Natural salmon?

[Gotta Bite]

I was told some time ago when I first started coming to Lake O to fish that the fall Salmon spawning run was a "false" spawn. Because they do not live the majority of their life in Salt water these fish are just going through the motions. I was just reading Reel Jerks post and he mentioned a "natural" salmon being caught. I understand the rest of the trout species and I believe the Atlantics do have a natural reproduction unless I am wrong about that, too. Just wondering if someone could bring me up to speed on this. Thanks.

[traveling man]

According to the DEC they do have natural reproduction in Lake Ontario.

[ray koziatek]

i belive longline or some other fish guy said about 45% nat reproduction

[blrunner]

All the King Salmon stocked in Lake Ontario on the American and Canadian side in the 2009 and 2008 season had the adipose fin clipped by the Salmon River Hatchery Trailer. So all the shakers that have that adipose fin are natural born.

[Legacy]

The DEC has believed for some time that there was "some" natural reproduction of king salmon in lake ontario after finding proof of it in the salmon river. After paying close attention to it they believe it much higher than anyone could believe but they still had no way to give accurate numbers on it. Like blrunner said all the king salmon stocked in lake ontario are now finned clipped. In time i think the DEC will be able to give us a better assessment of what the numbers really are and it will be something that we all look at when boating kings too.

[LongLine]

There has been some evidence of nat repro for about 7 years now. Both at the S.River and to a lesser extent at the Credit River in Canada. Other rivers & streams are "in theory" too warm or lack flow. The Canadians have said they thought up to 40% were naturals for some years. They've identified something like 6 different gene pools for the fish they've studied. Naturals at the SR have had their ups & downs just like the stocked fish survival rates. It's very difficult to tell a Natural vs a stocked fish. Requires study of the fishes "inerds".

That said. The purpose of the automatic clipping/tagging trailer is to allow the DEC to get a good handle on Nat Repro for all the species. As said all stockers for the last year & 1/2 have been clipped. If you catch a fish less than 18"long and it has an Adipose fin (The fin on it's back near the tail) then it's a natural.

Unfortunately, the AD clip/clipless will not tell us where the fish was naturally produced. Salmon over 12" long are very capable of swiming the length of Big-O with no problem.

I've caught 4 unclipped shakers this year so I have a somewhat positive outlook for the waters of Big-O this year.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[choo-choo]

Tom, I wonder if we would see many more natural fish,if we could limit the amount of wading,and drift boat anchoring, in the prime spawning gravel during and after, the peak of the fall run for salmon, and again in the spring for the steelhead,until all the eggs are hatched.. I shake my head in disbelief when watching those beautiful fish ,digging the gravel ,laying the eggs,with the males right there fertilizing them,then 3 clowns go wading right through the gravel, ,trashing the redds(nests) and destroying those fertilized eggs!!! I think we should at least give them a chance. steve

[Gotta Bite]

I tend to agree with Choo Choos statement about limiting access to some area if we are getting a natural reproduction in these particular tributaries. Make some of the areas like they have in Altmar off limits to keeping fish catch and release only. That's if they make it up river that far. I did the river fishing thing for salmon and it's not my cup of tea. I'll stick with the lake fishing for a bunch of reasons. One being it's too crowded and a fair amount of outlaws snagging and dragging fish regardless of the regs. Just my 2 cents and that won't get you anything these days. I am looking forward to fishing this weekend and I'll be on the look out for the AD fin. One more question is that AD fin clipped only on the salmon or trout don't have them?

[stan]

We have the same out west here, fish and game stock many lakes out here with Kings,

Sockeye . For some reason they call sockeye Kokanee out here not sure why. I have a good friend who is a fishery biologist, that has been trying to figure out what percent find there way to spawning grounds. They do clip the fin at the hatchery out here. Monty says it's a long day when they start clipping fins. The Sockeye in many of our lakes have found themselves spawning grounds. But now there size is a lot smaller in these lakes now due to competition for food. A couple of lakes here even the Kings have, but not in the numbers they hoped for. The rivers and ocean if you catch a salmon with out a clipped fin must be released unharmed back to the water.

[LongLine]

I am under the impression that everything stocked is clipped. The trailer did go to Canadian hatcheries for a few days & clipped their fish. However I don't think the Canadian Atlantics were adipose clipped, but am not sure.

Stan - That's why NYS bought this trailer with automatic clipping aparatus. To many man hours to clip a couple million fish. Very impressive rig. It individually photographs & rejects any unclipped fish which then get manual clipping.

