell from Colombian steelhead, skamanian,  or even lake rainbow (lake rainbow being a non steelhead strain that has lived in the lake. 

This fish was none of those. It's beautiful colors and body form ( i did not count anal rays).  Even a steelhead that is at the end of its spawn and is very dark looks different than one that has lived in the river it's entire life. And it was not in spawn colors or gravid. 

Anyway it was a tad under 19 inches. Small for A steelhead. The biggest wild non steelhead non stocked as an adult rainbow I ever caught. I also love taxidermy. So I was so wanting to keep it. 

But steelhead had to be 21 inches at the time. So I reluctantly put It back. 

 

So my question: The law I read says "15 inch minimum for trout and salmon. Except 21 inches for steelhead". 

So a stream rainbow is not a steelhead. 

For that matter I have also caught one lake rainbow in the river. It also looks different than either strain of steelhead. Not as easy to see the difference as it is to tell a stream rainbow from a steelhead. But that fish was 29 inches so he resides on my living room wall. Among other interesting or "my biggest..." trout and salmon from the river. (My favorite being the cherry red winter run coho. 33 inches). 

So is it illegal to keep a non steelhead rainbow trout in the salmon River or other waters with this regulation? 

I mean if it implies all rainbows why not just say 21 inches for all

rainbow trout? 

And I think well I am a man obsessed with fishing, taxonomy, and taxidermy.  You cannot expect people to be able to make that call on the spot, before the fish perishes. 

But I am extremely confident in my ability to tell the difference. It was still flopping in the net when I knew it was not a steelhead. 

If I ever catch a second one above 15 but under the now 23 inch minimum.  I want to know what exactly the law is on this subject. 

 

 

Not to drone on but I also have been in a "situation" with a game warden when I hooked a jack coho on a salmon egg, legally, in the mouth. He was silver still so I put him on the stringer. The warden, in front of a dozen people,  and from across the river , starts telling me I have to put the fish back. He was in plain clothes. So I just kinda ignored him. I think i said "yeah ok bud". Next thing I know he is on my side of the river id'ing  himself and outright accusing me of keeping an undersized steelhead. I tried to , politely now, tell him he is mistaken. It is not only a salmon but I know it is a jack coho just from looking at him. He then sits for 20 min measuring and counting rays till he had to conceed its species was a coho amd it was over 15 inches. He then asks me to come to his vehicle (so no one saw what he was about to do) and wrote me up for blind snatching. Which is not only untrue, but is a "catch all" fine. If you set the hook and do not have on, and land a fish hooked in the mouth, you can be considered blind snatching. And even with all that possible, I still was not able to be considered blind snatching in my opinion. I set the hook once, hooked a fish. Landed it. And it was hooked in its mouth. 

He was in a drift boat and didn't even look in my direction until the fish jumped 3 feet out of the water trying to throw the hook. So if anyone could say they were not blind snatching, it was me. 

 

So I am  sorry for the longest question in history. And the back stories. But I feel like knowing all that helps one understand why I have to know the answer to this technical question. 

 

 

 

The DEC considers all strains of rainbows / steelhead in Lake Ontario as steelhead.  

[Kingme2Go]

minimum size for rainbow trout is 25 inches in most lake Ontario tributaries now. 

https://www.dec.ny.gov/things-to-do/freshwater-fishing/regulations/great-lakes-tributaries

[kyle1800]

Gambler. Thanks for the information. Sorry I took so long to respond.

Can you give me where I can find this information? If it's DEC then it's written somewhere right? Not that I doubt you. I just would like to read this information and any other that is about such matters. 

 

Kingme. No kidding?  I had two kids (2 and 3yo). So I haven't gotten up much at all. I went in 2023 though one time. The fishing was rough. I only hooked two and landed one. It was not legal. Matter of fact it was I think 19 inches .

But did they change this for 2024? Or was it that in 2023? I can understand why. The numbers looked way down. Didn't even see another person hook one the entire day. 

[GAMBLER]

11 minutes ago, kyle1800 said:

Gambler. Thanks for the information. Sorry I took so long to respond.

Can you give me where I can find this information? If it's DEC then it's written somewhere right? Not that I doubt you. I just would like to read this information and any other that is about such matters. 

 

Kingme. No kidding?  I had two kids (2 and 3yo). So I haven't gotten up much at all. I went in 2023 though one time. The fishing was rough. I only hooked two and landed one. It was not legal. Matter of fact it was I think 19 inches .

But did they change this for 2024? Or was it that in 2023? I can understand why. The numbers looked way down. Didn't even see another person hook one the entire day. 

New York Angler Achievement Awards Program - NYDEC

 

Look at the state records.  There is just rainbow and no steelhead.  It is all lumped into one species.  

