What's your opinion of the current state of our fishery?

[Reel Chaos]

While I would like to see the days of big fish again it is very hard to complain after a day like today.  High teens kings ripping riggers out to 350ft only to turn and run right back at you and zig and zag through every other line out def makes it exciting 

[jorcus]

I lean toward an environmental explanation vs genetic. According to the DEC a recent study showed 47% of the fish caught were wild reproduction.

 

https://dec.ny.gov/things-to-do/freshwater-fishing/places-to-fish/great-lakes-niagara-river-st-lawrence-river/pacific-salmon-fishing

 

So if is environmental what has changed over the last 20 years?

 

The first hypothesis would be warming waters. In theory that should help the salmon grow but at some point they may have to swim longer and farther to find oxygen rich water or the biomass that they are feeding on. There may be more Biomass in the lake but the distribution of that seems somewhat uneven according to the surveys.

 

A second hypothesis would be that the increasing amounts of pen reared fish is affecting the overall fishery. I believe that 2/3 of the hatchery Kings on the US side are pen reared and 50% on the Canadian side are released in pens. Why could this impact the fishery? More young fish survive increasing the number of older fish competing for the available biomass. I don't know if that is quantifiable but it's something to think about. 

 

 

[Gill-T]

There have been a number of posts giving theories that the reason that fish are smaller is because Lake O is bait poor.  This is the not the case if you review the recent bait assessments.  Something else is in play, therefore, it needs to be studied IMO. 

[GAMBLER]

On 6/22/2024 at 11:22 AM, King Davy said:

Brian I don’t that is happening because truthfully I’d don’t think they have a better answer than what has been simmering on this thread. So now DEC has jumped into the Ancestry game. Building a data base of genealogy for salmon and trout species. The one caveat to that is it will take years of collective data to accurately form predictions on one heritage or another having greater say growth tendencies. 
 

I believe DEC had another banner year of seining on the salmon river. Not sure when the results get broadcast but once again the story could be another 8 to 10 million fry successfully 

hatched. I have a good friend former DEC guy for over 25 years who still shows up to help the guys from Cortland office do the sampling and he said there was a ton of Wild chinooks swimming out of the river. 

I fished the river in April and every step you took you were moving baby chinooks out of the way. Right now the Lake appears to be in balance simply because all those teens to low 20’s seem to have perfect body shape. No snakey looking fish. I know everyone is thankful for that. 
 

The Ferc license for the salmon river I think took place in 1996 or 1998. That started the emergence of large quantities of wild fish. And you had the 50 percent cut still in effect from 1993. Therefore the smaller population of stocked salmon had a buffet of bait to themselves.  One of my thoughts is that wild salmon just simply don’t grow as fast.  They don’t get a quick start being fed in a hatchey. One would argue yeah but we have 800k to 1m stocked fish. There should be plenty of bigger fish.  But it is also possible that the hatchery is spawning wild stocks who still carry the slower growth faster maturing hormones. 

Head scratcher for sure.

That’s great to hear about the wild kings.  A DEC rep to come of websites like this and talk about current issues / trends in the fishery would be awesome no matter what the topics.  Talking to the public about what is going on and what they are doing would put a lot of the theories to rest.  They do a great job coming to the Charter Association and club meetings but social media would reach more people.  This site would be a great place for this interaction.   

[BRsnow]

Obviously not scientific but looking at old photos of larger kings we caught , many were pretty far into to color change in mid July. I also noticed this on larger kings from Lake Michigan we got back in the day as well. 

[Crestliner]

simple no food

[GAMBLER]

15 hours ago, Crestliner said:

simple no food

Read the link I posted……

[seeyawader]

Some funny posts, like I'm catching too many fish there is too many fish in the lake,,,lol,,,one thing Ive noticed this year is a lot more stable water and less wind pushing water and fish around. These winds this week should take care of that and you guys will get some less bite days, maybe even a skunk day,,,maybe that will make everyone happy 😁 

[Crestliner]

Alaska having much worse outcome. to many sockeye no food for the King. 50 pounds in past now average net catch 12

[Crestliner]

Gambler, Orwell creek produces more wild fish of all flavors I know I catch em. Get to fish private property up there I sees um wit my own eyeballs not fake fish just god and mother nature!!!!! Just like Naples Creek. A perfect example of the Government not doing anything but counting fish. If you cant catch a bow in Canandaigua ya better give up fishin, Haha. In Orwell you can watch it happening !

[Crestliner]

And that don't cost the tax payers a dime. Just put a little in plate on sunday

[BRsnow]

 Bit of 40lb nostalgia, going through older photos from our Lake O trips.  It is a different experience. I am personally a quality vs quantity person. I do understand the draw of numbers though. I netted a bunch of big kings but personally only caught a 28lb for my best. We will see, maybe I can get a 30 someday.

Edited June 27 by BRsnow

[whaler1]

Should keep the current program in place. Nice for people to go out, set some rods and catch some kings. 
At the same time introduce some fish that have the potential to get big and not spawn after two or three years. 
Be nice to know there are still some monsters out there. 

[Lucky D]

There are always a few big kings to be caught look at the 48in 37pounder caught of wilson this year. Alot of water to find 1 big king and then have him grab your offering.lol Last year I spoke to a charter captain on the little salmon river. I asked him why no big kings of yesteryear his answer was the Charter captains meet with the DEC and were asked if they wanted more fish or bigger fish and all said more fish. I get that thats how they make a living .happy clients repeat customers its numbers not size.

