What's your opinion of the current state of our fishery?

[Gill-T]

Great management tool to have a bean counter 

 

https://www.riverwatcherdaily.is/Migration

[LongLine]

That's a pretty neat site:

I searched on the Ganaraska for the largest fish between 1 Oct and 13 Oct 2024.  This what came up Oct 7th:

Estimated length 126cm.  That's 49 1/2 inches!  If its girth was 25", then that was a 40 pounder.

 

 

 

 

[LongLine]

jm1984 - very plausible. 

Couple questions:  How long are the OMNR pen reared fish kept in the pens?  Does OMNR document stocking and pen reared data online? (where?)

 

Thanx

[Jm1984]

The goal is six weeks in the pens, this year, we had to release a bit early due to water temperature.  I can ask one of the guys that I help out at the hatchery with I think he would know where to find it if it is accessible.

[LongLine]

There appears to be a definite weight difference between Pen reared US vs Canadian Chinooks.  Looking at the historical weights shown in the 2022 LO Annual report for 2010-2016:

Very plausible stream conditions are different which would cause this. I.E. Flow, oxygen content, nutrients, temperature regime.  There appears to be a difference in stream productivity (conduciveness to growth in pens) on the US side.  Again, browsing the 2022 annual report:

Then, doing some rough calculations shows fish in Oswego pens grew more, averaged daily, than fish at Oak Orchard, even though they were in pens longer at the Oak.  (Converting dates to Julian dates) Typical time in pens at Black, Oswego, Genny and 18 mile was 3 weeks.  Oak time was  41/2 weeks. Overall weight gain was comparable at the Niagara; however, they were in the pens for 5 weeks.

 

 

As stated earlier, from the report on straying where Pen reared fish tend to return to their original pen areas, (2017 annual report) might this explain why bigger fish are caught in the fall towards Oswego/Mexico?  I.E. bigger when young, the bigger as adults? The OMNR weights and catch reports seem to add to that theory?

 

Water temperature has to play an important part of fish survival.  AS JM1984 stated "had to release a bit early due to temperature..."  Don't know the temperature regimes of other places but historical USGS monitoring at Ford Street (Genny) shows variation however typically on 1 April it's low 40's then beginning week of May it starts to climb fairly rapidly thru the 50's& low 60's.  Release temps aren't shown in the annual report.

 

Another interesting item from table 2 above is the size of the SR fish released at the Lighthouse. If we say they were initially the same weight as the average weight of the pen reared ones (3.3g) and then start on the average Julian date as the fish were put it pens (day 103), why did they only weigh 7g when released?  This was 58 days.  It's kind of hard for me to accept that the SR & water fed to the hatchery is not as productive as pen sites.

 

 

[Gill-T]

I would point to possible variability in feeding times. Auto feeder vs volunteers. Good bug life vs none in the trib. 

[HB2]

From what i hear from the guys that use to pen rear the kings at Sandy creek , the Sandy fish were the biggest / healthiest of any in the South shore . Don't know how true this is or if you here is any scientific data on this but that's what I hear . 

 

So if that's the case , maybe all South shore kings should be reared at Sandy . That is if in fact you want the biggest king possible .

 

And the downward  trend in size directly coincides with the halt of pen rearing at Sandy . 

 

Makes sense doesn't it ? 

[Silver Fox]

1 hour ago, HB2 said:

From what i hear from the guys that use to pen rear the kings at Sandy creek , the Sandy fish were the biggest / healthiest of any in the South shore . Don't know how true this is or if you here is any scientific data on this but that's what I hear . 

 

So if that's the case , maybe all South shore kings should be reared at Sandy . That is if in fact you want the biggest king possible .

 

And the downward  trend in size directly coincides with the halt of pen rearing at Sandy . 

 

Makes sense doesn't it ? 

It was one of the most successful sites on the lake. For the fish and for the number of volunteers we had. Then it was yanked……..

[LongLine]

Per the 2017 L.O. annual report: On 4/21/17 64,000 Chinooks were put in pens on Sandy Cr at 113/Lb (4g) at 50F temperature. They were released on 4/27/17 at 4g weight. (6 days)  

 

Per the 2022 L.O. report: On 4/13/22, 18,800 Atlantic Ylg and on 4/15/22, 17,000 Rainbows Ylg were direct stocked at Sandy Creek.

 

Given the short pen-time in 2017 for Chinook SF and that Atlantics Ylg & Rainbows Ylg were stocked there in 2022, I'd guess that Sandy Creek is believed to currently have a temperature regime that is not as conducive to Chinook survival as other sites. I read somewhere that the mortality rate for Chinooks of that size greatly increases about 52-53F.  
 

