Prize Money for Pro AM

[Outcast]

Is it me or is it hard to find the prize money information for the pro ams? I'd like to know the take vs. payout if its billed as a community service. Can someone direct me to a site that has that info?

I've searched the Proam official site but can't even find entry cost info, its almost like money isn't mentioned anywhere except for the entry form to fill out.

I know this is hugely popular, but does anyone know anything financial about the events?

Thanks for any info.

[Jeff J]

Outcast,

The payouts change from event to event some because the number of teams changes. We took 6th place at the Niagara event it was worth about $1000.00 in cash and prizes. Maybe someone involved more in the tournaments will chime in here and give you a better answer. The entry fee for AM teams is $265.00 and $105.00 for the challenge cup. Hopes this helps a little.

Jeff

[Outcast]

Outcast,

The payouts change from event to event some because the number of teams changes. We took 6th place at the Niagara event it was worth about $1000.00 in cash and prizes. Maybe someone involved more in the tournaments will chime in here and give you a better answer. The entry fee for AM teams is $265.00 and $105.00 for the challenge cup. Hopes this helps a little.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, was that payoff for a pro or am?

Maybe there are no published payout rules. I don't know. Does everyone just throw their money in with hopes of a decent payout?? I'm not trying to be argumentitive, but I don't understand the system. Just trying to learn.

[motoman]

Payouts are guaranteed! In the event that there is a extremely low entry turnout the tournament committee reserves the right to alter the payouts. If this occurs the tournament committee must give the Captains no less than 7 days notice to what the payouts will be. If at that point in time the captains decides not to participate he will then get 100% of his entry money back.(not including taxes and administration fees).

Main Event

$500 entry

1 - $20,000

2 - $8000

3 - $4000

4 - $3000

5 - $2000

6 - $1,500

7 - $1,000

8 - $1,000

9 - $750

10 - $750

is what is posted on there web site http://www.thekingofthelake.com under rule's but is subject to change if there is a poor turn out with i think a weeks notice or something .

[Chromeslayer]

Payouts are guaranteed! In the event that there is a extremely low entry turnout the tournament committee reserves the right to alter the payouts. If this occurs the tournament committee must give the Captains no less than 7 days notice to what the payouts will be. If at that point in time the captains decides not to participate he will then get 100% of his entry money back.(not including taxes and administration fees).

Main Event

$500 entry

1 - $20,000

2 - $8000

3 - $4000

4 - $3000

5 - $2000

6 - $1,500

7 - $1,000

8 - $1,000

9 - $750

10 - $750

is what is posted on there web site http://www.thekingofthelake.com under rule's but is subject to change if there is a poor turn out with i think a weeks notice or something .

thats the scotty payouts.. not pro am

[A-TOM-MIK]

Just from memory from the Niagara Pro/Am

1st) 9000 Cash

2nd) 4500 Cash

3rd) 4000 Cash

4th) 3500 Cash

5th) 3000 Cash

6th -10th) 2000 Cash

11th - 15th) 1000 Cash

Total cash pay out Pro side $39,000

46 or 47 Pro Teams I believe @ 550 ea.

I didn't catch as much info at Orleans but we took just under 3000 for 3rd

Calcutta's paid 1250 at each event for 3rd

Tom

[motoman]

i thought it was the scottys pro am , so many derby im now lost .

[TOP SECRET]

I know last year at the Wayne pro am captain's meeting they handed out a paper with the payouts. However they drastically lowered some of the amature payouts after the second day of fishing to as I was told "give the pros more as they were complaining". I'd love to hear the story behind that if anyone knows. I don't believe 1st - 3rd were affected.

Nick

[Outcast]

I know last year at the Wayne pro am captain's meeting they handed out a paper with the payouts. However they drastically lowered some of the amature payouts after the second day of fishing to as I was told "give the pros more as they were complaining". I'd love to hear the story behind that if anyone knows. I don't believe 1st - 3rd were affected.

