no deer in ny

[Gator]

Good point about the deer-car accidents...if coyotes are pressuring deer toward more suburban settings, then the # of accidents is likely to rise, even if the # of deer is stable or even declining. Personally, where we hunt in Orleans county I've only seen a couple of dogs over the years (shot one with a bow in '07), so I guess we have to be thankful. It sounds like other parts of the state are getting snookered.

Does anyone have any hard data on how coyote #s influence the size of the herd? I'm not arguing that there isn't an impact, I'm just wondering how big it is. We always use coyotes to explain the lack of deer and I'd hate for this tendency to mask a broader problem.

Also, there's an interesting report on empirehunting.com posted by Deer Search, Inc. on bow and gun hunter sightings logs from 1998-2008. It's broken down by region and contains some great statistics. Take a look.

Gator

[ray koziatek]

Gator ,no hard data fro me other than what me eyes see, (tracks,gut piles cleaned up in 24 hrs not just the good parts gone EVERYTHING GONE) dogs a smart and nocternal yes there seen in the daytime but usually by accident in 40 years ive seen 4 or 5 in the woods and that was due to drives(deer) the one that was not due to a drive jumped up less than 10 ft from me as i was walking up a blowdown to have a look around,so they hold pretty tight to say the least. For some of you newer (younger) guys let a 40 vet tell ya how it was back when in the 70 S,,even in my youthful sloppy hunting methoud it was never less than a 20 deer a day sightings ,course that too was back in the day when 95 % of the land wasnt posted.... another spot we hunt and i dont exagerate 1 bit it was normal to see hurds of 20 moving togeather all ya had to do was pick out the bucks....in the last 5 years ive had days still hunting the same600 acres without a sightings... Im fortunate to have the land to hunt i do and the time to hunt (4 me thier is (2)seasons not 4 ...hunting ,and fishing)...Bottom line I LOVE MY TIME IN THE WOODS (and on the water), Even if the Deer arnt there I will BE...BUT IVE HEARD RUMERS THAT COYFISH HAVE BEEN SEEN IN ONTARIO!

[Paul Czarnecki]

I think the effect coyotes have on deer populations is GREATLY overestimated by eastern hunters. Coyotes will certainly take fawns and perhaps an injured adult now and then. And they certainly do a good job of cleaning up gut piles. However, a coyote is FAR too efficient a predator to waste its time and energy trying to bring down a healthy deer---especially when there are plenty of mice, squirrels and wood chucks around. If coyotes killed as many deer as you guys are thinking they do Kansas, Illinois and Indiana would have absolutely NO deer because they are simply covered up with yotes. I've hunted all 3 of those states for nearly 15 years and can honestly say I will see more coyotes in ONE DAY in Kansas, Illinois or Indiana than I will in an entire season in NY and PA combined. I've watched packs of coyotes chasing deer in those states and the deer seem to enjoy it. They bounce ahead of the coyotes and wait for them to catch up and then continue on. Its like its a game for both. NOW.....I imagine if one of those deer appeared injured or couldn't keep up the coyotes would get serious but a healthy deer is simply too much hassle for a coyote to attempt to kill---especially when easier-to-obtain foods are readily available.

As many of you know I have been a professional taxidermist for over 30 years. In my career I have established many contacts in the industry all over the country and I keep in touch with those taxidermists on a monthly basis. The "problems" NY and PA is having with its deer herds is nothing new and certainly not confined to just NY and PA. This year especially, the deer kill has been off in the entire country---certainly every state east of Wichita KS has had a less than stellar season. All states seem to be showing declining deer populations and in all the states the hunters are blaming the same things---

--too many doe tags

--coyotes

--DEC/DNR stocking mountain lions

NO ONE seems to want to look at other factors like weather or fawn mortality. No one ever mentions the possibility of a widespread disease that we don't know about.

What I'm trying to say guys is, the "deer problem" is not unique to NY and PA and its not caused solely by coyotes or mountain lions or big foots. The problem is far more widespread than any of you realize and I'm sure its far more complex as well.

Just my opinion based on 32 yaars of working with both hunters and deer!

Have a good Christmas everybody!

[on the lam]

This is an interesting read. all the opinions are valid IMO. I mentioned earlier that NJ has a pretty stable herd, and for the last 30 years the take had stayed pretty steady even though license sales are down over 50%. I will say one thing regarding coyotes. We have very few in the state, and they are mostly confined to north jersey, but for the people that i know who have an abundance of yotes on there property (dens), they have both said the same thing, since the yotes showed up the herd is down. There was a noticable lack of fawns almost immeditely the next bow season. The same guy on the same property told me yesterday that his group of hunters had their worst season ever this year with lack of numbers the main concern. The yotes arrived in the area about 4 years ago. And this area is some of the best deer area in the entire state (hunderton county). I don't know if they are the sole problem, but there is no winter kill here, and this is very strictly enforced private property of about 100 acres.

