Continued support for No Communication East end Pro/Am's

[Fishtails]

Howie....I just don't want to discuss this particular issue with you any further. It's not being constructive and I feel you're miss quoting me. That's all I'm saying.

We can kiss and make up in the spring....

[Paul Czarnecki]

Howie....I just don't want to discuss this particular issue with you any further. It's not being constructive and I feel you're miss quoting me. That's all I'm saying.

We can kiss and make up in the spring....

I wanna see that! I'll be there with my camera and maybe you two should get Bob to stand between you. It could be a "group man-kiss"........OMG---my eyes!

[Fishtails]

I wanna see that! I'll be there with my camera and maybe you two should get Bob to stand between you. It could be a "group man-kiss"........OMG---my eyes!

LMAO !!!!! Our Bro-mance is on the rocks Paul

[ray koziatek]

ROD ARE YOU SAYING LETTING ME BORROW THE PINK TOWEL WAS JUST THAT!!!!!!!

[Jeff J]

First of all I would like to thank all the Pro-Am committee members for their hard work at and behind the scenes for making these events so much fun!!

As a newcomer to the Pro-Am events, I was not around when the communications rule changed, but I am curious as to why it was changed though.

I can look at some of the rule changes and see why they were changed and changed back or again. Numbers of fish change and I can see changing the size of the box limits to help out with the ups and downs in the fish populations, etc.

If it appeared that too many fish were dieing, I can see the no cull rule.

I don't see why the Ams lost fishing time except to make the lines shorter but why at our expense only??

I think that Tom's poll is correct and above board, but if the Pro-Am committee needs more than that then maybe a mandatory question could be put on the application form and all teams need to answer it yes or no to enter the events. Maybe some of the teams that dropped out would get back into some or all of the events just so that their opinion would be heard. If the overwhelming majority want the rule changed, change it for 2012, it can always be changed again if necessary.

I know that enforcing rules can be difficult but most of the current rules could be broken if someone really wanted to!! An observer is there to make sure the rules are followed. If the penalty for violating any of the rules is severe enough, anybody that may be tempted to break certain rules may think twice.

If someone needs to cheat to win or place at a Pro-Am event I feel sorry for them. I know that I couldn't live with myself if I had to break the rules to win!!!

Hopefully the Pro-Am committee will listen to the majority and change the rules accordingly so the the Pro-Am series will continue to grow and we can all continue to have a great time!!!!

Jeff

[Primetime Pete]

Tom,

Please put Prime Time Fishing Team down for no communication! This is the main reason we stopped fishing these events. Get it done and we'll be back in the tournament.

Thanks

Pete

[get it wet]

I am not part of the pro ams but do get these same questions asked to us as well with our events. It is very hard to police this rule. it is hard enough to police the rules that are in place now and with all the protests and disqualifications that they have had in the past I think it's a good move to not venture down this road of no - communication.

The bottom line is this, the rules are even for everyone on the water, if you want to talk, go ahead, if you don't want to, don't! By the sounds of everybody that is speaking out it will be pretty quiet next year anyway as no one wants to communicate. Let me ask everyone that is reading this, "when have you seen anyone win because of a phone call?" NEVER. When have you fished the first day at one spot with 10 boats and the next day fish with 60 boats? LOTS Should we put a gag order on all teams at night to stop that communication? NEVER. More times than not the info you get doesn't help you it hurts you.

I think you don't lose a lot of teams due to this rule, it is just another excuse not to fish a tournament. Let's make these events the most fun they can be. More Fun = More Teams / More Rules and disqualifications = Less Teams I think part of the fun is competing against your close friends, you know one day you get him, the next he gets you. Part of that is talking throughout the day to find out how he is doing and not so much sharing specific fishing info.

Think of these points before you roast me on this

just my 2 cents worth

Yvan

[A-TOM-MIK]

Yvan, I do not believe you will be roasted, well not for this anyway He He He (:

The response from opposition has been welcomed, a majority has simply spoke out in favor of "No Communication" It is what a higher number of boats want, considerably higher I might add, boats would gladly not communicate if it was a rule, but I am one to agree with the same majority, if others are going to communicate so are we. I do feel communication is an asset when that is the rule, each team who has ever won an event has pretty much proven that under an open communication policy.