Nick

Thanks Nick,

That is an interesting way of running things. I wonder if there is any structure at all to this.

Every year I make the worst financial decision of the year by dropping my cash into the LOC pocketbooks. I was wondering if the Pro Am was as bad. I gotta figure its not.

I finished in the money in a spring LOC a few years back and and got a check for $20. I think my boat dropped $180 into the pot. There must be several thousand boats in the spring LOC.

I'm thinking next spring, when I get the urge to join the LOC, I'll instead walk into the 7-11 and grab some scratch off tickets. That will be the second worst financial decision I make that year.

Maybe some Pro Am officials can shed some light. Its such a big event, I can't believe there is no structure, I just think its normal and fair to see what the payout structure is. I do find it a little odd that this isn't asked more, it makes me think I'm the only one in the dark.

[TOP SECRET]

Well I believe the LOC is a bit different as that is a private run derby (aka they need to make a profit... probably not big, but a profit none the less).

The reallocation of $$ in Wayne last year just kinda bugged me as one of the teams were good friends of mine. The other thing that bugged me was that they didn't have the rod/reel combos we won until a couple of months after the tournament and poor Rod (Lucky Enuff) had to drive up to the lake because they wouldn't ship them.... that's a five hour drive for him.

The only advice I can give you is to not join the derbies, pro ams, $10 bet with your buddy, in hopes of winning big $$$. Join them for the competition, pride, and glory of picking on your friends.

Nick

[Paul Czarnecki]

I know last year at the Wayne pro am captain's meeting they handed out a paper with the payouts. However they drastically lowered some of the amature payouts after the second day of fishing to as I was told "give the pros more as they were complaining". I'd love to hear the story behind that if anyone knows. I don't believe 1st - 3rd were affected.

Nick

Misinformation hurts these events more than anything one person could ever actually do. What happened in Sodus was the exact same thing that happened in Orleans last year. The payout figures for each tournament are set by the Tournament Directors using a strict set of guidelines that take into account sponsor monies, entry fees and local sponsorships. Of course, local sponsorships vary from tournament to tournament. Payout figures are often not available prior to the event simply because sponsor money is still coming in. In Sodus and Orleans last year a "local official" decided, on his own, to alter the payout numbers after they had already been set by the Tournament Series. He printed a sheet to show "his" payout was the same as the bigger Niagara and Oswego Tournaments. However, because Orleans and Sodus are smaller tournaments (with less entries) they CANNOT have the same payouts as the bigger tournaments. It was caught by some of the veterans and the payout was changed back to what it should have been.

Generally speaking, the payout policy for each tournament is to pay back ALL of the entry fees and ALL of the sponsor monies and sponsor product and as far down as possible. A MINIMUM of 25% of the field must be paid. The same policy is in effect for the Friday events as well. Of course, when you only have 9 Am teams competing it is hard to pay back 10 places with $1000 each.....right?

Here is the actual AM Payout for Niagara:

1st AM - $2500 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 1- Dreamweaver certificate $100, 3 pairs Maui Jim sun glasses $480,

1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – A-Tom-Mik pack $50, 1 – Great Lakes Tackle certificate $50, 1- N.Y. Outdoor News subscriptions $45, 1- Stinger Stingrays certificate $1000, 1- 4C’s Marina certificate $50, 1- Tri State Taxidermy certificate $250, 5 – Blue Lizard Sunscreen (3 0z. tubes) $50.