The problem with research projects is that whenever one question is answered then 3 or 4 more questions pop up. The trailer clippings purpose is to help determine the degree of Nat Repo. IE how much of it is happening. DEC knows that it's happening on the SR & Credit Rivs, but doesn't know what percentage the naturals make up in the returns to the SR every year. This should be a fairly quick way for them to find out. (but it'll have to be watched for a few years as it could be up one yr & down the next) I'm hoping it's happening on other rivers & creeks but there is no proof. The tagging is basically to find out about Laker returns to the Niagara River area.

As to closing any area, I don't see how this project, by itself could possibly yield that result. I agree with a dislike for the snaggers, draggers & other morons on the spawning beds but for now we have to depend upon C.O.s and sportsmen with phones that report violators.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[stan]

Tom they run them through a machine out here as well, But there running a few million fish for the rivers , ocean and lakes.

Our salmon fishery is in a hurt out here in places, they say there thinking of opening the season next year depending on the fall run. Everyone is pointing fingers at each other and not getting to the root of the real problem

[GAMBLER]

Stan,

Check out this site. This is a real eye opener about BC's salmon problem.

[rail bird]

While natural reproduction may seem like a good thing it can also cause problems. It maybe one of the many issues that caused a collapse in Lake Huron. This is a good write up as to what is going on over there.

http://www.greatnorthernoutdoors.net/s-lakehuron1.htm

[Tim Bromund]

At the present time they are only adipose clipping kings in Lake Ontario. The other species may be clipped down the line, but for right now it is kings only.

Tim

[923julia]

Where is it ?

How about this one ?

http://www.madnike.com

[stan]

Hey guys thanks for the links, I forward them onto my friend Monty. The great lakes steelheaders also sent out reams of information that I passed on as well. Again than you. The only one I did not for ward is the shoe link by 923julia

[YodaMage]

It really makes you wonder the more and more you read about what the future holds as well as the course things should take. Are pen projects such as those promoted and worked by members here a good course of action? Is Ontario going to follow the course of Michigan and Huron? Will the Zebra muscles have a similar effect? Why wouldn't they? What happens to Ontario without Alewives? Should Lake Herring be the primary focus of efforts in Ontario sooner rather than later?

[LongLine]

YM

Good questions to ponder. Not to say we don't have probems, but IMHO -

Pen projects are a great thing. I don't believe Ontario is following the same path as Mich & Huron. Big-O is a different ecosystem. Fisheries managed by a different crew that saw what was happening in Huron & cut back stocking when they saw problems out west. Big-O is more in preyfish-predator balance than ever before. Constant vigilance is key - On DEC & all fishermen's part. (If you see something out of the ordinary - report it!) Effect of mussles is not good anywhere. (Quagga more so than Zebras). The good news as I see it: Alewive population did take an upswing in last 2 yrs. Alewives are eating the red shrimp & fleas. Bass & others are eating gobies. Ontario fish are still bigger than Mich. Kings seem bigger than last year. Some Naturals are being caught. Lakers being caught are "huge". More Atlantics being caught. Freighters are now being inspected & regulated more.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[ladyblugill]

thank god something is eating the fleas. the lakers are probably huge because they are the only thing eating the gobies. from what i remember the lake o. program began as an offshoot of the michigan program which has been mentioned as gone downhill as far as size. also from what i remember the salmon were also reared at the caledonia hatchery and the largest realeases were at the oak and genny and the tribs between them.the oak use to be the hot spot to go in the fall and anyone that was around back then will remember that is where most of those 40lb. monsters were caught.then the program moved east and the altmar facility was built.probably has nothing to do with the downsiizing of the salmon since it already was happening in michigan as well.hopefully our dollars spent on the fishery will be utilized wisely whether it's to the east or the west and we can maintain what we got which is still very good.

[Alphena diamond]

I went to SUNY esf from 2000-2004, took ichtheology class. There has been natural reproduction in Lake Ontario for a lot longer than anyone knows. Back in 2002 when I took the class we went out in six groups of four, each with a shoking unit that incapacitates fish within a cubic yard and we shocked the life out of the salmon river from the Rt 3 bridge north and we found hundreds of salmon fry in one afternoon. That being said don't believe everything you hear or read.

[Gotta Bite]

So you are sayimg that there is a strong natural reproduction of pacific salmon as opposed to what people and some books have stated in the past? That's great and I hope it is. Just want to put the myth or rumor to rest.

[LongLine]

GB - That's the purpose of the fin clipping that the DEC has been doing. I.E. To get a handle on the degreee of Natural Repo. I'm afraid we're going to have to wait until they have more data.

What is known is that since it was discovered on the SR, there have been some good yrs for Nat Repro & some bad.

We all want to know for sure.

Tom B.

(LongLine)