In retrospect, concerning one of the teams I frequently fish with, I can tally the percentage of successfullness during No Communication events and see clearly we did better

One note while I was taking a valid poll from Oswego boats only, this to communicate or not to communicate, I stated if your vote was not to communicate I would not question you otherwise. I would simply take your vote, tally it up and leave it at that. In response to your roasting worry, I believe that to be an invalid reason why nobody has spoke out

I can prove by my tally I had one single boat speak up, contact me and say Tom, I am all for open communication, there name has never been mentioned, I have respected their vote

Good luck to KOTL Yvan, I hope to be there !!!!

Tom

[maverick]

Genrtlemen

If we don't wish to communicate we wont. Rule or no Rule. NOBODY says we have too..Its that simple. So some can complain until the cows come home the fact is that many boats already do not communicate. If you understand the quality of the competition you will understand that the people who are finishing well are those that are fishing well..I have been fishing these west end pro ams since they started and i can honestley say it doesnt make a difference as far as i can see. NOBODY IS GOING TO SHARE INFO ON TOURNEY DAYS. Atleast far as i can see. I cant really see Oswego from the oak so thats a little tricky to say. The rule is the rule. People are going to cheat as long as we have competition. Its the nature of the beast. you cant stop it. I AM ALL FOR THE NO COMMUNICATION RULE... lets get that straight right now...have been for years..But lets face facts..if you have to win a tourney because your friends have called you then lets face it you probably shouldnt be fishing in this tournement. As most likely you dont know much about fish anyways. Were not all going to take first every tourney.. Sorry tom.. get in line with the rest of us. Wish we all could.. But we have to Take our spanking like men and go home.The playing field is as even as it can be across the board for everyone with the rule the way it is. Cheaters are everywere around us. Gentlemens agreement was mentioned..lmfao.. Thats out the window as soon as we leave the dock.. If questions need to be answered then i suggest we look in our own back yards for the answers first..Obviousley starting in Oswego call Dave Turner..The rule wasn't stuffed down anyone's throat it was inherrited by Oswego as part of the rule which were already in place. Lets all get our facts right before we go spilling false info all over the place..It doesnt seem to be hurting anyone right now nor in the past..

Just how I feel

Mav

[A-TOM-MIK]

Maverick,

Concerning Oswego:

Dave Turner does one hell of a job taking into consideration he new very little concerned with Lake Ontario and our tournament scene. He has come around quite well and quite fast considering the tremendous learning curve associated with what the rest of us have taken years to achieve. I give Dave credit for his energy and strong interest.

However, as he stepped in (in any light you wish to characterize it as) and unification was "adopted" there wasn't a whole lot of say given to us as players to the Oswego event for our dedication behind many many years. Many of us same players that did very well by the "now claimed non enforceable rule" that enjoyed our Oswego event under closed communication do not have that same option, our over-whelming opinions do not matter. Open Communication was never part of any rule as you state in Oswego !!

Tom

[spoonfed-1]

If questions need to be answered then i suggest we look in our own back yards for the answers first..Obviousley starting in Oswego call Dave Turner..The rule wasn't stuffed down anyone's throat it was inherrited by Oswego as part of the rule which were already in place. Lets all get our facts right before we go spilling false info all over the place..It doesnt seem to be hurting anyone right now nor in the past..

This "Inherited" rule caused a good number of boats to stop fishing the Oswego event.

Look at the entry decline since this was "inhereted". In fact, guys that fished it under closed comunications, one of which already posted on the subject, feel it was "stuffed down their throats". Seems like the facts are pretty straight to me.

Glen

[maverick]

Tom,

I too give dave the utmost respect for what he has done for your tournement..Glad to see it