[chowder]

Paul, thanks for you're post! For many years I have guided hunters informally as a service for my landlords when they bring up guests and I find most people quite misinformed about coyotes and their role in the ecosystem especially w/ respect to deer population dynamics. In this area I firmly believe the greatest factor influencing the average hunter's "perception" of the deer population is the constantly changing pattern of hunting pressure w/ respect to very specific parts of an area's geography. I find that most hunters greatly underestimate a Whitetail's ability to adapt, survive and actually thrive amidst hunters.For better or worse they don't do quite as well against cars.

[Paul Czarnecki]

Paul, thanks for you're post! For many years I have guided hunters informally as a service for my landlords when they bring up guests and I find most people quite misinformed about coyotes and their role in the ecosystem especially w/ respect to deer population dynamics. In this area I firmly believe the greatest factor influencing the average hunter's "perception" of the deer population is the constantly changing pattern of hunting pressure w/ respect to very specific parts of an area's geography. I find that most hunters greatly underestimate a Whitetail's ability to adapt, survive and actually thrive amidst hunters.For better or worse they don't do quite as well against cars.

Coyotes certainly have a role in any ecosystem they inhabit. They are a predator--that's what they do! And they are here to stay--get over it. And NO...they weren't stocked.

Chowder I fully agree that its the HUNTERS that are the biggest problem today. An inherent unwillingness to adapt coupled with gross laziness (in some cases) and a deer population that is constantly adapting in an environment that is constantly changing is the biggest reason we hear these rumors of "no deer" or "few deer". The deer are still there---some hunters just don't see them because of the rose bushes, flower beds and swing sets that hide them. Hunters leave their homes to go into the deep woods to look for deer and they walk past a dozen in their own backyard. I know, I've done it!

That said, one only needs to look at the stats on road kills to see if there are deer in an area. Like Chowder said....its amazing how a deer that is so adept at avoiding hunters can fail to see a car or truck coming down the road with its lights on and horn blowin'! (Thanks Ron White )

[W.W.IV.]

Look like we'll have to wait till the DEC. comes out with the total kills for the season and compare it with the last few years. In the mean time lets go hunt Yots.

[mrhappy]

Holy Crap - Thanks Paul for some very good points! I remember back in 2007 we as a group had a similiar thread going regarding the "lack of deer". I have been watching this thread for quite a while and FINALLY a sensable post, Paul makes great points! I have hunted the states he listed excluding Indiana, however, you can add South Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin, Montana and Iowa. All which have Yotes, Bears, Mtn Lion and the ever elusive Big Feets and I managed to see deer, sometimes more than others. Some of the trips I did come home with tag soup which was mainly my fault as I may have been to selective as to what I wanted to shoot or another factor played into the game .

Anyway, I continue to get "frustrated" with all the banter regarding the predators and cars killing all of our deer! If I recall correctly; back in 2007's thread one person (no offense I should add) stated that CARS are killing more deer than the hunters in the state.

C' mon guys.... all of the "doe management" that is taking place with so many on their 55 acres of timbered woodlots is out of control. As I stated many, many times I am not against selective management techniques as I will harvest a doe or two if necessary every year on our property (1200 +++ contiguous of closely managed acres ). Fortunately we and our neighbors have been "on the same page" for a number of years and plenty of dialog takes place each season as to what is being harvested. We also have 100s of acres enrolled in the federal WHIP program and have palnted various warm season and native grasses for bedding and cover and I should add that we plant food/crops every year, and leave them up all year rotating through our available tillable ground. I"LL touch on that at the end of this post.

Based on what I am reading here many of you are hunting in DMU areas with HIGH probability of second permit opportunities...... Hmmmm???? "No deer" and thousands of guys walking around with multiple permits in hand "managing the herd". If the DEC is not going to take a realistic look at NYS specific population levels and "problems" then perhaps WE as hunters should make a realistic attempt to do the right thing when the time comes to pull the trigger.

My last point that I have been squaking about for years that may be un-popular with the "farmers" but needs to be addressed is NP's. Read the thread from 2007 for details.... IF a farmer can PROVE that there is enough crop damage from DEER specifficaly and not a combination of the over abuntant coon, and some bear damage to warrant these licenses to kill they MUST allow/permit public hunting on their lands in order to procure them! This would eliminate the problem quickly and effectively so they can get back to higher yields and making money! Merry Christmas..........

