What's your opinion of the current state of our fishery?

[Crestliner]

All fish releasd to to make babbies

[Gill-T]

I was wondering if anyone can shed any light (confirm or deny) a rumor going around that some of the East end captains are looking to meet with the DEC to discuss the shrinking size of King salmon with consideration for a moratorium on stocking for two years?

[Yankee Troller]

48 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

I was wondering if anyone can shed any light (confirm or deny) a rumor going around that some of the East end captains are looking to meet with the DEC to discuss the shrinking size of King salmon with consideration for a moratorium on stocking for two years?

 

I'd like a moratorium on Salmon fishing in the Salmon River, but I get laughed at. 

[arnold]

In my humble opinion a moratorium is not the answer.  The fish on both sides of the lake are the smallest in the 30 years Ive been fishing and its a wonder this hasnt happened years ago.

Take an article , photocopy it and then take a copy of that etc etc. and the 100th copy will be un readable . This is the problem with the salmon whether pens or natural - they are all copies of copies  of copies and the genetics are failing badly. Its not that they are not in good shape - our side has lots of bait and the fish have big bellies, but theres no muscle or whatever it is to put weight on for them to become 30/35lb fish'

We need new strains - preferably west coast fish but trust me you could live to be a hundred and our ministry would have to have a thousand biologists reports ( who have no idea how to fish) and at least 2 junkets for the preferred few ministry guys and families to "review the situation" on the west coast

I know Im cynical but Ive seen it all before and nothing will happen. Talk talk talk that will happen but real progress - nope

[GAMBLER]

22 hours ago, Gill-T said:

I was wondering if anyone can shed any light (confirm or deny) a rumor going around that some of the East end captains are looking to meet with the DEC to discuss the shrinking size of King salmon with consideration for a moratorium on stocking for two years?

If this is true, it is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.  Two years of no stocking will cause big issues.  If you have fewer spawners in the fertile tribs like the Salmon River, fewer fish will be produced.  Think of how many kings get roped out of the tribs and put in coolers on the lake.  Will they get enough fish back to the hatchery to collect eggs?  We have seen that before.  IF there are less predators in the lake, alewife populations will explode.  

20 hours ago, arnold said:

In my humble opinion a moratorium is not the answer.  The fish on both sides of the lake are the smallest in the 30 years Ive been fishing and its a wonder this hasnt happened years ago.

Take an article , photocopy it and then take a copy of that etc etc. and the 100th copy will be un readable . This is the problem with the salmon whether pens or natural - they are all copies of copies  of copies and the genetics are failing badly. Its not that they are not in good shape - our side has lots of bait and the fish have big bellies, but theres no muscle or whatever it is to put weight on for them to become 30/35lb fish'

We need new strains - preferably west coast fish but trust me you could live to be a hundred and our ministry would have to have a thousand biologists reports ( who have no idea how to fish) and at least 2 junkets for the preferred few ministry guys and families to "review the situation" on the west coast

I know Im cynical but Ive seen it all before and nothing will happen. Talk talk talk that will happen but real progress - nope

The DEC will not reintroduce new genetics because they do not want to mess up the current Lake Ontario strains (although it seems they have already messed it up by selecting younger year classes of kings to strip milt and eggs from).  These fish have adapted to Great Lakes life and are naturally reproducing.  There are Great Lakes strains that are still big fish.  The Wisconsin side of Lake Michigan seems to be pumping out big kings.  

[Reel Chaos]

I can tell you one thing I don’t think it is a food issue, the Salmon I caught was 35 5/8 inches and weighed 27lb 12oz on the LOC scale.  I googled and although prob not exactly accurate it says a fish at that weight should be around 41”.  However, the fish had a roughly 25” girth and looked like a football so it was definitely eating very well

[dreamsteelie]

A Happy Report

 

I am not sure we can have it all.  BIG fish and lots.... ? I know I would prefer a cooler of 10-20# kings VS 6 bigs all day.  I know my clients would also.  Hell, I may fall asleep in-between changing lures if fishing was slow but fish were big.