TOTAL $4652.00

2nd AM - $1750 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 1- Dreamweaver certificate $100, 1 N.Y. Outdoor News subscription $45, 1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – A-Tom-Mik pack $50, 1 – Great Lakes Tackle certificate $50, 1- 4C’s Marina certificate $50, 2 – Fish 307 rod certificates $220, 10 – Blue Lizard Sunscreen samples $20, 1 – Cisco certificate $125, 1 – MOOR unit $450. TOTAL $2,937.00

3rd AM - $1500 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 1- Dreamweaver certificate $100, 1 N.Y. Outdoor News subscription $45, 1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – A-Tom-Mik pack $50, 1 – Great Lakes Tackle certificate $50, 2 – Fish 307 rod certificates $220, 10 – Blue Lizard Sunscreen samples $20, 1 – Raider Spoon pack $250. Total $2312.00

4th AM - $1250 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 1- Dreamweaver certificate $100, 1 N.Y. Outdoor News subscription $45, 1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – A-Tom-Mik pack $50, 1 – Great Lakes Tackle certificate $50, 2 – Fish 307 rod certificates $220, 1 – New York Outdoorsmen Central membership $35. Total $1827.00

5th AM - $1000 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 2- Dreamweaver certificate $200, 1 N.Y. Outdoor News subscription $45, 1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – Great Lakes Tackle certificate $50, 2 – Fish 307 rod certificates $220, 1 – New York Outdoorsmen Central membership $35. Total $1627.00

6th AM - $750 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 2- Dreamweaver certificate $200, 1 N.Y. Outdoor News subscription $45, 1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – Fish 307 rod certificate $110, 1 – New York Outdoorsmen Central membership $35, 1 – Lake Ontario Outdoors gift pack (3 t-shirts and 2 – subscriptions) $75. Total $1292.00

7th AM – $550 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 2- Dreamweaver certificate $200, 1- Great Lakes Angler subscription $22, 1 – Fish 307 rod certificate $110, 1 – Lake Ontario Outdoors gift pack (3 t-shirts and 2 – subscriptions) $75. Total $1012.00

Big Steelhead - $100 cash, 1-dozen NK lures $55, 1 – Fish 307 rod certificate $110. Total $265

TOTAL PAYOUT AM - $15,924

And here is the actual payout for the Orleans Friday event:

38 teams at $100 per boat ($3800):

BIG FISH - 1st $350, 2nd $175, 3rd $100

BEST 3 (25% of the field):

1st - $1000 6th - $220

2nd - $400 7th - $180

3rd - $350 8th - $150

4th - $300 9th - $150

5th - $250 10th - $100

Hope this clears things up for you.

Paul

[TOP SECRET]

Misinformation hurts these events more than anything one person could ever actually do. What happened in Sodus was the exact same thing that happened in Orleans last year. The payout figures for each tournament are set by the Tournament Directors using a strict set of guidelines that take into account sponsor monies, entry fees and local sponsorships. Of course, local sponsorships vary from tournament to tournament. Payout figures are often not available prior to the event simply because sponsor money is still coming in. In Sodus and Orleans last year a "local official" decided, on his own, to alter the payout numbers after they had already been set by the Tournament Series. He printed a sheet to show "his" payout was the same as the bigger Niagara and Oswego Tournaments. However, because Orleans and Sodus are smaller tournaments (with less entries) they CANNOT have the same payouts as the bigger tournaments. It was caught by some of the veterans and the payout was changed back to what it should have been.

Not following you here. Not sure what a "local official" is? Are you trying to say that someone printed out the payouts for the previous pro ams and handed them out at the captains meeting? As far as I'm concerned, the payouts should be available the day after the last day of registration. If further sponsors come forward, the new payouts should be handed out at the captains meeting (but they should never go lower than what the payouts were the day after registration closed). After the captain's meeting, they should NEVER change. It would be like me telling you to go mow my lawn and I'd give you $50 next week. Next week comes and I got laid off so I didn't get paid that week, so I tell you sorry, I'm only going to pay you $25.

I'm sure there is some misunderstanding on the Wayne pro am, but look at it from the angler's perspective... they don't care who's fault it is, just that they feel they got cheated. It left a bitter taste in my mouth, but I'm sure some of those anglers won't be back this year.