[HB2]

12 hours ago, LongLine said:

Per the 2017 L.O. annual report: On 4/21/17 64,000 Chinooks were put in pens on Sandy Cr at 113/Lb (4g) at 50F temperature. They were released on 4/27/17 at 4g weight. (6 days)  

 

Per the 2022 L.O. report: On 4/13/22, 18,800 Atlantic Ylg and on 4/15/22, 17,000 Rainbows Ylg were direct stocked at Sandy Creek.

 

Given the short pen-time in 2017 for Chinook SF and that Atlantics Ylg & Rainbows Ylg were stocked there in 2022, I'd guess that Sandy Creek is believed to currently have a temperature regime that is not as conducive to Chinook survival as other sites. I read somewhere that the mortality rate for Chinooks of that size greatly increases about 52-53F.  
 

Actually they would like you to believe that . 

 

But when stocking was cut , the destination stream stakeholders were crying about not having kings for people coming up to catch , so they gave ours to those sites . 

[GAMBLER]

On 10/12/2024 at 3:51 PM, LongLine said:

"Evolution" may explain what's happen to salmon world- wide but doesn't explain reported differences between US and Canadian Kings. 

 

The problem with research is that for every question answered, many more questions spring up.

 

Browsing thru the 2017 L.O. Annual report (Sec.3) there is significantly greater straying by direct stocked Kings than by pen reared Kings.  Direct stocked greatly returned to the SR, although some Pen reared did. The objective of the pen rearing is to get the kings to return to those pen sites.

 

In same publication (Sec.1 A-13) there is a table showing the weights of the pen reared kings for a number of years.  From 2005-2016 the average weight of DEC SF pen reared kings was 6.2g.  For same years, OMNR SF pen reared was 7.7g. (24% bigger)

 

Browsing the 2022 L.O. Annual report: Almost 600K SF Kings (DEC) were pen reared out of 904K Kings stocked.  The average weight calculated to 6.9g.

 

The questions I have include: Does this weight difference explain some of the weight differences reported as adult fish?  Why is there a weight difference between DEC & OMNR SF fish?  Should the SF Kings be kept at hatchery or in the pens a little longer?  

NY kings - Salmon River the big fish get roped out and the hatchery takes eggs from what ever comes in.  Not many big fish get to spawn naturally due to going home on a rope.   Canadian Tribs (Garnaska) is closed to fishing during the peak of the salmon spawn.  HMMMMMMM.  

[HB2]

You know , I was just thinking , cause that's what I do . 

 

They have these salmon tournaments most every weekend during the year at different ports of LO . 

 These highly advanced big boats, and there are a lot of them ,  with the latest equipment with the best anglers fish for the biggest 4 salmon box for cash prices. These boats only keep the biggest salmon they catch  . 

 

So all these multiple biggest fish kept, and there are a lot ,  are not available to run the rivers to pass on those big fish genes. If those biggest fish are kept early spring / summer , they are the ones that would be the biggest come late summer.  

 

In fact , it seems , that there is  a direct correlation between king size and when the number of salmon tournaments exploded in the last 15 years . 

 

Something to consider , don't you think ? 

[Yankee Troller]

2 minutes ago, HB2 said:

You know , I was just thinking , cause that's what I do . 

 

They have these salmon tournaments most every weekend during the year at different ports of LO . 

 These highly advanced big boats, and there are a lot of them ,  with the latest equipment with the best anglers fish for the biggest 4 salmon box for cash prices. These boats only keep the biggest salmon they catch  . 

 

So all these multiple biggest fish kept, and there are a lot ,  are not available to run the rivers to pass on those big fish genes. If those biggest fish are kept early spring / summer , they are the ones that would be the biggest come late summer.  

 

In fact , it seems , that there is  a direct correlation between king size and when the number of salmon tournaments exploded in the last 15 years . 

 

Something to consider , don't you think ? 

 

The numbers taken during tourneys is a drop in the bucket when you look at what is stocked and naturally reproduced each year. Trolling open water hoping for big fish is vastly different than sight fishing a ditch or having to run a gauntlet on both sides of the river to make it to a hatchery. These big ones are half out of the water when running rapids and easily spotted by the crowds.

 

These are pretty liberal numbers but lets say there are 50 tourneys on the lake in a season. Each one consisting of 20 teams, and each team takes 10 fish a day. That's 10,000 fish a year. For Chinook only they stock about 1,000,000 a year and due to a 50% natural reproduction rate (on average) that means 2,000,000 enter our system. I'd bet more than 10,000 leave our tribs in a months time.

[Traveling Circus]

1 hour ago, Yankee Troller said:

I'd bet more than 10,000 leave our tribs in a months time.

 

Maybe for 6 weeks....... half of September and all of October. 

