Lamprey Control under the Trump administration

[spoonfed-1]

  On 3/6/2025 at 6:06 PM, dreamsteelie said:

The Great Lakes Fishery Commission is working diligently to contest this and make the Administration aware of the importance of the program and what can be lost.  I am involved as a sport fishing advisor to the State of PA and am being informed of the progress.  I know it is underway.   Support letter writing was requested and has begun, I copied Joe Yaeger from LOTSA on some things.   It may help if individuals or groups contact their representatives and senators ASAP on this matter and ask the Administration to come up with the proper funding to continue the treatments.  The majority of the cuts involved the field staff that applies the treatments (this is what I was told).  There is discussion of calling on use of local volunteers to help (if needed). To help with the grunt work.  

 

I cannot dispute CUTS were needed in many things.  However, I am sure that is the tree is shook hard, our Administration will go back and look at this again.  I remain hopeful.  Shake some trees. Voicing our opinion on a thread is one thing, making the time to contact your politicians, write letters, seek a meeting will take it to the next level.  A common man once said. "doing nothing gets one nothing"

 

EXCELLENT watch here: Amazon or Apple TV 

 

This is the history of the Lamprey Eel, salmon and how the treatments came to fruition. 

 

 www.thefishthief.com

 

Captain Pete 

Vision Quest Sport Fishing

 

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Thanks for the information.

[dreamsteelie]

Hi Spoonfed, Canadians are WAY behind on their share of the costs of such things. Like millions behind while they reap the benefits of USA paying for it.  There was MUCH banter and pressure put on the CNDS as well as  a boycotted meeting by the US because of this.  This ones  a longggggg story, BUT a solution is underway.  All of the treatments are done are orchestrated thru the GLFC inc Canada.  They were supposed to help pay. 

 

Much info on this website:

 

https://www.glfc.org/

 

Captain Pete

[dreamsteelie]

Hi Spoonfed, Canadians are WAY behind on their share of the costs of such things. Like millions behind while they reap the benefits of USA paying for it.  There was MUCH banter and pressure put on the CNDS as well as  a boycotted meeting by the US because of this.  This ones  a longggggg story, BUT a solution is underway.  All of the treatments are done are orchestrated thru the GLFC inc Canada.  They were supposed to help pay. 

 

Much info on this website:

 

https://www.glfc.org/

 

Captain Pete

[dreamsteelie]

One more thing before I get back to work: The GLFC Upper and Lower Lakes meetings will be held the week of March 17th in Niagara Falls, ONT.  I will be attending and expect I will definitely have up to date information on this.  I will try to remember to share this.  The Lake Ontario committee meets that Tuesday and Wednesday am. 

 

Captain Pete

[spoonfed-1]

More good info that I was not aware of. Thanks

[HB2]

  On 3/6/2025 at 6:13 PM, dreamsteelie said:

Hi Spoonfed, Canadians are WAY behind on their share of the costs of such things. Like millions behind while they reap the benefits of USA paying for it.  There was MUCH banter and pressure put on the CNDS as well as  a boycotted meeting by the US because of this.  This ones  a longggggg story, BUT a solution is underway.  All of the treatments are done are orchestrated thru the GLFC inc Canada.  They were supposed to help pay. 

 

Much info on this website:

 

https://www.glfc.org/

 

Captain Pete

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Well imagine that . Seem like this has been going around . We pay and other nations let us . 

 

Would love to see the treatments be facilitated by a US or NY entity of some kind especially if we are bearing the brunt on cost . 

 

We need to quit outsourcing a lot of this kind of stuff . 

 

[dreamsteelie]

Just to clarify: The treatments are scheduled and applied by the GLFC which is US.  The Cnds are supposed to "pay their share"  and a a bit behind...... by millions.  I know they are heavy handing the Cnds about this and hopefully, the money owed is paid back as well as future funds.

[Gator]

1. If we wait for a problem to become a problem, then we will be behind the eight ball in formulating a solution. Got to think ahead.

 

2. Some solutions are too extreme, no matter the debt we owe. Thanos snapped his fingers and wiped out half the population of the universe, silly as that was, in Avengers. See my leadoff statement. We need to weigh juice for the squeeze and minimize collateral damage.