Oh and while I'm at it, I never got the outdoor magazine subscription I won and put my mailing address down for either

Nick

[Paul Czarnecki]

That's not what I was saying at all Nick. I'm trying to keep from embarrassing anyone here so I'm not going to divulge the gory details.....sorry. Suffice it to say that Tournament Series policies regarding payouts were not followed INITIALLY in Orleans and Sodus last year. The announced payouts were wrong and simply could not happen. Unfortunately, the erroneous information was leaked to the participants before it could be corrected. When it was corrected back to what it should have been in the first place the conspiracy theorists came out of the woodwork.

I agree with you that the payout figures "should" be available the day after registration closes. However, remember that we are dealing with volunteers here that have other jobs to do and sometimes ProAm stuff has to take a back seat to having dinner with dignitaries, writing articles and columns, hosting TV shows or dealing with irate wives....LOL. Volunteers do what they can when they can.

If YOU would like to volunteer to help please feel free to give Dave Turner or Chris Kenyon a call----I'm sure they could use the help. Serving on one of the ProAm Commitees might also give you a better perspective on just how things are run.

[TOP SECRET]

If I lived closer that might be an option. Not sure how much help I could be down here in Philadelphia though Volunteers or not, they're taking people's money and people will expect professionalism. No need to embarrass the person... the simple "we made a mistake and there isn't that much $ available" would be fine. The only thing I heard from a PRO-AM person at the event though was "there wasn't enough $ available, and we had to pay the PROs first". I think the difference due to the mistake should have been split between pros/ams... maybe it was... but what I was told was it came out of the amature purse.

Nick

[Jeff J]

Paul,

Thanks for chiming in and clarifying the payouts from the last weekend.

Jeff

[Outcast]

Is sounds to me that the payout structure is fair, but I don't understand why this is not advertised. If the idea is to get more fisherman involved, than I would think clarity of the payout would go a long way of getting more teams @ $265 and $550.

I still can't understand how the authority is delegated and how a local can throw a wrench in the payouts. I understand the whole volunteer thing, but there's 30K to 40K on the line. Thats a good bit of cash to have gray rules.

I say post the payout formula on the website and I bet this thing grows more than it has.

People simply don't like volunteering if there is a high risk of disention. I can see both sides.

Lay the money on the table and if it has to be adjusted UP there will be no complaints. Volunteers or not, if the county is going to promote it, they should provide the resources to do it right. They can't act like this is a thorn in their shoe if they really want the tourism in their counties. You can't have it both ways.

[Paul Czarnecki]

If I lived closer that might be an option. Not sure how much help I could be down here in Philadelphia though Volunteers or not, they're taking people's money and people will expect professionalism. No need to embarrass the person... the simple "we made a mistake and there isn't that much $ available" would be fine. The only thing I heard from a PRO-AM person at the event though was "there wasn't enough $ available, and we had to pay the PROs first". I think the difference due to the mistake should have been split between pros/ams... maybe it was... but what I was told was it came out of the amature purse.

Nick

I can assure you, Nick, that the "ProAm Person" who told you that was wrong. NO money has ever been diverted from the Am Division to pay the Pro Division----EVER! If anything, it has been the Pro Division that has helped subsidize the Am Division with product when the Am Division entries are low---as in Orleans and Sodus. The Am Division is paid back EXACTLY what is taken in from entries. If the entries are low so is the cash payback. There is nothing anyone can do about that. Fortunately, in the past several years, the Pro Divisions in all four tournaments have been very strong and so some product was available to bolster the sagging Am payouts. I believe the Am Divisions in both Niagara and Orleans this year recieved over 400% payback!

I'm afraid that's all I can tell you Nick. If you don't like the payouts for the Am Divisions recruit more people to enter so the payouts will increase or move up to the Pro Division.

[GAMBLER]

Outcast,

The payouts change from event to event some because the number of teams changes.

Outcast,

Read the quote from post #2 on this topic (above) again. Payouts change from event to event because of the number of teams that register. They can not post the prize structure until the teams have registered.

[Outcast]

Outcast,

The payouts change from event to event some because the number of teams changes.

