Continued support for No Communication East end Pro/Am's

[A-TOM-MIK]

Attempted progress has started to roll again in following our original "No Communication" post from a few months back:

I have created a Facebook Group in support of "No Communication" East end events

I can see the interest and input becoming heated so to say, I would hope we could interpret our strong feelings into generally mannered input

Check it out:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?filter ... 438&ref=nf

or search

No Communication East End Pro/Am's 2010

I will follow up shortly with exactly where we stand in our attempt to date

Tom

[A-TOM-MIK]

Update:

This is a copy and paste from my T-Shirt thread

The 1st 144 shirts have been shipped, no certain order so bare with me, only several gross left to go guys, he he he

I was thinking of a 2nd run of shirts, sort of over-kill and only a thought at this point, plus I may go broke doing so

But I was thinking of adding "Lets go No Communication Pro/Ams" across the back ??

Any thoughts ???? Only an idea as the chances of me winning this race is ever-so slim

I may pull out of my future sponsorships to the Pro/Ams and just buy these few hundred shirts as a reminder

Responses, E Mails and PM's welcome fellow anglers, or simply respond here

If I would have thought in time I would of already had close to 500 shirts on their way, I didn't think fast enough

As I lose the race it would of been a constant reminder where the hearts of the over-whelming majority stand !!

If this is something I carry out these shirts will be free to all that received a shirt for my A-TOM-MIK deal going on, this upon request

(Upon request so I don't give shirts away to the 3% of anglers who are against closed communication, lmao)

I figure the several grand I offer up to the Pro/Am's would be much more appreciated going to those who have followed me through my chase

Tom

[ray koziatek]

how about on the back "Have You Checked Your Fly Lately" "sometimes smaller flys have bigger results" " you rig your fly and ill rig mine" ok its a easy one to make fun remarks about ..."reel plumbers use flys" (sorry del),"cant gey your fly up no problem with atomic"...................toss in some custom names and your shirts will be flying off the shelfs just for the sayings on the back ,am i gonna have to make a list???

I GOT it ...............IF YOUR FLY IS DOWN THEN YOU DID YOUR PART AS A REEL fisherMAN

"with a pic of a salmon with a fly in its mouth"

[A-TOM-MIK]

Not really a joking matter Ray

I do applaud your energy, but our goal is to bring the constant awareness to the committee that there is a majority of teams who are being taken for granted

The coordination must honestly feel we will always be here, no matter how we are treated

Taking longtime sponsors and players for granted will only take away from the hard work that is actually being done by coordination

Tom

[A-TOM-MIK]

Guess we were on the same page Rod

A lot rested on the input I confronted Dave with over gathered evidence and input from well over 30 valid teams over the course of a measurable amount of time

I cant say that I have given up yet, but for the over-whelming majority to be handed a blind side look is unfortunate.

Simply stated the committee would let sponsors like Pete Alex (Alex Roofing), Dreamweaver and A-TOM-MIK walk away and fade into the dusk, this to continue the honor of what 1 man wants and a few of his friends.

Much confidence has been yielded upon me so I can't throw certain names around, but behind the back of the strangle-hold coordination most can't understand either why communication continues to be open. I heard an awful lot of, "If it were up to me...... " lol

As Rod said the work behind the scenes is a measurable task that us players DO NO take for granted, to be taken for granted in return is sad.

These Pro/Am's are a great draw to many variables, looked forward to and expected to always be here, I personally would only be hurting them if a few of our sponsorship friends were to withdraw. I know I sleep good at night with decisions I make on a daily basis, I am not so sure others can say the same.

I respect the commitment of other sponsorships to the Pro/Am's and wouldn't lower myself to prompt a withdraw action, thus only hurting the Pro/Am's in the short-term. We have lost players in our Oswego area due to unification, especially opening communication, players we will never get back, we will also more as time passes by unfortunately. To feel un-appreciated as a player and to bail will most times over-rule the draw for continued participation, this is where some stand in Oswego.