 

1 hour ago, Yankee Troller said:

The numbers taken during tourneys is a drop in the bucket when you look at what is stocked and naturally reproduced each year.

 

So 15,000 are "roped" and 10,000 are "Tournament Coolered"..... and Tournament numbers are a drop in the bucket "when you look at what is stocked and what is naturally reproduced".

 

Then the trib guys are roping a drop and a half........

 

We're all in this together Captain. It shouldn't be an us vs. them conversation.

[Yankee Troller]

3 minutes ago, Traveling Circus said:

We're all in this together Captain. It shouldn't be an us vs. them conversation.

 

But it is. The disrespect the Salmon get from the trib fishery is disgusting, and law enforcement can't control it. I find it funny how trib anglers can put restrictions on lake anglers, but lake fisherman can't put restrictions on trib anglers.

[Gill-T]

A dead fish in a cooler or on a rope is still a dead fish. Stocking numbers factor both into the equation. Total numbers is not what the spirit of this thread was about. How do we stop the slide into smaller fish that spawn at 2 years?  Perhaps a slot for kings on the Salmon River?  We want the two year olds yanked out. Catch and release anything over 30” ?? 

[HB2]

5 hours ago, Yankee Troller said:

 

The numbers taken during tourneys is a drop in the bucket when you look at what is stocked and naturally reproduced each year. Trolling open water hoping for big fish is vastly different than sight fishing a ditch or having to run a gauntlet on both sides of the river to make it to a hatchery. These big ones are half out of the water when running rapids and easily spotted by the crowds.

 

These are pretty liberal numbers but lets say there are 50 tourneys on the lake in a season. Each one consisting of 20 teams, and each team takes 10 fish a day. That's 10,000 fish a year. For Chinook only they stock about 1,000,000 a year and due to a 50% natural reproduction rate (on average) that means 2,000,000 enter our system. I'd bet more than 10,000 leave our tribs in a months time.

That's 10 k of the biggest fish  , with the biggest fish genes that never even get a chance to run the gauntlet. 

 

They didn't get dragged in by their tails , they get dragged in behind a boat at 2 .5 mph with hopes of doubles and triples with all the multiple lines and high tech equipment  to add to the fun . 

 

Some might say that's disrespectful . 

So people in glass houses .......

 

 

 

 

[LongLine]

Let me 1st say I'm an open water guy.  Tried tribs twice in my life.  1st time (early 80's) I saw guys snagging huge salmon and thought it was criminal.  2nd time, slipped on my butt & nearly drowned...so scrow that!  But I'm also a Data guy.  It's not a matter of what I'd like to believe.

 

As to the Sandy Pens, someone contributed the size issue to discontinuing those pens yet here is the data from the Chinooks measured at the SR over years:

 

Pens were at Sandy Creek in 2017.  Size decline showed up well before 2017. Here are the pen numbers from 2017 report:

As to why they discontinued pens there, published strategy was that they wanted to spread them out more based on the tagging/marking studies that Chinooks caught in the open water could have originated from anywhere and to spread out the trib runs somewhat evenly across all 4 regions of Big-O. They also did away with Little Sodus (Fair Haven) Sodus and 12 Mile. Here's the numbers for the 2022 stocking: (note they increased the numbers in the pens and did away with the direct stocking.  They did have a small surplus but unknown where they went)

As to closing the river, I'm not against that however, it's not going to happen.  Angler survey estimated 870,000 effort hours spent on the open water in a whole season and 747,000 on the SR.  On the SR, 373,000 hours from shore estimated to occur during the month of October.  That'd be a lot of pizzed off trib guys and a lot of potential economic loss for the east end.

 

As proposed before, I'm all in favor of some kind of daily max length per angler for open water and tribs. I.E. keep only 1 over a certain length per angler.  I don't know how that affects tournaments (But don't they require all legal fish must count in box?)  Maybee some tourney guys can chime in on their rules?

 

There's no doubt in my mind that Pen Rearing helps survival and growth so here's an "off the wall" idea.  I believe the DEC and OMNR coordinate efforts (sometimes "friendly" competition). Could a deal be made where some of the Chinook SF in our pens are Canadian SF?   Maybe 10% or so in each pen?  Maybe over a few years?

[Yankee Troller]

14 hours ago, HB2 said:

That's 10 k of the biggest fish  , with the biggest fish genes that never even get a chance to run the gauntlet. 

 

They didn't get dragged in by their tails , they get dragged in behind a boat at 2 .5 mph with hopes of doubles and triples with all the multiple lines and high tech equipment  to add to the fun . 

 

Some might say that's disrespectful . 

So people in glass houses .......

