3 rod rule needs our help

[ray koziatek]

just having fun as i know how you love and respect the musky and the knitting site (is mine OK) geese now im found out knit 1 perl 2 ,,,,if i bring in a little fish without much battle i know a good torpedo and its gone ,and a big boy after a long fight gets a little more "love" when revived and released. lakers from the deep need a good burping,gets the shoulder a little slimy buy i pat em till they BURP,,,and of course they always poop down the front of the shirt too. so a laker bib is a must. We got a pretty good group here with some good fish experience and knowalage of the fishery...can the dec,tell the age ,,fun loving,,and overall health, fin clip identify shure ,but a few of us who have pulled in 1000,s of fish in our lifetime can sorta tell when sumpting ant right....just like derby fishing and them stupid fish you did well with one day go on a diet the next....and trust me if i wanted to fire you up id call you ,, O'nitromusky Hava great day and i heard you can do pretty good on waneta through the ice ,,hope sean and the boys spank their arse good...

[spoonfed-1]

Sounds all well and good but sorry, we are for the most part just a bunch of fishermen here.

We do not have experience or education in survey research but what we do have is an awful lot of combined hours fishing Lake Ontario. And I can tell you the majority of those that gave their opinions are people that care about the well being of the fishery as well as pay to support it.

We are not scientists or polititions and discuss these matters on a message board that is being run for just that purpose.

SO WHATS THE PROBLEM?

You wrote:

As for the ‘poll’ I would NOT put any credence in any passive polls put up on a site like this. Totally skewed result. I will leave it at that.

How could you not put any credence in a poll that is being conducted and discussed here by some of the worlds leading experts on the subject?

The guys that fish Lake Ontario.

Glen

[NitroMusky]

Haha Ray, I know its all in good jest…I worry less, (OK not at all) about the folks here, but unfortunately a few bad apples do exist (apparently on Waneta ) Glen, I'm not undermining the opinions here, just don't project them to represent a broader set of opinions outside this forum. Particularly, any data used with legislators to support the argument must be very solid.

My point is simply this:

In reading this thread, it appears that while walleyemagic has done a yeoman’s job of spearheading this change and many benefits to the state and local fishing/tourism industry have been identified, much of the discussion comes across as a thinly veiled or overt attempt to further a self-serving agenda by fishermen to increase their personal catch rates. Hear me out…as I know that’s not the case. But if the contingent here would like to make this change happen and give it the best chance of succeeding, then a concerted coalition needs to come together (preferably through or supported by a NY fishing commerce group). This group must not be formed to push through the 3 rod rule directly (and be seen has having an agenda), but for addressing some issue which legislators can identify with and get behind. I would suggest that this coalition prepare a ‘report’ and make the case something like this:

-Present an issue (e.g. lower fishing tourism)

-Show how it affects us all AND is relevant to legislators: (negative impact on the NYS economy and tax and DEC revenue, resulting in lower stocking rates which creates a vicious downward spiral on tourism– or something like that)

-Identify a solution and discuss those alternative which were ruled out or less attractive: (3 rod rule vs alternatives)

-Demonstrate how this solution can remedy the root of the problem: (better angling success for these tourists drawing repeat visits, resulting in better DEC revenues and stocking, yielding a better quality fishery and reversal of the downward tourism/fishing spiral)

Brainstorm additional benefits to the state: (the marketing of such a change in tourism promotion in NYS and elsewhere)

Now here is where it gets tricky…

-Preemptively identify and discuss ALL objections (flaming our legislators wont work ). Think about the issue like our legislators would. Keep in mind that they will consider the direct financial aspects (including mundane things like having to reprint the regs) as well as a layman’s perceptions of impact on the fishery. Some of these objections could have no basis in reality, but what would they know, they’re legislators not fishermen. Take a note of the objections raised in this thread and present solid data and projections to support your hypothesis.

-Be prepared to address the skeptics perceiving this as fishermens’ veiled attempt to simply increase their take-home rates. This is best through a solid research and analysis/projections. If some of these objections have even a shred of potential truth, be prepared to discuss how the legislation should be fine tuned or limited in order to minimize the objections - or risk this unwanted perception.

Remember, you will not likely have an opportunity to weigh in and address objections as they arise, as it’s a lot different behind closed doors than the transparency and instant communication of the internet. So the document has to stand on its own and tie back to issues (economic) that are relevant to our representatives in Albany.

Good luck…

[spoonfed-1]

Sounds like I'll have to call my boss and tell him I'll be out for a couple weeks researching and preparing a petition for the 3 rod rule. LOL

Thanks for your feedback.

Glen

[holy mackerel]

Well said Nitro!!