I understand all of the concerns but who really has the answers.. All i said was contact the people who know. Thats it. I agree with you..like i said in my last post..nobody forced it down the throat of anyone..so yes you are rite. As far as the numbers game goes i think every tournement will suffer losses no matter how big or how small they may be..Jobs lost, bad economy, cant get vacation from work ...etc..Again i will say this I AM AGAINST THE RULE.. always have been..But does this change mean big changes or does it mean change for only the few..How many boats do you think will start to fish again as a result of this change?? 5 maybe 10. are we seriouse..The rule has been in effect for so long that quite honestly i dont think too many people even think about it anymore. atleast not until someone brings it up..There are plenty of boats that are fishing the tourney now and there will be more coming thats for sure..When payouts are getting bigger and they are usually trying to throw money in all over the tourney to make it better for us..We need answers from the people who are in charge and thats what we should get.When have any tournement players had a say in what the rules should or should not be. If they did maybe they too may slant the rules in there favor..It should not be allowed to happen..Our input is great for them and im sure they appreciate all of it but do you really think they should base rules on what a bunch of smelly fisherman think? lol.. That is the job of the tournement comittee to decide. This tournement is as level playing field as it could possably be for everyone involved..The cheaters will still cheat..so keep the playing field level..there is no reason the cheaters should win out. It will happen and no matter how hard you try and police it if someone wishes to cheat they will and you cant stop it..Last yr. they caught a a boat that was incorrectly filling out his fish log data in oswego didnt they and there observer filled out the paper work.. so there goes that.. idea.the rules prevailed and unfortunatly the boat was dq.again the fact that the rule is there or its not has no berring on how we fish nor does it matter to the pro boats that i associate with..They simply do not do it. if you want to use ur phone go ahead if not then stay off the f---ng thing. If you look back through out the years the top place finishers have always been about the same Boats and captains just in different places... some new comer sneaks in and get paid and thats great but lets be real here. how many pro boats are willing to share info during tourney time...not many and if they do it wont be much good.. When you/your teams are collecting their check does it really matter to you ...i dont think so... Your applause and your high fives and cheers may disagree with you

Thats all i got to say about that............lol

Good luck.

Chris

[A-TOM-MIK]

I do feel the Pro/Am's are a great thing, can not deny, many passions are ran high towards them

I only want the best for them and that bottom line is shared by many

I want to be able to fish them forever, hopefully all players feel the same way

Internet info is a great asset, this input works its way around to many, even those who do not partake in it, constant awareness is always needed

The luxury of having a high interest involved with these events from all sides comes a bit harder these days, the active targeted crowd has to choose much of their fishing days in our present times.

All interest from this topic has had its effects, hopefully much more good than bad, one goal was only to bring awareness

We can not take certain things for granted and constantly get away with them, I refer to many things with this comment

The best we can make these events should be the ultimate goal

Tom

[maverick]

Tom

I agree.. And thats is the only thing that really matters here.

Fish on

chris

[Fishtails]

The passion brought fourth during this and every Pro Am subject is glaringly obvious....is it not? All I have to say at this juncture is this, there have been so many good points here (and I have read every one) I don't even know how I feel anymore

[Paul Czarnecki]

You're still mad at Howie though, right? Don't go making up now---I want to be there with a camera for the three way man kiss between YOU, Howie and BOB BUCK!

[Fishtails]

Howie and I are working on that (the making up part...not the man kissing part) The image of that is kinda freaking me out!! Maybe we'll just settle for a cold one...if that's OK with everyone.....

[muskybob]

Howie and I are working on that (the making up part...not the man kissing part) The image of that is kinda freaking me out!! Maybe we'll just settle for a cold one...if that's OK with everyone.....

Thank you Thank you Thank you

[Tim Bromund]

Paul, the question is, are you still mad at Jim

Tim

[Paul Czarnecki]

LOL Tim. Of course I'm still mad at Jim....

He didn't know about the curse and "inadvertently" cost me $1000 and the chance to win $10,000. But, that's ok cause I'm sure he learned his lesson.

[Shade]

Paul,

Seems you want to get involved in my business. I am curious to know now that you opened another can of worms, what does Bob Buck have to with this post? I have not spoken to Bob Buck since August.

Please explain, I am sure that everyone on this Website is loosing sleep over this.

Howie

[Paul Czarnecki]

Howie, Howie, Howie......lighten up Dude. It was all a joke.

Everyone else seemed to get it.

I don't want to get involved in your "business" or anyone else's, for that matter. It was just a little joke to lighten up what had become an ugly thread.

Here.....have a beer on me!

[ray koziatek]

Anyone want a bananna ?? huh!!! opps!!!! ,,,,,,what derby?? oh im not in that one dont be silly its 25.00 and a 100 yd walk to enter.... Paul Paul Why are you turning green............................................ohh now red ....................uh and why is the fish club in your hand...........