[on the lam]

An interesting thing I could add from NJ hunting. It has to do with the ability to legally bait, and the use of trail cams. I among other friends bait a certain spot religiously from august right through the season. in August and Sept. you will quickly identify the herd in that area and I D the bucks as well on the bait pile. In my case I was able to account for about 15 different bucks on my bait pile, and would check the cam once a week. Early in the season these bucks would show themselves in the daylight, young bucks more but even the 2 and 3 year olds at times. after a couple weeks of hunting pressure (minimal) the camera tells the story. those same bucks are there but primarily at night, and the mature bucks only after dark. Then when the rut kicks in heavy the bucks seem to disappear all together off the camera (they stop eating I guess) but that is when the bigger bucks are chasing 24/7 and i will see them in daylight.. But for every day I hunt and not observe the bucks during daylight, the bait/camera tells a different story at night. I guess what that means is an educated deer is a hard deer to hunt. If i didnt have bait and a camera, I would swear some days there were no deer at all.

They are a great challenge to hunt, and I guess thats the reason why we do it.

[Reel Doc]

On the lam, Chowder, AMEN. Deer are not stupid. They do not want to get shot It can really ruin their day.

Just because you do not see deer where you have hunted for years, does not mean they are not still there. Hunting pressure and annual take in each 5 square mile area will vary numbers slightly each year but, if Mr and Mrs deer survive this year, they are going to know how to live and be wise next year. AND, those momma does we talked about earlier this Fall in this forum can be really tough to get, and oh by the way, they teach their kids. I hunt an 88 acre parcel that borders land that a crop farmer rents out to a hunting club. It also runs up to the backyards of homes on route 89 along the West side of Cayuga lake. Even though it is a small parcel to hunt, and even though the general flow of the deer is the same, they still mix it up just enough every year to give me some surprises. The one thing that is consistent every year are the sightings and tracks in the snow of animals running those residential backyards. Our home and barn at the other end of the parcel also gets its share of deer sightings and tracks, sometimes within feet of fencelines that our livestock guard dogs patrol. When gun season kicks in and the hunting club starts driving the woods, the deer hole up in safe havens. The deer inhabit an area 365 a year, while most hunters only invade parts of 10-15 of those days. Give them credit, the survivors are smarter than the wallhangers, and they'll be ready to outsmart you again next year.

Happy Holidays to you all, and thanks again to all contributors who helped get my fishing program revived this year.

Greg

[kingslamon22]

why waste your breath. any good hunter knows deer can avoid hunting pressure regardless of time spent. i hunted more this year than ever and i did not even shoot a buck at all. seen alot of deer just none offerd themselves up. and like the good hunters have seen, i also have noticed deer tracks up to the bird feeder in recent years. and as far as walking passed all the deer to get to deer, ha ha im notorious for that. only seen one coyote all year this year. killed more coyotes deer hunting last year than i ever seen. there is enough old guys hunting on this site to back me up here, all my father and his party said is there is more deer now than there ever was and there is nothing dwindling there numbers. as for ny not having good enough habitat and gene pool for big racks, VERY wrong. selective harvest. period

[GAMBLER]

No Deer in NY????? I had a beautiful 8pt and 4 doe in my back yard for the past 3 nights. 1st year I have ever seen deer in my back yard in 5 years of living in this house. By the tracks I saw at my dads (E. Bloomfield) during deer season, I would say there is nothing wrong with the deer population. We also saw a lot of Coyote tracks.

[Woody5442]

Ok from what Im gathering from reading some of the posts most of the people that are hunting are not hunting in the apple orchards here in Wayne County. I stopped hunting here in Walworth about 4 yrs ago due to the fact that the Apple farmer across the street shoots deer all summer long and then takes the deer down to the corner of the apple field and burns them..Now I have asked to hunt on his land and he has told me no on a couple occations that I have asked. I have talked to the DEC and they have told me that what he is doing is totally legal and it pisses me off to no end because there are truely very few deer here... So I can see his point. I now go down to my parents house were I grew up in Stueben County around Wayland and Dansville. Down there I saw 35 deer opening day and shot a 125 Lb doe. Saw two big bucks fighting out in a field and had a great time. My next door neighbor has 100 acres and he saw one yearling all bow season and (1) 4 point that he shot and 2 doe all gun season. Now thats just one farmer just think what all the other farmers are doing. I do not agree with this Nucence(sp) permits that the DEC are giving out there shoud be a stipulation on the permits that state that if you dont let ppl hunt on your land then you loose them. But that is just my two cents

[tobykoko]

Gentleman : If any of you had gone to the Gander Mt. seminar last Sat on Coyotes, you would have heard that they believe that there is as much as 30 to 60% of deer fawns are killed by coyotes, and in fact they've examined carcasses of a once healthy deer, that were killed by coyotes. I personally have seen way too many in the Macedon area. I have numerous pictures of them on my trail cameras.