Tom

[Shade]

Rob and Tom,

Please do not read anything in this but I can not see how the Pro/Am can be titled the best event on this lake. I have only been apart of thr Pro/Am for 4 years and in each of these years there seems to be very vocal and high profile rule change request. In 4 years the rule on how and how many fish you put in the box has changed. Last year the observer was the hot topic. This year it looks like the communications will draw #1 followed by Amature starting time then recovering the Amature lost 1/2 hour of fishing time. The other thing I question is as the tournament goes up the lake it seems to draw less and less participants especially in the Amature division. I hear little if any contraversy with the Scotty, LOC, weekly Olcott or the Salmon Derby(out of the Oak). These events seem to run rather smoothly. This is no attack on any individuals on the Pro/Am committees, I think they do a fine job. The puzziling part, these rules have been changed several times. When I entered it was the best 6 fish, changed to the first 6 fish, back to the best 6 fish I think. Started with No communications, changed to allow communications and now ya want to go back to No Communications.

I truly support the No Communication proposal as well as the AM.s starting time and restore the 8 hours of fishing time. My team both fished the Pro/Am and were Observers and I do not think it is fair play to allow communications on where the fish are(including GPS coordinates), lures to use, speed and trolling direction. I can see telling your buddy that you are at the Bar, Micro Towers and using flies or lures in, lets say, 50 over 90. The fun when entering a tournement is using your skills by putting a program together and seeing it become successful. Having someone telling where to fish, what to use and how to fish can not be very fulfilling especially when its a Pro telling an Amature seems unfair.

Just my opinion guys. Do not beat me to bad .

Tom,

Did you get my email on fly's?

Howie

[jason]

i like the no Communication rule.

[A-TOM-MIK]

Howie

Just to clarify much of what I have mentioned before

Oswego has shouldered the hit for the unification of rules suggested and interpreted through west end coordination

Oswego has never wanted open communication from the beginning, we were never given a choice or a say, never even offered a sniff of suggestion concerned with such

It was forced upon us overnight and was left for us to deal with, after no communication from inception, this with us left picking up the scraps from our event, following only to those teams who were willing to "simply fish these events no matter how being taken for granted" other teams packed their bags and left, this after many years of following to the Oswego Pro/Am

I do agree with other comments you have to say Howie.

The KOTL is what it is and is a much different type of format/tourney

Personally speaking I like the variations offered from other type events, KOTL, the LOC etc.

My only concern is with communication, I am sure many others disagree, the burden on coordination can be intense at times, often dealing with a 50/50 in difference of opinions, closed communication has never been any thing other than that of an over-whelming majority vote, held back by the minority vote, and I do mean minority

Closed communication would be welcomed by a huge majority, if not I would have never opted the A-TOM-MIK name be put on the line for reversal of this single rule.

I am unsure of your E Mail, I apologize, please drop me another and I will take care of you

Tom

[Gill-T]

Since the majority of teams prefers "no communication", I would be interested to hear what key arguements are being cited as the reasons for "PRO open communication". I will never make the jump to the pro-side until the communication rule is changed to CLOSED. Until that time, I will gladly play with the amateurs. I still love the events.

[spoonfed-1]

It is my understanding that the rule was originally changed becuse it was to easy to cheat with todays technology.

Personaly I am against the open comunication rule and don't use it.

We like to win, or lose based on our own ability. Not only to catch fish but to cover water,

find them and develope a plan for tournament time.

Glen

[GAMBLER]

It is my understanding that the rule was originally changed becuse it was to easy to cheat with todays technology.

Personaly I am against the open comunication rule and don't use it.

We like to win, or lose based on our own ability. Not only to catch fish but to cover water,

find them and develope a plan for tournament time.

Glen

Well said Glen. I feel the same way.

[Fishtails]

Now Howie, You should know my name is not Rob....you fished on my boat bro....

My statement on The Pro Am being the best event is just my personal opinion. Like many teams, we fish them all, and that is just how we feel. As a team, we have all agreed that if we could only fish one series, it would be the Pro Ams. You may not agree, and that's cool. It makes for good discussion I suppose. It would be boring if we all agreed

All events change rules....if you have payed attention you saw the Scotty (KOTL) changed rules this year. The Pro Am often times changes rules based on feedback the committe recieves. Sometimes it just doesn't work out and should be changed back....as many of us seem to feel is the case here. I know I'm still wet behind the ears and I'm far from being one of the players Tom speaks of, but my team still pays to play and we should have a voice. I'm sure every team feels that way. When the majority speaks out, but isn't being heard....there's a problem.

Hey, We can only hope. Like Tom said, it's not looking good, but the fat lady isn't singing just yet.