[bottom-feeder]

i have only observed in 1 pro-am....oswego in 09...... we are planning on fishing the open div this year......... i've been watching this thread for awhile and dont really understand what difference it makes if a couple boats wanna talk to each other....... we are gonna fish just because we enjoy being on the water and MAYBY will have a chance to make a little money while doing what we gonna be doing anyway...... everybody is gonna talk at night anyway ( weather they give up secrets then is their buisiness )

anyway it just seems to me there is a lot of arguing over something that isnt a big deal

[Shade]

Paul,

When I came back to lake Ontario in July 2006 things changed dramatically from the 70's to the mid 80's. To get back in the swing of things we decided to try out some charters to see and learn from their experience. We did 6 charters in 2 months. The fishing in Olcott was really slow which forced us to head to the Oak. We did 2 Charters out of Olcott and 4 out of the Oak. Two of the 4 from the Oak where given to us through local research and the other 2 we contacted through the internet. We had a good time on 4 of the charters and a blast on the other 2. We new we where not going to fish the Oak it was to far so we had to concentrate our efforts in Olcott. In 2007 we fished our first Pro/Am and it was painful. Do not get me wrong as a team we had fun we just sucked as fishermen OMG. What we found that was really funny is 40+ boats left Olcott harbor and where we were fishing there wasn't a boat in site. We new then we had a lot to learn. So I found this site and 4 names came up as far as helping us on fishing the BIG O. Ray K, Billy V, Yankee Troller and Paul C. I was unable to book a charter with you guys because you were booked on the dates we had available until we finally got a chance to fish with you Paul. Ray has always answered my questions (once you figure out the words) and I still thank him for his help. Billy and Yankee helped us put together a basic arsenal and you enlitened us on how to read the water an fish a variety of conditions and connect with the gods. I certainly am not taking away from all the other directions, support and help we got from eveyone on this site along with a lot of reasearch we did on our own.

I am an Amature fishermen and I want nothing more than to see the Pro/Am grow especially in the AM division. To see the decline as the event moves east is sad. To hear individuals tell me why they will not participate is just as sad because it can be fixed. I think there is a lot more at stake in Pro division then in Am division as well as the experience and knowledge the Pros have. Most, if not all ,the AM's are more week end and maybe a vacation week fishermen. We do not have the luxury to fish 7 days a week from May through September not to say you captains do not work hard to satisfy your clients. We do not have sponsors to give us gear or front our entrance fees although i am sure there are a few AM teams that have a sponsor. Having sponsors is important to your Charters.

I am willing to compete with those few fortunate AM teams but what I can not compete with is Pro division helping AM teams on where to go, what to use, how fast to troll and how deep to fish. Please do not tell me that does not exisit or it does not always help because I saw it first hand. Even if the team does not win but just having the advantage to put 2 extra fish in the box can improve your standings. If you want to allow open communications, keep it between the divisions. You will never police this but knowing that the penalty may DQ you life may lesson the chance and then the humiliation that you would indever not to say the tag put on a charter Captain would have to make you think before you break the rule.

Keep in mind that rules are implemented for 2 reasons. 1) to let you know what you can do and 2) let you know what you can not do. Rules in events are impletemented, removed or reworded most times because they are either outdated, forced by new technology or some sort of unfair act was attempted. When this happens it is the resposibility of the committee to implement any changes without taking each issue to a vote. But when you are asked by the many to support your decision it is the committees responsibility and duty to stand up as a committee, not one speaking for all, and support your decision. This does not mean the committee has to explane every move they make but when it attracts this much attention, it absolutly needs to be discussed.

I heard the Communication issue has been on going for sometime now so I did some research. This discussion has been going on since late 2006 on this Site alone. There was one response by you Paul, where you said something like the response was overwelming to open communications which implies that there was some sort of vote, pole or emails to warrent a change. I think after 3 years it is time to put this to bed and either take another pole or step up to the plate with rest of the orginizers and end this.

I volunteered to serve on the committee and I give you my word that my personal preferences will be set aside and I will consentrate all my efforts on whats good for the Pro/Am and give 110% on the duties that are assigned to me.I want the Pro/Am to succeed as well. Obtaining more sponsors and new participants will help it grow but I still stand on working to bring back some who left. As long as I am on the committee open forum discussions on rules ends with me here.

Just one more plea for help. I have fished Lake Ontario from 1970 - 1985 returning in 2006 and I still have not caught a Brown Trout. Help me put at least one in box this season. Thank you

Paul, I do not drink but heres to you and Rod ..... I'll buy the first round come spring.

Howie