Outcast,

Read the quote from post #2 on this topic (above) again. Payouts change from event to event because of the number of teams that register. They can not post the prize structure until the teams have registered.

Uh,,

I read it the first time. And I still say, post the STRUCTURE of the payout. In other words, if 100% of the take gets paid out, why can't those words be posted so we don't require this discussion on a second hand message board? I don't understand why that is so complicated.

IF what Paul says is true, and I'll take him at his word, for now, why can't that information be published by officials of the pro am?

I would think the Pro Am officials would be proud of the fact that 100% of the take goes to the participants, I would be bragging that up EVERYWHERE. Your not going to find that kind of payout structure in any other derby or tournament.

Isn't the idea to get more boats involved so more money is at stake and more poeple show up and more rooms get booked and more slips get rented and more pizza's get sold??

This is frustrating. YES YOU CAN TELL US WHAT THE STRUCTURE IS. We don't need to know the exact dollar amount. We are supposedly smart individuals, we'll figure out what the difference is between structure and dollars.

[Paul Czarnecki]

Is sounds to me that the payout structure is fair, but I don't understand why this is not advertised. If the idea is to get more fisherman involved, than I would think clarity of the payout would go a long way of getting more teams @ $265 and $550.

I still can't understand how the authority is delegated and how a local can throw a wrench in the payouts. I understand the whole volunteer thing, but there's 30K to 40K on the line. Thats a good bit of cash to have gray rules.

I say post the payout formula on the website and I bet this thing grows more than it has.

People simply don't like volunteering if there is a high risk of disention. I can see both sides.

Lay the money on the table and if it has to be adjusted UP there will be no complaints. Volunteers or not, if the county is going to promote it, they should provide the resources to do it right. They can't act like this is a thorn in their shoe if they really want the tourism in their counties. You can't have it both ways.

Twenty years ago when it was just Niagara things were very simple and easy to manage. Throw in Oswego, then Sodus and then Orleans and you have a very complex system that really requires a FULL TIME position to manage properly. Each host port has its own County that it must consult. Each Port and County has its own interests that must be taken into consideration. The finances for each tournament are handled separately because each "host" wants a piece of the pie and credit for bringing the tournament in. County officials frequently use the economic impact of these tournaments as political platforms. There really IS a lot more going on behind the scenes than most people realize.

Outcast your comment about volunteering is lame. Not picking on you personally but not wanting to get involved for fear of disention (sic) is a cop out! If you are passionate about something and want it to succeed you volunteer! Simple as that. Fear of criticism or reprisal or conflict is just an excuse for laziness. Sorry, but that's the bitter truth.

And Nick.....I live in PA too. I have served on the Niagara Committee for 14 years, the Orleans Committee for 5 years and the overall Series Rules Committee for 10 years. Living in PA is not an excuse for not being involved. We have conference call meetings every month!

I hope I've cleared up some misconceptions and misinformation that have been circulating. If you have any other questions or would like to volunteer to help (ahem... ) please feel free to let myself, Bob Cinelli, Bill Hilts, Gene Christopher, Dave Turner or Chris Kenyon know.

Paul

PS.....sorry Outcast we were posting at the same time. The 100% payout has been publicized virtually from the start. Its is NO secret that the ProAms are run by NON PROFIT entities and, as such, cannot make a profit. Posting statements like "100% payback" is really not correct either......the ProAms are usually somewhere around 300-400% payback depending on sponsor support. You're right....NO other tournament or derby on the lake can make that statement. Thanks for the suggestion---perhaps we need to publicize it even more.

[Outcast]

Outcast your comment about volunteering is lame. Not picking on you personally but not wanting to get involved for fear of disention (sic) is a cop out! If you are passionate about something and want it to succeed you volunteer! Simple as that. Fear of criticism or reprisal or conflict is just an excuse for laziness. Sorry, but that's the bitter truth.