Oh....and don't even get me started again on the time change for the Am's Howie I don't hold out much hope on that one getting changed either....same road block as with the closed cummunication .

[Shade]

Sorry Rod. By fishing in both the Pro and Amature divisions as well as being an Observer I have a better outlook on the Pro/Am event. All I am saying if a rule needs to be changed don't implement the old rule. build off the new one. You understand what I am saying. The old rule did not work either, if it did it would not have been changed. Just keep it simple.

I can only think that if the committee saw the first post on the communications where there were many suggestions on how to police it he probably saw what a headache the change would cause or just ask the committee why they are so against the change. Keep it simple...No Communications between other boats period. Forget about putting cell phone in a box or keep it on speaker or have the Observer be the cop. We are all adults and we have to believe that we will act like one. Keep the rule simple but the penalty is bared from any tounaments or events up and down the lake for ever.

There will be a difference of opinion no matter what changes are proposed but what I do believe in is everyone involved has a vote and everyones vote counts. I also think that a meeting should be held 60 days prior to the Niagara Pro/Am and the captain from each team should attend to discuss changes. To keep it simple only the 2 most popular topics will be discussed.

Just my suggestion.............

Howie

[LIQUID PLUMBER]

First I would like to thank everyone that work's hard to pull off these events! I wish we could resolve this matter with a simple vote of the pepole who fish the PRO/AM'S. Let's not keep fighting and losing fishermen and sponcers. When we need more of both! So lets hear the pro's and con's have a vote and move on. We need to make these events better and put our energy into finding more sponcers and promoting the events to atract more anglers so these events can get bigger and better. I am for no communication but I will go buy what ever rules are in place at the time of the event. I invite the committee to respond so we can hear the other side of the story also anyone else who was behind the open communicatio rule then we can have a vote and put this mess to bed.

Thank you

Del Casterline

[fishman08]

The pro/am committee does a great job with the tournaments and i hate to see how it gets bashed every year due to one rule or another. I for one did vote for no communication and wish it would be changed. However, teams still need to catch the fish and a lot of things can go wrong. A good example would be this year during the oswego scotty, many teams ran to the "promise land" were one team hit the motherload of fish, however the fish turned off and left many teams with few or no fish including thrillseeker.

It is very sad that we have lost teams due to the rule change and if a rule change would bring in more boats why not change, but with the market going south and people spending less money i would think that would be that major reason for the amount of teams entering these tournaments.

2 questions i have are:

what is major reason why this rule is being pushed this year compaired to the past?

Also in response to rod's response what's the road block with the amatuers?

[Fishtails]

A good example would be this year during the oswego scotty, many teams ran to the "promise land" were one team hit the motherload of fish, however the fish turned off and left many teams with few or no fish including thrillseeker.

And me

2 questions i have are:

what is major reason why this rule is being pushed this year compaired to the past?

Also in response to rod's response what's the road block with the amatuers?

Matt,

The first would need to be answered by Tom, as I believe he jump started this thread.

As for the road block statement I made, I was implying the Am time rule change that was implemented last year is backed by the same individual who is blocking the closed communication rule. I know this because of numerous in depth conversations with him. I want to be careful not to say to much, or sound like I am being overly critical.

I know why they don't want to change either rule, I just happen to have a different opinion.....as do most of the teams I have heard from.

[GAMBLER]

As an outsider looking in (since I do not fish these events), I believe to make it more competitive, and fair, there should be no communication. Why should one team be able to contact buddies NOT fishing the tourney to find out where the fish are? Local teams to that port have even more of an advantage over the out of town teams.

[daker1979]

As an outsider looking in (since I do not fish these events), I believe to make it more competitive, and fair, there should be no communication. Why should one team be able to contact buddies NOT fishing the tourney to find out where the fish are? Local teams to that port have even more of an advantage over the out of town teams.

I'm really for non communication, that being said Brian If you look at the Winners list you'll see that your statement really doesn't hold true and the better fisherman come to the top.......consistently year after year

[Shade]

Rod if you have knowledge on why the committee is unwilling to discuss or entertain these rule changes it would be nice to share that information so the rest of us can better understand his train of thought. I can not imagine why you would want to continue to allow communications, to me it is a form of cheating. I also do not understand why the change in the AM start and finishing times. I remember one year that we waited in a line to get our fish checked in. The next year they opened the check area up earlier which worked out great I thought. The Am's left the marina 10 minutes before the Pros and everyone started fishing at 6AM. I have no idea why this was changed. It seemed to work well.