[BRsnow]

9 minutes ago, Lucky D said:

There are always a few big kings to be caught look at the 48in 37pounder caught of wilson this year. Alot of water to find 1 big king and then have him grab your offering.lol Last year I spoke to a charter captain on the little salmon river. I asked him why no big kings of yesteryear his answer was the Charter captains meet with the DEC and were asked if they wanted more fish or bigger fish and all said more fish. I get that thats how they make a living .happy clients repeat customers its numbers not size.

You caught your limit back then as well just the fish were much bigger. Giant kings and steelhead. You didn’t have to know what you were doing either, I was able to catch them:-) you had quality and quantity.

[Lucky D]

I started fishing the lake in 1982. i booked a charter with lloyd perkins out of mexico. boat name perky. He told me then there is enough fish for everyone. after 2 trips with him I purchased a boat and been fishing ever since. The only difference is how. Back then 17lb line was standard 10lb ball worked fine . now lake is much clearer way more current goby minnows. I think fish were bigger back then because fish used to stock were bigger at the hatchery.you could look in the town pool on the salmon river in september and see 35 to 40lb kings now you see 18 to 25lb fish. they are stocking a different king then what we used to catch.I think those days are gone for good.

[TyeeTanic]

Likely a combination of reasons.  We always get stuck on arguments about the ONE reason ... but often it's a variety of reasons, and we are all kind of right.

[chinook35]

I ran across a picture from 1998   This is a common box of fish from the day. That’s a 150 qt igloo cooler for perspective 

[LongLine]

The lower food web in Lake Ontario has changed quite a bit. 

 

Kings eat alewife.  Alewife numbers have greatly increased, especially the older ones. King numbers are good, but Kings (caught) weight is less than what it used to be.  

 

My question is whether the same age alewife contain the same calories/nutritional value that they used to?  Brian's report says condition of the 6.5" alewife has decreased but published studies site length. They say nothing about nutritional value.

 

What are the alewives eating?  A few years ago, DEC reported they were eating more fleas and that the fleas had little nutritional value. So, the question is whether the alewives today are a diet version of those of years past.  If a King can only eat 10 alewife per day because of the size of his stomach, will he get as fat/big if those 10 are diet version as he would if those 10 were fat greasy ones?  Browns & Lakers don't seem to be getting any smaller.
 

[Gill-T]

A little more money and international interest with Tunas but there is much to learn via research. Much of what could be learned by studying the shrinking king size issue might have a benefit to our own health and wellbeing. For example, what if nanoplastics entering the food chain is negatively effecting the reproduction in king salmon?  We might want to know that bit of information. Again, this is a hypothetical example but salmon are a great indicator species of what is going on in the environment. 
 

 

Edited July 5 by Gill-T

[GAMBLER]

[Gill-T]

The answer may be as simple as the natural reproduction is happening in smaller, better quality streams that favor smaller fish sizes in order to navigate low flows and/or evade snatching attempts by anglers. 
 

 

[LongLine]

Interesting theories, however, Kings aren't Tuna and they don't spend their lives in streams. Many shakers in the 10-12 inch size are caught quite a ways from streams.  Smaller Chinook size is not unique to Lake Ontario.  It's happening in Alaska too.

 

Here's an interesting article that was published in Nature:  

 

Recent declines in salmon body size impact ecosystems and fisheries | Nature Communications

 

This article talks quite a bit about salmon maturing at younger age, hence not having enough time to grow to the larger sizes that are highly desirable of sportfishermen. All salmon are experiencing it, but it is most notable with the kings. Further down in the article, they talk about why the declining maturity age and say a major factor is warmer water.  The warmer water has the effect of speeding up their metabolism which speeds up the aging process.

[HB2]

15 hours ago, LongLine said:

Interesting theories, however, Kings aren't Tuna and they don't spend their lives in streams. Many shakers in the 10-12 inch size are caught quite a ways from streams.  Smaller Chinook size is not unique to Lake Ontario.  It's happening in Alaska too.

 

Here's an interesting article that was published in Nature:  

 

Recent declines in salmon body size impact ecosystems and fisheries | Nature Communications

 

This article talks quite a bit about salmon maturing at younger age, hence not having enough time to grow to the larger sizes that are highly desirable of sportfishermen. All salmon are experiencing it, but it is most notable with the kings. Further down in the article, they talk about why the declining maturity age and say a major factor is warmer water.  The warmer water has the effect of speeding up their metabolism which speeds up the aging process.

 I read articles on this where some feel the warmer water is a contributing factor . But the salmon in LO seek out the water temp that is desirable to them . 

 

If 50 degree water is down 150 ft , that's where we fish . And where we see the fish on our depth finders . 

 

Seems like the only time they spend any amount of time in warm water is when they stage or run the streams 

 

So I wonder about that . 

[Gill-T]

Right HB2, 48 degrees in 1985 is still the same as 48 degrees in 2024 -they are probably occupying the same preferred temps. They are done growing by the time they hit the streams so warmer trib temps should have no bearing on fish sizes unless smaller fish tolerate warmer water better than larger fish and therefore survive to spawn -passing on their genes.