This season may be arguably the best in years (ever?) in terms of fish being caught, happy anglers (most) and it seemed at times the entire S and N shores were HOT.  There are some big adults around also.  

 

Lake Erie is going through a similar thing.  LOTS and LOTS of fish, many happy anglers and a great fishery.  Its rare to catch a "legitimate" 7# walleye right now.  Do I care? not really, except in a tournament.  Or I  would care if I was dinking out and my peers were constantly catching hog eyes.. Not the case. Bigs are not the preferred eater anyways. (Less contamination also) I can speak for many rec and charter anglers. Its nice to catch a nice limit of fish and be back in at a reasonable time-avoiding sun, heat, sometimes bugs and waves (typically waves grow as the day progresses here).  Whether that's Lake O or Erie.

 

I fish both Lakes hard and sometimes the old saying is best left alone and it is: "take what the lake gives us".

 

I know we can bring up the 2 or 3 years when Kings were 40# but things change, that was a LONG time ago.  Cohos, when first introduced to Lake Erie in the late 70's and early 80's were PIGS..  Eventually, the stocking process, genetics and maybe less bait (always an argument) affected the size?  By the end of the stocking program, the avg fish was 6-8#.  Not 10-15#.  Lake Michigan was similar.

 

Lake Erie steel in PA are flat out BIG this year.  There has been years when they were clones-mostly 4-6# fish. This year has been an exception. There has been more 10# plus steel boated so far than I can ever recall and I have been fishing for them for  a longgg time.  Was it the mild winter again? Large presence of Alewives this year? IDK but lets not change it in PA.. LOL

 

Back to Lake O: Whatever happened recently to provide the great brown, steelhead and king fishery this year-I would take every year.  Give Credit to the DEC or mild winter/weather conditions helped? My customers never said 1 word about catching small fish this year. Oh, I did not even mention those occasional overlooked coho which make great box fillers, r fun to catch and add to the diversity in Lake O.  Then we have lakers to play with when desired.  (Just ask Screamer Dave-they came in handy 2X this year:))

 

Been a great year so far aboard the V.Q. and yes, we do like Big fish also, just not sure we can ask or have both?

 

Good topic folks.

 

Captain Pete

V.Q.

 

 

[GAMBLER]

13 hours ago, dreamsteelie said:

A Happy Report

 

I am not sure we can have it all.  BIG fish and lots.... ? I know I would prefer a cooler of 10-20# kings VS 6 bigs all day.  I know my clients would also.  Hell, I may fall asleep in-between changing lures if fishing was slow but fish were big.

This season may be arguably the best in years (ever?) in terms of fish being caught, happy anglers (most) and it seemed at times the entire S and N shores were HOT.  There are some big adults around also.  

 

Lake Erie is going through a similar thing.  LOTS and LOTS of fish, many happy anglers and a great fishery.  Its rare to catch a "legitimate" 7# walleye right now.  Do I care? not really, except in a tournament.  Or I  would care if I was dinking out and my peers were constantly catching hog eyes.. Not the case. Bigs are not the preferred eater anyways. (Less contamination also) I can speak for many rec and charter anglers. Its nice to catch a nice limit of fish and be back in at a reasonable time-avoiding sun, heat, sometimes bugs and waves (typically waves grow as the day progresses here).  Whether that's Lake O or Erie.

 

I fish both Lakes hard and sometimes the old saying is best left alone and it is: "take what the lake gives us".

 

I know we can bring up the 2 or 3 years when Kings were 40# but things change, that was a LONG time ago.  Cohos, when first introduced to Lake Erie in the late 70's and early 80's were PIGS..  Eventually, the stocking process, genetics and maybe less bait (always an argument) affected the size?  By the end of the stocking program, the avg fish was 6-8#.  Not 10-15#.  Lake Michigan was similar.