Shade

[ray koziatek]

Ok well ive gotta admit i have chatted with other boats (some names here who are against) during the derbys when allowed and i can say it really didnt help my fishing intake , i run my program they run theirs (im bullheaded and "zoned" in when derby fishing).usually i prefish a few days prior the derby and 90% of what i "figured out" dont work on derby day due to the stupid fish changing their pattern,winds, ect....Its kinda fun to talk with friends on the water even in derbys as thats the only time i see some of you guys.. and after the dock ropes are tied we chat some more...The home port is a hudge advantage (i think) specially to the charters who follow the fish on a daily basis..but the day of derby can throw a cabash into that too (huh del).....so if its closed its closed ,open its open ,6 fish 9 fish 12 fish rules are rules ....Sometimes im a go with the flow guy..but if a majority is against for whatever reason then that always should be taken into serious thought when estlabishing the "rules"...With the struggling economy the AM. devision has droped off like flys(no pun Tom) ,Rules,money,politics,I dont know the reason ,this site has done more I feel to get to the "new guys" as that was how we (team) discovered the PRO/AMS. And a longstanding friendship with many..on here. So many times a year I try to do my little part to encourage the guys on the fench to hop off get into a derby or 4 ,You will meet many people who share the love of fishing,knowlage of fishing,and the competative side of derby fishing..You dont need a fancy boat (look at my 23 yr old barge),or all the fancy fishing stuff that some have (not me) , and if you stumble into that hungry school of fish during the derby there is a good chance you will place well ,get some nice gifts,and be "a hero" till the next derby..I feel the commitie needs some help in rounding up more sponcers,some nice door prizes,and ways to pull in new competators..After 10 years of organizing "The World Series Of Cinderella Softball" (2500 competators) i know all too well the planing,and burnout that occures with "big mostly volenteer events" ....so what ever the out come a BIG THANK YOU TO ALL THE FOLKS THAT SPEND COUNTLESS HOURS PUTTIN TOGEATHER THE ....PRO/AMS

RAY K.

[Fishtails]

Rod if you have knowledge on why the committee is unwilling to discuss or entertain these rule changes it would be nice to share that information so the rest of us can better understand his train of thought.

Howie,

Maybe that is something you would do, but the way I was raised what is said in confidence stays in confidence. That is something a committee member needs to do himself. I'm not affiliated with them and don't have that right. You have a pm from me.

I can not imagine why you would want to continue to allow communications

Howie...again..."please pay attention". Now, you are starting to push my limits of tolerance here. If you are going to call someone out, get the facts straight. I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID I AM 100% FOR CLOSED COMUNICATION. What the heck dude.....get off my back! How much clearer can I be ???

to me it is a form of cheating

So Howie, now we are all cheaters? The current rule is open communication. How is that cheating? That's just a brilliant statement ya made there Howie. How come your Captian calls me during every Pro Am then...huh?? Yes, I speak with other captians because that is the current rule. These are friends of mine (your captian included), and if I don't speak with them when they call, I'm being rude. However....if we are no longer allowed, I would welcome that with open arms. It would relieve some of us from feeling "obligated" by friendship to make a phone call.

PLEASE....direct your non-sense towards someone else. This is very non-productive and I'm done with you.

[A-TOM-MIK]

To address a few questions:

Shade: The Oswego event ran very well with a No Communication policy for over 10 years before unification, there was never a reason to change it, it can not really be said that the rule did not work as you have quoted, it was changed without giving Oswego coordination a say in the matter. It ran very well for years under no communication, this to a field of 78 teams.

The reason I have spearheaded this attempt to close communication "again" has several bearings:

I will also reiterate a few key points:

--Our Oswego event has been reduced of players since unification due to this rule mainly and other rule changes as well, there will be more that drop as has been threatened and the chances of lost teams to be re-gained is minimal if not zero

--As an individual who follows these events and who participates, as a sponsor to many additional teams who also partake in these events, as well as sponsoring the events to make them more healthy and look attractive to the players I feel the majority should be heard and respected.

--In respect to those who have helped put A-TOM-MIK on the map I felt the need for a further campaign to give respect back, this when asked, "Tom, your a sponsor, they won't listen to me, maybe they will listen to you?"