[kyle1800]

Well if it were the other way around I would have no disagreement. Rainbow trout are the same species as steelhead. I get that. Sea-run rainbows. That's all they are. But to put it simply. Every steelhead is a rainbow. Not every rainbow is a steelhead. There in lies my issue with it. If they mean the species as a whole. Then they should just say rainbow trout. And steelhead would be covered under it, without question.  But they don't. They say "steelhead". "Trout and salmon" 15inches.  And then steelhead as an exception or 25 inches now. So to me a stream rainbow is not a steelhead. It's just not. It would not live in the river it's whole life. It would do what any sea run salmoniod or char does. Go to the open water. Mature. Come back inthe river to spawn.  So if they (whoever decides this) are the ones being technical enough to use the term steelhead. So if your getting that technical in a technical regulation. Then to me a stream rainbow is a "trout and salmon"  before its a "steelhead". And I bet my bottom dollar the stream rainbow would have a different number of anal rays than a steelhead. They tell the Colombian steelhead from the Skamanian using anal rays (and if stocked they cut the adapose on the Skamanian) And they are both steelhead. So I don't see why the same technique could be used for a stream rainbow vs a steelhead.  

But i digress. I just need to talk to a fish and game person when I go up. And at least hear why they use the term steelhead if they mean the much broader rainbow trout designation.  

[fisherman21]

Perhaps what you caught was a small steelhead and not a stream rainbow. Which would negate this whole situation. Do you have a picture of it? We do have wild/native rainbows in some rivers/streams throughout the state. They are much smaller and do not go out to the lake. You also have, or at least did have three strains of rainbows in the lake at one point. You had domestic rainbows who would run the tribs in the fall and spawn in the fall. These are not stocked anymore from what I know. Then you have your “steelhead” who will trickle into the system fall through spring and spawn in the spring. Then you have skamanias who are a summer run “steelhead”. I would lean more towards you catching a small lake run fish last year, but it’s not impossible that it was a resident/native rainbow. Would love to see a picture 

[GAMBLER]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:46 AM, kyle1800 said:

Well if it were the other way around I would have no disagreement. Rainbow trout are the same species as steelhead. I get that. Sea-run rainbows. That's all they are. But to put it simply. Every steelhead is a rainbow. Not every rainbow is a steelhead. There in lies my issue with it. If they mean the species as a whole. Then they should just say rainbow trout. And steelhead would be covered under it, without question.  But they don't. They say "steelhead". "Trout and salmon" 15inches.  And then steelhead as an exception or 25 inches now. So to me a stream rainbow is not a steelhead. It's just not. It would not live in the river it's whole life. It would do what any sea run salmoniod or char does. Go to the open water. Mature. Come back inthe river to spawn.  So if they (whoever decides this) are the ones being technical enough to use the term steelhead. So if your getting that technical in a technical regulation. Then to me a stream rainbow is a "trout and salmon"  before its a "steelhead". And I bet my bottom dollar the stream rainbow would have a different number of anal rays than a steelhead. They tell the Colombian steelhead from the Skamanian using anal rays (and if stocked they cut the adapose on the Skamanian) And they are both steelhead. So I don't see why the same technique could be used for a stream rainbow vs a steelhead.  

But i digress. I just need to talk to a fish and game person when I go up. And at least hear why they use the term steelhead if they mean the much broader rainbow trout designation.  

If we call them all steelhead or all rainbows, it simplifies regulations and creel limits.  In the end we have a world class fishery so does it matter?

Edited January 14 by GAMBLER

[Kingme2Go]

Section 1 of this report shows DEC stocking levels of domestic rainbow trout and steelhead in Lake Ontario and explains strain differences. 

 

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/2021ontarioreport.pdf

 

Skamania Steelhead were last stocked in 2021, then discontinued. 

Domestic Rainbow were last stocked in 2019, then discontinued in Lake Ontario. 

 

Gambler is right- a rainbow is a rainbow for regulation purposes and harvest of all are limited to 25 inches in Lake Ontario streams downstream of designated locations that are spelled out in the 2023 regulations book. 

 

 

[kyle1800]

Yeah I appreciate the responses. But I have caught a lot of these fish. I take taxonomy pretty seriously. And I understand the strain differences. I had to look it up. But it says skamanian stopped being stocked 2021. So any adult would just be getting to spawn size. But yes they always were rare. I think I only landed one in all the steelhead i caught. They have a more snakelike appearance. Colombians have a more footballish form wheb they get large. Skamanian are just long and the with varies little. And they do jot get as dark lime Colombians when they been in the river a while. They stay lighter in color. They clip the fins of some stocked skamanians  but not all of them. Too much work i think. Also, 30% I think,  of steelhead are native born. And at least some population would last for at least a decade. And maybe once only the best adapted fish would make up the entire population and cement themselves as a sustainable native population.  Without all the dumb ones to compete with in the lake. Speculation. But that's the goal of any stocking project . 

And the stream rainbow was one time. Out of many. It was obviously not a steelhead. Yes I absolutely know the difference between them. Blue hue along the lateral line is the dead give away. Also spotting is more prevalent. Andbthe spots are bigger. I have never seen a steelhead with the blue hue on the lateral line like a steam rainbow. I even have a stream behind my house that used to be only brook trout. But downstream they put rainbows. The fish inevitably spawned and now the upper reaches are devoid of brook trout and is now exclusivly small wild born rainbows. When one grows up in the river it adopts a certain pattern and color. Now if you took those small ones and threw them in a lake. They would lose that coloration. They would be basically what i call lake rainbows. Which all go into the catagory of Domestic Rainbow.