 

 

 

 

 

Lake fish are actively feeding in wide open water, and CHOOSE to bite. Trib Salmon are not actively feeding and are whipped, lined, and snagged out of their environment where they are funneled into tight runs, or sight fished out of shallow water. One is clearly more disrespectful.

 

As far as your theory about 10k of the biggest fish that's so far from the truth. 75% of the teams fishing these events struggle, which means they're weighing in small fish. Look at the spread in the standings.

[LazyRiver585]

In theory slot limits on the salmon river may prove beneficial. Unfortunately, the same issue that allows snagging to continue will also be a detriment to any new regulations regarding size of fish harvested… there’s not enough man power to enforce the rules and ensure the majority of the anglers will be abiding by them. If anything, slots would be significantly tougher. 
closing periodically would be the easiest path without considering the financial crippling that would ensue. Maybe have a lottery similar to Maine Moose? Maybe just limit the amount of angling pressure? 

[whaler1]

Seems to me that if you purchase a fishing license you should be able to enjoy the resource in accordance with the regulations. In my opinion that should include those that don’t own boats. If there are particular sections of some tributaries that are particularly vulnerable I see no reason they can’t be restricted assuming there is still reasonable access available. 
Complaining about people because of the electronics on their boat is laughable at best. Charters provide a crucial opportunity for those that don’t own boats to enjoy the resource and are some of the strongest ambassadors we have regarding the fishery. To suggest the go back to paper graphs and Loran C is frankly bizarre. 

[LongLine]

I agree with Whaler but note regulations can change every year. 

 

I'm sure many members remember when the Salomine limit was 5 and not 3 in combination with only 2 Stlhd over 21." Also the years before the slot limit on Lakers; and years when the limit on bass was 10" with 6 per day; just to name a few.  I don't remember when they initiated the timed closing of the Little Sandy (Oswego) nor when they initiated the section of the SR to fly fishing only.

 

I really don't see why a new one of a "max length slot" type one can't be initiated in the General Lake Ontario and Tributary regulation section. (I.E.  Harvest one King over "X" length per angler per day)

 

According to the 2022 angler surveys: 51,864 Kings were harvested by boats over 169 days, (5+ months) yet 30,968 Kings were caught in the SR in the month of October alone.  We don't know how many of the boat caught fish would have gone to the SR but we do know the benefit of Pen rearing regarding returns and according to same report, 62% of those boat caught Kings were on the west end.  We also do know that the 30,968 Kings were in the SR at spawning time.

 

As to enforcement, what keeps anyone within the laws? Actually getting caught? The threat of getting caught?  Upbringing as a "law abiding" citizen?  Knowing that DEC is counting cars and doing angler surveys? 

[HB2]

9 hours ago, Yankee Troller said:

 

Lake fish are actively feeding in wide open water, and CHOOSE to bite. Trib Salmon are not actively feeding and are whipped, lined, and snagged out of their environment where they are funneled into tight runs, or sight fished out of shallow water. One is clearly more disrespectful.

 

 

The " these fish don't hit " ain't right.  

I've had I would say 50 king hookups the last month or so ( my landing percentage sucks though) on skien. More than a few have swallowed the hook . I also have had a good number over the years smash a J 13 rapala . Also fly fishing early Nov browns have had  kings hit a woolly bugger pretty hard , and watched them do it .A lot of guys at the Oak fish skien off the wall successfully . So they don't hit is wrong . Sure there are an awfull lot of outlaws out there . So ticket them .Don't punish law following anglers . 

 

I really don't care about lake anglers and how they choose to fish .I use a lot of the same equipment .  I find it funny that anglers that have all this high tech equipment have a problem with someone with a fly or centerpin outfit and waders . 

 

So I have an idea , let's close down the Salmon River from Sept to Nov for 3 years . 

With one caviat, A moratorium on all Salmon tournaments on Lake Ontario for the same length of time .

You know ,shared sacrifice  . 

 

Then 4 to 7 years from now we MIGHT, MIGHT,  have a chance to catch kings that average 3 to 5 # bigger than we have now . 

 

Definitely not Worth it in my opinion. 

We have a great fishery with trophy fish , albeit not as big as they use to be . What a banner year this was . 

You are in hell if you  land a 20# king and think it's disappointing . 

 

Some people are never satisfied . 

 

 

[HB2]

I can't see how those angler surveys are even remotely accurate , especially lake anglers . I fished a lot this year out of Sandy  ,caught a bunch  and only saw the survey boat once and stopped to see them . I don't know about how the Salmon River surveys go . 

 

 

[LongLine]

Believe what you want.  Personally, I believe statistical sampling a lot more than anecdotal fish stories. There's an age old saying that "all fishermen are liars except you and me, but sometimes I'm not too sure about you."