--To maintain a vibrant little business in the tackle world is not easy, these events are huge for our success. Longevity is key, we want these events to be around forever, they are not going to be under coordination that will not lend an ear to its players.

--This may seem like only a hurdle or a minor bump in the road to some. I feel coordination (from all Pro/Am events) as it stands today in general are looked up to, and respected, it is realized about the work being done behind the scenes, to date it seems pretty good. What happens when the general consensus does not feel that way anymore, what happens when we stop appreciating the work being done because we felt coordination was not willing to listen to our needs and/or wants. Only speculation at this point but from a more personal standpoint I can honestly say as much as I have kept A-TOM-MIK on the table come Pro/Am time, I feel I will be re-thinking future promotion due to a non-respected feeling in return.

--The players should be respected to within a certain boundary, we can not make everyone happy we all know. We could satisfy many of the contributors from all ends with a no communication event. Votes have been noted on several occasions, a majority has been set in place.

--One key issue that has been over-looked here, open communication has brought out the worse in us, concealing info from some, then giving it to others, friendships have been lost, who can trust who gathering info. No names mentioned but in one event with open communication false info was given, a boat picked up and ran to what they thought was the promise-land, only to find a vacant waste-land of fish after a some-odd mile ride. Closed communication will create a void in info that is being used against us at times.

--Another reason I have kept this campaign in our thoughts longer is due to input from the many green-horns I deal with yearly, on many an occasion I heard comments like, "There is no way I could ever fish a Pro/Am, I don't have enough friends."

....C'mon, this should not be the feeling being portrayed here, we should want to hone our skills then see where we rank amongst our friends and the local hot shots port to port, this doing it ourselves, isn't that what competition is all about?

I could go on but will leave it at that for now, gotta run

Hope I answered all your questions

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 438&ref=nf

Tom

[A-TOM-MIK]

In response to what answers have come from the coordination's side, Bob C was mentioned but this info came from Bill Hilts

This is a copy and paste from my FB group

These were his concerns with going No Communication:

Closed/open communication does not make a difference, all teams still need to catch fish

The non-enforcement issue, all compounded by how advanced our age of communications has come – cell phone, blackberries, wireless internet, texting, instant messaging

It’s better to have everyone on a level playing field rather than having teams willing to bend the rules in their favor giving them a perceived advantage

There has always been a chance to have a communications company as a potential sponsor. We actually had Verizon as a sponsor one year, with the hopes that they would be coming back in a bigger way

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I opted this out of dialog, in full enclosed here

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 438&ref=nf

Tom

[Shade]

Thanks Tom for the committees concerns. It clears up some comments that where made earlier. It is true that you still need to catch fish regardless of information you may get. We all know that you can be fishing in 90 feet of water, 50' down, temp at the ball is 53 deg., trolling at 2.3 and bait fish show all over your screen and ya still can not hook one. You get a call from your buddy who is also fishing the event and he tells you to try 70 fow. 50' down, run your spoons 50 back and run 2.2. All the sudden you fill your box. I have no problems with that.

Now you call a friend you know is fishing and is not in the event and he tells you run to these coordinates, use these lures, at this speed, at this depth and you fill your box. IN MY OPINION, ONCE AGAIN FOR ROD, IN MY OPINION thats A FORM of cheating. If you get or give information that helps you or them climb the board from the other division, in MY OPINION that is unethacle. To fill your box you have to 1)find then 2) catch the fish. So common sense tells us that if someone tells you where the fish are you chances obviously increase.

Rod if you are through with me then I guess I will return your ring. I never called you or anyone else a cheater. I have the up most respect for you and everyone on this site.

If thats how you took my comments then I openly appologize to each and evey member on this site and to all who are on the Pro/Am committees.

Howard Nola

[Gill-T]

It is not a level playing field if I don't own a cell phone or have the same connections as other teams. I understand the "you can't enforce it" arguement, but what happened to gentlemen's agreement to follow the rules? What about ethics? What about giving someone the benefit of the doubt? If there is evidence of cheating as witnessed by an observer then bring in the lie detector test and confirm it, and kick the S.O.B.s arse out of all future tournaments. Make the penalty soooooo friekin' huge, it won't be worth the chance. What is the point of HAVING OBSERVERS if we are not actually using them for their intended purpose?