And Nick.....I live in PA too. I have served on the Niagara Committee for 14 years, the Orleans Committee for 5 years and the overall Series Rules Committee for 10 years. Living in PA is not an excuse for not being involved. We have conference call meetings every month!

Paul

I appreciate your "inside baseball" aspect of this derby. I think its important to know how these things work. However, simply reading this thread alone would scare most people from volunteering. Here's how volunteering works: if the volunteers stop volunteering, the event will no longer exist. There are factions, as you admit, that profit from this in the form of the economic impact. If the event ends, these factions suffer. These are the people that should have the passion to volunteer. We have the passion to fish, and we will fish regardless of the economic impact of the Pro AM.

I don't think its "lame" at all to expect the folks that profit, to be the most passionate. If I'm to understand correctly, I'm "lame" because I give $265 to a tournament, but won't volunteer to line the coffers of the county politicians and local merchants that need my tourist dollars, that they get, by the way!

I guess we can disagree on the merits of volunteering. If it requires a full time employee to run the Pro Am, then so be it. If the Pro Am can not be run properly and financially feasible, than capitalism has succeeded and the profiteers of tourism have failed.

[TOP SECRET]

Paul,

Sorry if you misunderstood me, but I am in no way complaining about the payback structure. The only thing I am complaining about is the "changing" of the payback after the tournament started... for whatever the reason might be. Oh and the failure to deliver prizes in a timely manner

If you could PM me more info on what "volunteering" means. If there is stuff I can do from here in PA without impacting the little weekend fishing time I get, I might be interested.

Nick

[Outcast]

Paul

Thanks for clarifying the payout structure. It is FAR better than I had expected. After visiting the pro am website, I got curious because there was no mention of money payout. If there was, I simply missed it.

Thanks for your insight, and I’ll give one bit of advice if I can to the officials of the Pro Am. If I was new to fishing and was thinking of sending in my $265, there is no way of knowing how the prizes work. You can’t rely on old school thinking of “everyone knows this is non profit†Not everyone does know that. I didn’t.

[Fishtails]

Let's keep in mind guys that the Pro Am's are "non profit" and run by volunteers, as Paul has already pointed out. They don't really "take our money" Nick. I think it would be better stated to say they accept our entry fees and organize the events. The volunteers do this for no personal or monetary gain, but rather to give us fisherman a fantastic event to participate in and help the community make some revenue off of us participants. The tireless hours these folks put forth every year is very commendable, yet they constantly get verbally bashed. Heaven forbid they make a mistake....or someone doesn't like a rule....omg

The Scotty and LOC are "for-profit" tournaments. The loc payouts beyond grand prize are ridicules, IMHO. Why doesn't this get talked about? Why not spread the money out a little more? We have had a problem with our payment to the Wilson Scotty also....but we don't bring it up here in a public forum. I've heard other stories also, but that stuff happens on large scale events like these. I fish them all, but I personally think the Pro Am's are the best thing going. Are they perfect...no! Neither are the other big name events.

Outcast, most of us want to know what the payout structure is, and yes, it's a little frustrating when we can't find out in a timely manner. However, we also know it's 100% payback PLUS sponsor money (making for over 100%), so whatever comes in is what's going out. Most of us that fish them know and trust that it will be a fair payout.

[TOP SECRET]

Rod,

I honestly think you see more complaining about the Pro Am because people know they will listen. Think of it less as complaining and more as constructive criticism. Perhaps it doesn't come across this way, but I believe we're all just hoping to provide ideas to improve the Pro Am. So far the things I can think of to make it better are:

- Provide payouts at the captains meeting and ensure these aren't lowered through the event.

- Ensure the website states these are 100%+ payback run by a non profit organization

- Ensure all prizes stated as part of the payout at the captains meeting are readily available upon end of tournament

I don't think these ideas would be difficult to implement and would probably go a long ways. I also continue to hear the "short staffed" mentality, but I never see a post on any of the web forums requesting help. If volunteers are needed, post on the forums as I'm sure people would be willing to help.

Nick