[on the lam]

Gentleman : If any of you had gone to the Gander Mt. seminar last Sat on Coyotes, you would have heard that they believe that there is as much as 30 to 60% of deer fawns are killed by coyotes, and in fact they've examined carcasses of a once healthy deer, that were killed by coyotes. I personally have seen way too many in the Macedon area. I have numerous pictures of them on my trail cameras.

Who gave the seminar, just curious...

[chowder]

12 years hunting yotes w/ guy who is a hard core predator hunter, 25 years serious deer and turkey hunting, 20 years moving cows & heifer fences every day am and pm from April to Nov., 20 years of winter time wood lot and timber management, all in areas w/ a significant coyote population and I have never seen any evidence of a mature deer that was in any way killed by yotes. Of course all this may mean nothing and Big Foot might be in my woods too.

P.S. I have tracked down many gut shot deer that have been scavenged by yotes, but I have recovered far more that were not. I have come across many dead deer on my property boundaries that obviously died from marginal shots made by others.

P.S.S. As for all this self righteous pap about nuisance permits- let me give you the farmer's perspective; I work 365 days a year feeding you guys, paying giant tax bills and in general getting paid very poorly to grow huge amounts of wildlife that would not be there without my efforts. Now I do not get NPs for the home farm but if I did I'd say that unless you are going to help pay the tax bill or insure a better rate of return on my very hard earned investments that you be grateful for all the deer and turkeys I grow that go out and get killed by you and not worry too much about the ones that get killed by me!

[momay4000]

Here's an interesting article r/e coyotes.

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=59

Personally, I agree with Chowder and Paul C. and I don't think they have an impact on the deer population that people think. There's no way coyotes are responsible for 30-60% of fawn death. If that was indeed the case, statistically the deer population would be extinct in a few years.

After seeing 40-45 deer opening weekend alone of gun season and our small hunting party harvesting two trophy 10 points, two huge doe and a button buck in Darien, NY in only a few days, I'm convinced the deer population is strong. That being said I didn't see many deer during bow season on a different property I own in Wolcott, but my trail cams were absolutely loaded with pics of deer at night. Then again, EVERY DAY and NIGHT I have 4-12 deer in my back yard here in Ontario. Rain or shine and even during the 50 mph wind storm a few weeks ago I have deer. This includes several trophy class 8 points and several sparring smaller bucks.

Consequently, I feel it's more about deer adaptabilty to hunter pressure, food sources, etc. rather than the absolute quantity of deer dwindling b/c of predator death, nuisance permits, etc.

I saw more deer than ever this year but we hunted our Darien property different b/c of new crop sources planted in neighboring properties. We hunted different areas of the property - different routes the deer were taking to these new food plots, different "funnels", different rub lines from year's past, etc. We also stayed on stand between 10 AM and 2 PM and one of the large bucks and one doe was shot during this time. When we looked for tracks or other evidence of deer activity in some of our traditional stand or ground blind areas that we hunted the last three years, there was very little if any sign of deer.

Maybe I'm wrong and the DEC will provide statistical data this year which supports a dwindling deer population, but I think it's more of deer adaptablity based on seeking out food and security.

Just my $0.02

- Chris

[ray koziatek]

nice report it definatly supports the effect of dogs in the northern area where we live,throw in the increased hunting of dogs and they reproduce more which is a common knowlage among hunters,at least the ones i know. I think we are seing the high dog to deer ratio also the dogs have really taken off on the recently loged land(4) yrs ago.with all the tops blocking the deers natural trails and escape routs and logging roads offering easier traveling for deer make great ambuse situations for the dogs. from someone who literally wears out a pair of brand new boots per season .i dont need any outside information to tell me what i know is fact,i might not see the dogs every day or year but can take you to several "ambush places along loggin trails" and maybe thats part of the isolated area problems due to steep hills and freshly logged woods...also that report was done in the early 90,s dogs too over the years have learned to adapt,thruogh hunting pressure "increased litter size" and just plane ol changing with the deer movement. after reading this post a week ago ive looked at the "lost" section of our local paper 5 different non hunting breed dogs have been listed as missing also in the 90s around here talk of coyots was almost non exisent with ocasoinal "coydog" sightins being reported,and you would have to look high and low to find a store that sold any type of dog preditor calls almost all were for fox.i still have a 45rpm record of injured rabbits we used before the invention of the cassette tapes . and never saw 1 dog bouncing in to the scratcy call with the foxes................ but i ant got no collage edgabucation to proove what i see...