Steelhead are the same species as domestic rainbows, yes.

But so are all humans the same species.  But you can absolutely tell the difference between someone from china wouldnt you? And if you toss a white person into the population they would still be cacasian right? So if you would say next is well maybe he is a steelhead that never went down to the lake. No. That's like a salmon doing it. Steelhead have been Anadromous for ten of thousands of years at minimum. Being anadromous is not a choice. It's hardwired into their DNA. 

But all irrelevant really. All I Mean to know is:

 

If it covers all rainbow strains in the rule.  Why do they use the specific term STEELHEAD?

Again all steelhead are rainbows. All rainbows are not steelhead. And to me.  That's not up for debate. Steelhead have specific genetic makeup that differs from domestic rainbows. Yes they are the same species. Yet they have a third latin name in taxonomy. Genus, species, and if needed Subspecies. Are they different Subspecies. Yes.  So if there is a difference.  And there is. Why not just say rainbows. Not specifically saying steelhead in the regulations? 

 

I'm not trying to be difficult or an ass**le. Which yes I have been called one from time to time I admit. 

But i do apologize if i come off as such.  I like this site. I want to buy a boat off it. So yeah I said enough. I made my case. Stated my question. Not really interested unless you can explain the reason for this wording and if they recognize a difference.

Hey maybe the people who wrote it think all rainbows are steelhead. And see no difference and the names are interchangeable to them.

No one but me seems to have had issue with it. And at least thats an actual answer. Despite it being incorrect on a technical level. 

 

I digress. Definitely. 

 

That reminds me. If anyone has a salmon boat that is ready to use. Like downriggers and  gear included. I have been in the market for one. I had to call off the search when I saw I didn't have enough to get one that is not too much of a project for me. Since I do not know enough to fix things.  And I won't have thousands more to dump into it. But I have like 20k with my tax money coming this month. If anyone has one. 

 

Thank you 

[spoonfed-1]

Years ago I asked a fisheries biologist that worked for the DEC. I was told biologically they are the same fish. Difference was the strain they stocked in the lake relative to the strain they stocked in tributaries and inland ponds and streams. Just what I was told when I took this nice steely out of the lake and took this nice domestic rainbow a short time later also out of the lake. I was told that domestic rainbow was NOT stocked in the lake. True definition of a steelhead is an ocean run rainbow that spends the year in salt water and returns to fresh water rivers to spawn.

 

Edited January 16 by spoonfed-1

[Lucky13]

One of the Regional Fisheries Managers told me that there is nothing consistent in pigmentation of fish, and individuals of the same strain can appear very different.  DEC may have been acknowledging that anglers in Lake Ontario called the rainbow trout they were catching "steelhead" so DEC followed that erroneous convention. West Coast anglers get their hackles up about this one because our chromers don't see any salt, except the runoff from the roads.  Most recently, DEC has been stocking three strains.  I don't know what you are talking about with your "Colombians", DEC stocks a Washington strain that originated in Chambers Creek, which is a tributary to Puget Sound, quite a distance from the Washington Oregon Border, the Columbia River.  As Michigan stocked these first, DEC may have obtained eggs from Michigan.  They did stock Skamanias until the disease protocols recently implemented made it impossible for them to be overwintered at the Altmar facility.  Skamania's did originate from a Columbia River tributary, the Washougal River. I'm not clear on why Randolph Strain (what everyone called domestic rainbows) were discontinued.  At one time, so I was told in my youth, they also raised McCloud strain rainbows descended from the originals brought by Seth Green to Caledonia.  While they are rare in Spring Creek, these persist in the water source for the Caledonia hatchery, and I would venture that these were the fish that were originally planted in the Finger Lakes.  But all are Rainbow trout.   As to a fish in the Salmon River, aside from the stocking sources you mention, upstream of the Steelhead water are two reservoirs, both of which are inhabited by Rainbow trout, and above the Redfield Reservoir, there is a tributary to the East Branch of the Salmon River named Prince Brook, that despite being located in prime wild brook trout country, is chock full of naturalized Rainbow trout.  While going over the two dams or through two sets of generators, and over Salmon River falls seems a stretch, it is possible. Also upstream of the Salmon River is the remainder of the Great Lakes, so any strain of Rainbow trout stocked by any of the contiguous states could in theory end up in Lake Ontario. While a trout trip down the Welland Canal, or over Niagara Falls seems unlikely, when PA was stocking some of the Erie tribs with the West Virginia developed Palomino strain rainbows, bright golden in color, they would occasionally show up in 18 mile, Oak Orchard, and even Russell Station when the power plant was still there.

 

The bottom line is that all rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) are covered by the regulation.  Otherwise, the Encon officers are dealing with people like the guy I encountered at Thornell Road in Pittsford not long after the annual steelhead stocking of Irondequoit Creek, who was loading up a bread bag with the smolts, and claimed they were brook trout, as steelhead were big and ran the stream in the winter, and the fish he was harvesting in number were small and it was May.