 

Lake Erie steel in PA are flat out BIG this year.  There has been years when they were clones-mostly 4-6# fish. This year has been an exception. There has been more 10# plus steel boated so far than I can ever recall and I have been fishing for them for  a longgg time.  Was it the mild winter again? Large presence of Alewives this year? IDK but lets not change it in PA.. LOL

 

Back to Lake O: Whatever happened recently to provide the great brown, steelhead and king fishery this year-I would take every year.  Give Credit to the DEC or mild winter/weather conditions helped? My customers never said 1 word about catching small fish this year. Oh, I did not even mention those occasional overlooked coho which make great box fillers, r fun to catch and add to the diversity in Lake O.  Then we have lakers to play with when desired.  (Just ask Screamer Dave-they came in handy 2X this year:))

 

Been a great year so far aboard the V.Q. and yes, we do like Big fish also, just not sure we can ask or have both?

 

Good topic folks.

 

Captain Pete

V.Q.

 

 

You can thank the great brown and steelhead fishery on great king fishing.  Browns have been left alone.  A lot of kings have been in the inside waters all season.  Boats haven’t needed to venture offshore to the steelhead rich waters.  If you want them, they are there but no one is burning the fuel with the current prices when you don’t have to!

[BRsnow]

If I wanted quantity I would perch fish.  Charters can typically provide numbers regardless if big kings aren’t the goal. 1 30lb king is way better than a bunch of 10-20lb. Part is the fight, the other is the memories. 
 

I do think you can have both, time will tell.

[arnold]

Couldnt agree more. Charters can always /usually keep there customers happy by going deep for bows/cohos/browns but us rec anglers would like to see 30lb plus. Not that Im grateful but Ive caught enough teens/low twenties to last a lifetime ,  and one or two 30+ fish far outweigh a dozen teens , especially when they spool you and it takes 20/30 minutes to get to the boat and then it throws the hook. Thats what memories are made of .!!

[BRsnow]

Wouldn’t it be nice to catch a fish heavier than the lb test line you use?

[HB2]

This year the amount of fish was about as good as it has ever been. That's not normal . 

 

Cut the catch rate by 1/2 or 2/3 to normal  and see how happy most would be . 

 

Nothing wrong with 20 # kings . 

 

Absolutely great fishery this year . 

 

Always some that whine . Appreciate what you have.  

 

 

Three years of constant high amounts of bait and let's see . 

[BRsnow]

1 hour ago, HB2 said:

This year the amount of fish was about as good as it has ever been. That's not normal . 

 

Cut the catch rate by 1/2 or 2/3 to normal  and see how happy most would be . 

 

Nothing wrong with 20 # kings . 

 

Absolutely great fishery this year . 

 

Always some that whine . Appreciate what you have.  

 

 

Three years of constant high amounts of bait and let's see . 

They are called kings for a reason. If you are catching smaller fish, steelhead are more fun and coho taste better.

[dreamsteelie]

 

These are the only u ones we know about and that actually get weighed/entered-how many do not?

 

GOSD: July 27-Aug 2

Great Grand Prize Leader: 31.14#

1st Place: Nathan Mifsud – Wellers Bay – 27.64 lbs.
2nd Place: Jonas Usackas – Whitby – 27.48 lbs.
3rd Place: David McFaul – Rays Cottages – 27.22 lbs.
4th Place: Jessica Ritchie – Newcastle – 27.14 lbs.
5th Place: Andrew Tolcher – Peters Tackle – Fishin Clinician – 25.86 lbs.
6th Place: Tim Mandzak – Whitby – 25.78 lbs.
7th Place: Jack Robinson – Bluffers – 25.40 lbs.
8th Place: Justin Tadgell – Bluffers – 25.32 lbs.
9th Place: Mitch Hoyle – Newcastle – 25.27 lbs.
10th Place: Isaac Seabrook – Bluffers – 25.12 lbs.
11th Place: Adam Paryz – Lakefront Promenade – 25.00 lbs.
12th Place: Thomas O’Neill – Wellers Bay – 24.92 lbs.
13th Place: Vincent Lafrance – Cobourg – Gabriel Vachon – 24.88 lbs.
14th Place: Chris Attard – Newcastle – 24.72 lbs.
15th Place: Joel Tiede – Whitby – 24.52 lbs.
16th Place: Casey Moss – Lakefront Promenade – 24.48 lbs.
17th Place: Aaron Brautigam – Lakefront Promenade – 24.30 lbs.
18th Place: Doug Smart – Peters Tackle – 24.30 lbs.
19th Place: Fisher Mastromartino – Bronte – 24.16 lbs.
20th Place: Luke DePietro – Peters Tackle – Setting the Hook – 24.10 lbs.
21st Place: Sid Jensen – Bronte – 24.04 lbs.
22nd Place: Fran Stevenson – Whitby – 24.04 lbs.
23rd Place: Ryan Hymes – Lakefront Promenade – 23.98 lbs.
24th Place: Aaron Hyde – Lakefront Promenade – 23.90 lbs.
25th Place: Garneth Fry – Newcastle – 23.86 lbs.