 

3. A big thanks to those posting information rather than opinions. I will contact my representatives.

[Yankee Troller]

  On 3/6/2025 at 9:49 PM, dreamsteelie said:

Just to clarify: The treatments are scheduled and applied by the GLFC which is US.  The Cnds are supposed to "pay their share"  and a a bit behind...... by millions.  I know they are heavy handing the Cnds about this and hopefully, the money owed is paid back as well as future funds.

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I thought the whole debacle during covid (where streams weren't treated) was blamed on the Canadians not being able to cross the boarder? Am I wrong?

Edited March 7 by Yankee Troller

[Bozeman Bob]

So why doesn't NY pay for it out of there own pocket ? They take in hundreds of millions in license fees and taxes on ( fishing) boats , motors , trailers , lodgings , gas and gear etc . Or does all those hundreds of millions go into a slush fund and is distributed to whatever " they " deem worthy ? Horseface has zero clout with the current administration,  do you think the Feds would even listen to her if she asked them for MORE relief money because of her screwed up policies . See what the COs have had to put up with because of failed laws . Or maybe the 59 million spent in NYC on hotels for illegals , might have a bearing on the Feds handing this power hungry biotch any more money . 

[GAMBLER]

  On 3/7/2025 at 1:09 PM, Yankee Troller said:

 

I thought the who debacle during covid (where streams weren't treated) was blamed on the Canadians not being able to cross the boarder? Am I worng?

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I heard that and I heard the trawlers couldn't cross the border.  I think it was the state department that wouldn't allow this.  I could be wrong.  

[LongLine]

Sea Lampreys are not like salmon in that they are not known to return to their natal streams to spawn.  Rather than being guided by their sense of "smell" to where they were born or imprinted, they seek out flowing clean streams.  Hence, they spread westward thru the Great Lakes thus caused greater damage in Huron & Superior and were first detected there than in Erie. 

 

Lampricide treatments are done every 3-5 years by GLFC, across all the lakes. (unlike Champlain where they occur every 2 years by NYSDEC and USF&WS) Ontario, Erie, Huron & Superior are Federal waters bound by treaties.  GLFC is a joint venture and supported by both countries.  The SR area of the lake is too important to the NY fishery and economy so DEC will protect it. (although they have to fight for state funds also) 

 

As to Lampricide treatment in Lake Ontario:
In 2021: 8 CD tribs and 3 US tribs were treated.  The 3 US were done by NYSDEC in the SR area. Other US tribs were deferred.
In 2022: 6 CD and 9 US tribs were treated.
In 2023: 0 CD and 4 US tribs were treated.

Some of the reasons given for reduced treatment on CD side were low flow in a couple tribs and feared effects on steelhead.

 

https://www.glfc.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2021.pdf

https://fr.glfc.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2022.pdf

https://lampreycontrol.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2023.pdf

 

If you read through the above links, you'll see CD went "hog-wild" with Lampricide in Superior & Huron. (2 and 3 times what US did.)  

 

Lampricide, although very good, is not the silver bullet/cure-all. You can also see the introduction of "Alternative Lamprey Control" that includes traps and migration barriers.  On Lake Ontario, they installed and maintain 13 migration barriers on the North shore whereas only 3 on the US. (all on the east end)

 

Some questions.  Turning to "Alternative Control" do Lampreys build up some immunity? How effective are the barriers? Does the Lampricide affect steelhead? 

 

Regardless, Lamprey control efforts need to be supported.

 

Congress has a "Great Lakes Task Force" that late last month submitted a bill to fund money for the Great Lakes. The NYS members are Tim Kennedy, Nick Langworthy, John Mannion, Joe Morelle and Claudia Tenney. Every state bordering the Great Lakes has members. They need to be contacted along with other representatives in your area to support the fishery.

 

[dreamsteelie]

The debacle occurred when State/Federal employees were permitted to stay home? told to? or not allowed to go to work during that period due to social distancing rules, etc... That halted the treatment just like many other businesses and activities and schools that were halted-no different.   To my knowledge and from memory, the border was also shut down to keep us potential disease carrying Americans out of CND. So both reasons halted the treatments, technically.

 

Yes-treatments are done sporadically all over the Great Lakes and alternate locations and years-again due to funding.  It would be great if they could treat each stream that they spawn in every year, which would eradicate most over time.  $$$$$$ tho.  

 

The Lampricide does not effect other species-  The Fish Thief movie does  a great job explaining all of this.