[alloutdoorsman]

Well Ray, for once I agree with you!!!!!!!!! Anyone that thinks coyotes dont have an effect on deer populations should come to upstate NY around Pulaski area and north! I hunt the adirondacks area and have seen coyotes track down post rut bucks in the snow and take them down! Dont tell me these damn coyotes dont have an impact!!!!!!!

[momay4000]

Now that my kids are burned out and quieted down from opening Christmas gifts, I needed a little time to relax and hit the LOU site....

Here's more data to support good deer herd numbers - the harvest over the past few years has actually increased while the number of hunting licenses has remained steady or actually decreased (the huge jump last year was from the rush on lifetime licenses)

Licenses:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

Harvest data (2006/2007):

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/42292.html

Harvest data (2007/2008):

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/52340.html

I'm not saying that coyotes don't play a role in affecting the deer herd, I'm just not convinced it's the main reason people aren't seeing deer like "they used to". My other theory is maybe they actually can HELP the deer population by selecting out and killing the weakest fawns and adult deer.......good ol' Darwin....

Merry Christmas to all!

- Chris

[Fish Junkie]

Regarding Coyotes:

A college collegue of mine recently discovered through DNA tests that the 'yotes in our state are actually coyote and wolve hybrids more adapted to our environment than coyotes or wolves alone. This includes having a diet of deer as stated in the article. He is the currator of mammals at the NYS Museum in Albany and does extensive field research of mammals of all species. Below is an article from this fall summarizing his findings. If there are any rumors regarding, coyotes, moutnain lions, etc. you want me to ask him about, let me know and I will try to get in touch with him.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=wylie-coywolf-the-coyote-wolf-hybri-2009-09-23

Sep 23, 2009 06:52 PM in Basic Science | 24 comments

Wylie Coywolf: The coyote-wolf hybrid has made its way to the Northeast

By Carina Storrs

Bigger than coyotes but smaller than wolves, their howl is high-pitched and their diet includes deer and small rodents. They are "coywolves" (pronounced "coy," as in playful, "wolves"), and they are flourishing in the northeastern U.S., according to a study published today in Biology Letters.

Although coyote–wolf breeding has been reported in Ontario, where coyotes started migrating from the Great Plains in the 1920s, this study provides the first evidence of coywolves—also known as coydogs or eastern coyotes—in the Northeast. And even though they are more coyote (Canis latrans) than wolf (gray wolves are Canis lupus, and red wolves are Canis rufus), the expansion of these hybrids into western New York State marks the return of wolves to the Empire State.

"It's kind of interesting that we drove this species from the area and it sort of came back in another form," says Roland Kays, curator of mammals at the New York State Museum in Albany and first author on the study.

To get a sense of the pedigree of coyotes in the area, Kays and his colleagues examined the genetic material from samples—mostly tissue, hides and skulls—that museums had archived. The source of these samples was itself a sign of the coywolves' success. As Kays points out, specimens came from hunters who killed the dogs in an effort to stem the growing population. Based on the genetic analyses, the team concluded that mating between female coyotes and male wolves was abundant. The researchers also noted that the coywolves have larger, stronger jaws and bigger skulls overall than the so-called straight western coyotes.

Although hybrids are typically less fit than straight species, the story of coywolves in the Northeast might be one of success. Their strong jaws will enable them to eat the deer that are abundant in the area, while the coyote-like ability to coexist with humans could be an advantage that wolves lack. "Wolves have not made a comeback on their own in the area because they can't deal with human development," Kays says. "In this case, the hybrid has become more adapted."

Another advantage of coyotes and wolves mating is that, unlike many interspecies relationships, their offspring are fertile. Kays points out that it is common for members of the genus, Canis, including coyotes, wolves, and dogs, to "hybridize quite readily." Take that, liger.

Images of coywolves courtesy of Roland Kays at the New York State Museum

[on the lam]

I'm sure most of the NY guys have seen this. Supposed to have been shot in the town of Hilton(?) in 05'. 115lbs. apparently the state record. sure looks half wolf as stated above. I cannot confirm any of the info, found it by accident.

[ray koziatek]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/47738.html actual deer taken are different from calcuated reports sorta like global warming..

[kingslamon22]

beatin the dead deer here guys.

[ray koziatek]

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/galle ... ler-coyote