Edited August 10 by dreamsteelie

[dreamsteelie]

 

The Chinook Salmon was introduced into the Lake Michigan in 1967. Sometimes called "King Salmon", these fish were not known to reproduce successfully. In 2007, the DNR of Lake Michigan's bordering states Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, began studying natural recruitment of the King Salmon. It is now found that nearly 54 percent of the annual king salmon catch is naturally reproduced. Great Lakes populations of Chinook are still supplemented by annual stocking programs, but the numbers stocked have been reduced considerably to maintain a thriving predator to prey population.

Chinook Salmon spawn in streams over beds of large gravel, near riffles. Within two weeks after spawning, adult chinook die. Chinook compete with other salmon and trout for scarce spawning grounds. The following spring the eggs hatch, and the young usually remain in the river for one year before they migrate down to the lake. Once in the lake, males tend to remain for 1-2 years and females for 3-4 years. The King Salmon average a weight of 15 to 25 pounds and 38 inches in length.

Young chinook in rivers eat insects, insect larvae and crustaceans; adults in the lakes eat fish almost exclusively. In the Great Lakes, smelt and alewives make up their main diet. Predators include rainbow trout, coho salmon smolts and fish-eating birds. The young also compete with trout and other salmon for food. Anglers prize chinook partly because of their large size and the challenge they present for fishing, and partly because they make a delicious meal. While other pacific salmon species have red flesh, chinook meat is often light pink.

Chinook Salmon

Chinook, or “King,” Salmon were first introduced into the Great Lakes water systems during the 1800’s following the near extinction of the Atlantic Salmon population in Lake Ontario. For centuries, legendary runs of Atlantic Salmon into the Tributaries of Lake Ontario supported growth of native populations in the New York and Canada regions, which spilled over to European settlement during the 1700 and 1800s. Despite plantings of 5 million fry and fingerlings from Lake Ontario stocks in 1866-84, the native Atlantic salmon in Lake Ontario became extinct in the late 1800’s primarily because tributaries in which they spawned were blocked by mill dams. For nearly a century, all attempted stocking efforts throughout the Great Lakes failed. It wasn’t until a major stocking movement from 1966-1970 in Lake Michigan of 13 million chinook salmon that a footprint began to form. From 1970 until present day, a small population of 12-15% of fish are through natural reproduction, but the majority of salmon in the Great Lakes are a direct result of State stocking efforts and wildlife management. Today, average King Salmon weight 18-25 pounds, with fish pushing over 30 pounds entering the rivers every year.

 

Off topic a bit but there was some bait/forage discussions here.

Here is an interesting article done in MI with regard to lake trout and chinook food (bait) consumption done my Michigan State U.  I have worked and with these folks at MSU (quantitative fish division) for several years.  Usually, I just listen and digest their information-above my pay grade level of intelligence...(I am not sure if NY DEC has done a similar study?)