 

The GLFC is US based and has Canadian advisers.  We funded the treatments in CND with an agreement that they pay us back.  

 

 

[HB2]

The time I saw treatment in Sandy from Holley to the lake was done by Canada . 

 

My friend talked to the tech who was doing the treatment and asked about it killing fish and he said " minimal due off" whatever that means . 

 

Sorry , Gator , get out the ax . Make the cuts , lop off the dead weight , get it over with so we can get on with it. If it's not done this way it won't get done and will only get worse . 

[LongLine]

Yes, you're right.  2020 is the year the border was closed and no lampricide applied to Lk Ontario and Erie.  (Although 6 tribs had been scheduled for each - North & South shores) Closure was from March '20 to Nov '21 for non-essential traffic and many sites deferred in 2021 on US side. 

 

https://sealamprey.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2020.pdf

 

Treatments normally done in spring.  Numbers shown in 2021 link occurred in July/Aug '21. 

 

The Movie & scientists did a great job but I couldn't tell what the small fish were that survived while the lamprey died.  They didn't look like juvenile salmonid to me. (I could be wrong) I'd like to know why the CD concern on that trib for steelhead. 

[dreamsteelie]

Longline, I am not sure why the concern?  The treatments are not supposed to be harmful.. They treat a stream in PA with trout in it.  I have never heard of  a fish kill related to the treatments-anywhere. 

[Gator]

  On 3/8/2025 at 12:11 AM, HB2 said:

The time I saw treatment in Sandy from Holley to the lake was done by Canada . 

 

My friend talked to the tech who was doing the treatment and asked about it killing fish and he said " minimal due off" whatever that means . 

 

Sorry , Gator , get out the ax . Make the cuts , lop off the dead weight , get it over with so we can get on with it. If it's not done this way it won't get done and will only get worse . 

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Put your money where your mouth is and donate your retirement to reducing the debt. After all, you are asking that other folks shoulder the burden by taking away the future that they've worked their whole lives for. Do it!! I still won't agree with you, but at least I will respect that you back up your opinion with action.

[HB2]

People get fired every day in the private sector  and not get 8 month severance. Go find something better. 

These Gov employees  did not get a 30 year contract and more till death .

And taxpayers, who are the ones shouldering this , have to be on the hook for it forever . 

 

 

 

A lot of people have no clue where money comes from. ESPECIALLY if they have never been in business for themselves and have to provide and save for their own retirement . Mine is not guaranteed . If the economy tanks , like that hasn't happened before , a lot of us want what we worked for to be there . And I'm watching the value of my dollar be less every day . 

 

 

I sure would like to know exactly how much the cost is to lampricide the NY state side of LO . Not how much money was allotted, because that is different,but the actual cost . And if Canada actually is in arrears in this , where did the money come from to pay for those treatments ? 

 

Edited March 8 by HB2

[Gator]

All good points! I was of course just using hyperbole to illustrate the point that it's always easier to offload the burden on someone else's shoulders. We are all in this together. And I, like you, think that the national debt is one of the largest problems facing us. But I want to make sure before hack and slash cuts that we are actually making the problem better not worse. 

 

I think that one of the words in DOGE is "efficiency", but I'm not seeing it.

 

There's a great article in NY Outdoor News regarding the recent cuts to the Park Service. I agreed with the final take that the intent is to limit services to the point where privatization becomes necessary. And there goes the neighborhood. Our National Park system is the envy of the world. It would be a shame to lose it.

[rolmops]

Why is it that some people are in favor of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

 

[LongLine]

Well, back to the Lampreys:

On pg 23 of the 2021 lamprey control report, the Credit River treatment was deferred to 2022 due to the abundance of steelhead noticed in the river.  All the CND treatments in 2021 were done in August.

https://www.glfc.org/pubs/slcp/annual_reports/ANNUAL_REPORT_2021.pdf

 

In 2022 the Credit River was treated much earlier in July. (Probably no steelhead in the river earlier that year) So the question is why the concern over steelhead?  Initially, I thought maybe they didn't want steelhead eating the half dead poisoned Lamprey.  The film said that Lake trout once ate juvenile Lamprey which maintained predator-prey balance until commercial fishing depleted the lake Trout numbers and maybe steelhead would do the same. (That thought was wrong.)