 

Excerpt:

So, on an annual basis a Chinook salmon eats more than a lake trout of the same size. We know that lake trout live longer than Chinook salmon, though. How much does an average lake trout eat over its entire lifetime as opposed to an average Chinook salmon? C.M.: The answer to this question partly depends on the definition of an entire lifetime for a lake trout. Based on the bioenergetics modeling by Don Stewart and others, an average lake trout consumes 143.3 lbs. of food between the time of stocking as a yearling into Lake Michigan and age 12. A Chinook salmon consumes 147.7 lbs. of food between the time of stocking as an age-0 fingerling into Lake Michigan and age 3.5, when a Chinook salmon is ready to spawn. J.J.: Chuck did a nice job of summarizing lifetime consumption of the two species above. When asking a question like this, it is important to consider why it is being asked. Total lifetime consumption of prey does not equate to information valuable in determining sustainability of the system. New year-classes of fish are always being produced and individual species have different life-spans and life-histories. Several generations of alewife and Chinook salmon will have cycled during the life-span of a lake trout. For example, during the lifespan of a lake trout age 12 which consumed 143.3 lbs. of prey there will have been four generations of Chinook salmon each consuming 147.7 lbs. of prey (590.8 total lbs.). Because of fluctuations in births and deaths and the lack of life-span synchrony among species, we typically summarize population levels of predators and prey on an annual basis in order to monitor for changes over.

 

Now we know how much individual trout and salmon eat, but how many baitfish are eaten annually by all predators in Lake Michigan? How did estimated lake trout consumption compare to estimated Chinook salmon consumption on a lakewide basis in 2016? J.J.: In 2016, lake trout consumed 13.7 kt of prey and Chinook salmon consumed 38.4 kt. Even though numbers of Chinook salmon in 2016 were at all time low levels lake-wide, they consumed nearly 3 times as much forage as lake trout. In 2016, the biomass of Chinook salmon in Lake Michigan was estimated to be 5.0 kt and lake trout 5.9 kt. Just four years’ prior, in 2013, Chinook salmon biomass was substantially higher at 15.7 kt and lake trout were 7.0 kt.

https://www.canr.msu.edu/uploads/files/Lake_Trout_Bioenergetics_PDF.pdf

[arnold]

These last couple of posts are beyond my brain power but I just cant get my head around how a salmon  thats 4 years old eats more baitfish than a laker that lives to 12 . The offspring of both starts eating at age 1 or 2 . The math dosent add up but Im just a simple fisherman 

[Kingme2Go]

That post from dreamsteelie is mainly good except that King salmon  in lake Ontario only remain in the streams for a few months after hatch, not one year.   

 

 

[BRsnow]

Lake Oahe in SD is starting to produce 20lb kings currently after a couple down years, so I personally think much of this is cyclical. 

[Gator]

If it was tuna (east coast) we were talking about, the guys would laugh at your 30 lb teeny, weeny fish. If it was flyfishing Wyoming, those 20 lb kings would be the trophy of a lifetime. There's no inherent value in 30 lb kings. It's all what you make of the experience and the tools that you use to get it done. 

 

I'm glad to see great fishing. Even with the downshift in size, there's still no harder fishing fish in the lake. I also think that the exceptional fishing has led to better recruitment...of fishermen. And kids. I've never seen so many pictures of happy fishermen than this year.

[Gill-T]

I guess we know where all the three-year olds came from.  
 

 

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

1 hour ago, Gill-T said:

I guess we know where all the three-year olds came from.  
 

 

The naturalization of Pacific Salmon in the Great Lakes is one of the greatest fishery stories of all time. After being screwed up by the construction of the seaway and rampant gill netting it is awesome to see protected sites like this. We need more ladders, dam removal and protected spawning water.  

[Gill-T]

 

[HB2]

This is great news . 

 

At least we know where they are coming from 

 

My guess the reason the fishing was so good was a good natural reproduction year and the increase in  stocking 3 years ago . 

 

If this keeps up in those streams we should have reasonably good fishing in coming years . 

 

 

[Gill-T]

Not sure this will produce for us in three years. Water temps are really warm this year. I think you need water in the 50’s to have eggs eye-up once fertilized but with evolution, who knows. Jurassic Park. 

[Gill-T]

https://kawarthanow.com/2024/08/30/ontario-government-approves-new-fishing-rules-to-protect-salmon-on-the-ganaraska-river-in-port-hope/