 

Reviewing the film again and a little googling reveals the treatments are by highly trained technicians who first measure flows, pH, Oxygen content and measure/observe more of the water to be treated and not by a bunch of "yahoos." They pick sites according to where Lamprey breed and figure the chemical will disperse/dilute enough as it travels downstream, out to the lake, as to not be a threat to other species. They do calculations as to the amount of lampricide to use which is quite evident in all the annual reports that I've previously linked to.

 

The goal of the lampricide program is to kill Lamprey to help restore the Lake Trout to the lakes. The film goes thru somewhat of a timeline for the testing and development of TFM. Development was before the alewife explosion and the introduction of Cohos. (Then Kings then Browns & steelheads.)

 

Further googling "How does Lampricide kill Lampreys" is interesting:  TFM is not a Hollywood poison where one foams at the mouth or goes into convulsions.  (note in the film the tech wears a gas mask while mixing powder chemicals) One can refer to this article:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8427354/  

 

where I quote:  "Exposure to TFM causes marked reductions in tissue glycogen and high energy phosphagens in lamprey and rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) by interfering with oxidative ATP production in the mitochondria."

 

In other words, it attacks the tissues/substances on their gills/respiratory system, and they'll die.  Literature mention that sturgeon and rainbows as well as the Lampreys are susceptible due to their gill "configuration." (Only 3 mentioned) Damage is minimized to other specie at treatment time due to concentrations and as only Lamprey plus others that can withstand polluted water are present in the stream.

 

I'm all in favor of Lampricide treatments, not because I care all that much about LTs but because I've personally seen a lot of salmon with Lamprey wounds over the years. It's the Salmon that has made Sportfishing popular and been the most benefit to the Great lakes. 

 

I also appreciate the efforts of the scientists and technicians that do the treatments. We can't have a bunch of "yahoos" just throwing chemicals into the water and we can't defer Lamprey control. 

 

 

[Gill-T]

Great post Longline! 👍 

[Gator]

x2! I think I'd mentioned at some point here or elsewhere that the lampricide belongs to a class of chemicals that was used as weight loss drugs in the last century - until folks started dying from heat exhaustion! Dinitrophenol uncouples your mitochondria and wastes energy in the form of heat. Makes them work harder, ergo the weight loss, but - just like non-shivering thermogenesis in brown adipose tissue - generates heat instead. 

 

Lovely. The things people do. At least they're used now to exploit a selective vulnerability in lamprey. Still toxic to other species at high enough doses though.

 

Interestingly, these drugs are currently being applied at very low doses in therapeutic trials to combat Parkinson's disease, since they can elicit a mitochondrial stress response that helps prevent the consequences of a problematic quality control system. Cool, right?

[dreamsteelie]

To extend the point of treatments:  The treatment needs to be applied by someone trained and experienced.  It was also explained that before treatments are applied, they go in and assess the native species and aquatic life in any new streams they intend to treat.  When they discovered the one stream in PA that had Lampreys spawning, there were delays in treatments due to the necessity to obtain permits.  This was due to the face that a particular snail (I believe it was  a snail) that lived in the stream.  Eventually, they were allowed to treat the stream. 

 

The attached article provides most if not all the information concerning the impact of TFM on fish and other species, here are a few extracts.  It is a long article but explains much about the results of fish/other species exposed to TFM:  

Here is an extract:

https://www.glfc.org/pubs/pdfs/research/Wilkie et al. 2019. Control of invasive sea lampreys using the piscicide....pdf

 

5.1.1. TFM In trout exposed to routine, sub-lethal concentrations of TFM, few adverse effects have been noted, other than transient increases in plasma cortisol after treatment (Birceanu and Wilkie, 2018). At higher concentrations of TFM, decreases in muscle and liver glycogen have been observed (Birceanu et al., 2014). It is unlikely that such disturbances would have any long-term impact on the animal’s fitness, however, because liver glycogen fluctuates markedly in fishes with changes in food availability, food consumption and other stressors (Vijayan and Moon, 1992; Milligan, 2003; Miller et al., 2009). Muscle glycogen stores are also labile, as demonstrated by marked reductions following vigorous, exhaustive exercise (e.g. Milligan and Wood, 1986; Wang et al., 1994; Wilkie et al., 1997) and fasting (Scarabello et al., 1991). In the short-term, reductions in muscle glycogen could compromise burst or endurance swimming and negatively influence foraging or predator-evasion. However, there is a conspicuous lack of experiments investigating swim performance including burst, sustained and prolonged measures (see Farrell, 2008; Tierney, 2011 for reviews), in non-target fishes. It is likely that with feeding, glycogen stores would be restored within hours or days following TFM exposure. Brain glycogen concentrations also fluctuate markedly with fasting, followed by rapid replenishment following feeding (Soengas and Aldegunde, 2002; Polakof et al., 2007), suggesting that any neurophysiological energy deficits would be rapidly corrected in non-target fishes. It would be informative, however, to examine how altered energy charge in the brain following exposure to TFM influences behavior or sensory physiology in fishes. Sakamoto et al. (2016) noted that olfaction was impaired in lake sturgeon during exposure to TFM, but recovery following exposure was not examined. Nor were any behavioural effects, M.P. Wilkie, et al. Aquatic Toxicology xxx (xxxx) xxx–xxx 11 including predator avoidance, noted in rainbow trout or fathead minnows exposed to TFM (Middaugh et al., 2014). Damage to the gills, as suggested in earlier studies (Christie and Battle, 1963; Mallatt et al., 1985, 1994), does not appear to be a factor in TFM-induced physiological disturbances, at least in moderately hard to very hard water. Mallatt et al. (1994) suggested that if TFM reduced ATP supply, active ion transport by the gill would be impaired, leading to ionoregulatory disturbances and death in both lamprey and nontarget fishes. However, exposure to TFM did not affect plasma ion balance or inhibit Na+uptake in larval sea lamprey, although it did cause an increase in branchial Na+/K+-ATPase activity following a 9–12 h exposure (Birceanu et al., 2009). Similarly, disturbances to ion balance, Na+/K+-ATPase and V-ATPase (H+-ATPase) activity were conspicuously absent in non-target fishes exposed to TFM, including lake sturgeon and rainbow trout (Birceanu et al., 2009, 2014; L. Sorensen and M.P. Wilkie, Unpublished findings)

 

5.2. Chronic toxicity The possibility that TFM negatively impacts vertebrates and invertebrates at the population level remains largely unexplored. Recently, Middaugh et al. (2014) reported that rainbow trout and lake sturgeon fingerlings experienced no adverse effects on growth in a two week period following a 12 h exposure to environmentally relevant concentrations of TFM in the lab. They further noted that predator avoidance of fathead minnows (to largemouth bass) was unaffected by exposure to the lampricide, implying that a typical treatment does not affect growth or susceptibility to predation.

 

When used appropriately, the adverse effects of TFM and niclosamide on aquatic ecosystems are minimal. However, instances of nontarget mortality do occur, which are often highly publicized. Such incidents, along with greater antipathy towards the chemical control of pests in general, have led to increasing public and regulatory concern about the effects of lampricides on aquatic biota. It is therefore imperative to develop further knowledge of the biology and sensitivity of non-target species to lampricides, with a focus on species, differences in rates of uptake, detoxification, distribution and elimination. Such knowledge is needed to provide sea lamprey control agents, fisheries managers, decision makers, and regulators with the ability to better identify, predict and mitigate any potential adverse effects arising from lampricide applications.

 

Additional article on TFM/Results etc...

https://www.glfc.org/pubs/SpecialPubs/Sp85_6.pdf

 

The GLFC/GLATOS program was also supposed to place transmitters in adult Lampreys to help discover additional spawning locations.  I am not sure if they completed that goal but will try to find out if they did this.

 

I will update this thread when I hear more.  In the mean time, we all could write or email our State Reps.  It is an easy process to email them from their websites.  I have done this and have requested all of our clubs and associations in Erie, PA area to do so.

 

[LongLine]

Glad we went back to discussing Lamprey control and no political BS.  (for at least 24 hrs)

 

Thanx Gator and great articles by dreamsteellie.  Hard to paraphrase but I think a very key phrase is "When used appropriately."

 

For those who want to sit back and watch what happens when funding is cut:

https://bn.dec.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/lofishboatsurveysummary2024.pdf

Two side notes/questions:

(1) Have any of you guys caught steelheads with lamprey wounds on them?  

(2) Will Lampreys go after Atlantics Salmon? (They both are native to the Atlantic Ocean.)