[LongLine]

You have some good points there. Unfortunately, we’re not lawyers nor have the resources to do what you propose. The fishing club is a good idea –LOTSA had a drive supporting it and I applaud them for it. Others said: “we’ll see if we can get it on the next year’s agenda – in the meantime mail your dues to….†(The downward trend in the number of fishermen affects them too)

There’s a lot more to the 3 rod discussion than just this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14768

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9630

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8641

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8541

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8608

The poll & petition were done “passively†on purpose, to solicit honest reply of stakeholders from both sides. They were written from the “little guy†point of view. (Mine – purely recreational & 100% C&R).

The DEC says they do not support it but they also say they do not oppose it. (Check out the above LOU links especially the post where the DEC proposed it a few yrs back & the fishing club that was put on the spot said no at the time.) Times change & the majority of stakeholders are now for it, per the poll on a stakeholders forum and on a couple other sites. (DEC, by law, must involve stakeholders in decision making)

If you look at the petition (on “LOU for change†section), you’ll find the link. No negative comment has been deleted from the petition. No votes have been changed on the poll. A couple loud ones came in however the magnitude of negatives just didn’t come.

Specifically as to solid numbers:

The 2008 NYSDEC boat creel survey states 41% of the all boats seeking T&S (not anglers) had zero catch. (Sect 2 pg 37) It further states that the overall average boat seeking T&S had 2.98 anglers onboard. (Sect 2 pg 31) The average charter had 5.2 anglers per trip (Sect 2 pg 32). The non-charter boat average catch was 1.69 fish per trip and the charter average catch was 6.08 per trip. (Sect 2 pg 36)

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... 8sec02.pdf

Creel limits were established to prevent overfishing and protect the fish populations from exploitation. Lake Ontario fishermen are nowhere near the daily creel limits. In Sect 2 pg37, it states that the number of non-charter boats successfully catching their creel limit of T&S was 1.0% and for Charter anglers 1.8%.

The NYSDEC fishing survey published this last summer (covering 7,500 lakes & 50k miles of streams) says that 81% of the angler days people spent fishing in NYS were on the Great lakes.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... rptsum.pdf

It goes on to say that “approximately ½ of the fishermen†were satisfied with the quantity (49%) of fish they caught and 48% were satisfied with the size of the fish. As to the satisfaction part: more than half were not happy with their catch, thus indicating that “catching†is very important to the majority of fishermen. I have previously posted my personal meet-ups with dissatisfied fishermen at the launch. I’ll fish Lake Ontario again & again, but I really doubt they will, especially after they spent all that effort, time & money to give it a shot.

Will an unsatisfied fisherman make a return trip to the same area??? Will he spend his time, effort and money in the same area??

Going back to the annual report, (Sect 2, pg 31) there’s a documented downward trend in the number of fishing trips taken on Lake Ontario. If anyone has been following NYS fishing license sales, they’ll also know about the decline in the last few years. We all know about the new license fees and some probably know how the charter fleet has declined in numbers over the years. Where did the fishermen go? Some have left the state. (obviously) Look at the satisfaction survey again. Some have gone inland (Oneida fishermen numbers have risen dramatically.) Fact is, they’re not returning to the Big-O. With declining participation, the state (& agencies) is going to be hard pressed to justify the level of spending on the Big-O fishery. (In fact all over)

The petition states:

We believe that this 3-Rod Rule will favorably impact a Troller’s experience on Lake Ontario by increasing his potential of catching a Salmon or Trout, especially when the fish are dispersed throughout the lake. There is major social and economic benefit to this proposal. Catching a fish enhances angler satisfaction more than any other factor and the satisfied angler is the one that will make return visits to our fishery. (He will enthusiastically tell friends; he will be inclined to purchase more gear, boating supplies & fishermen staples & launch more often; hire more charters

, etc)

That petition & poll were an attempt to help get the numbers of people fishing Lake Ontario back up using the DEC’s own data, 1 ½ yrs ago. Specifically, to get the little guy coming back. 3 rods does not mean people will catch more fish. It means “increasing the potential to catch a salmon or trout.â€

As for being statewide, I have no problem with that, now. At the time of the poll and petition writing, my thoughts were for the NYSDEC to follow Michigan’s example. I.E. try it on the open water, monitor it through the established boat survey then expand it statewide if found favorable. The DEC likes data and statistical analysis so I proposed a methodology for them to get it and to evaluate it. (Subsequently posted)

Negative consequences:

As for enforcing the laws, the DEC can’t enforce the 2 line rule now. A CO can’t see your lines unless he’s right on top of you. (mono, fluoro, etc) He could see your rods a mile away though. (As for 1 rod for this guy, 2 for that & 3 for that…it would be a nightmare for anyone to enforce & DEC would be totally against that.)

As for the catch rate mortality issue: Yes, the more fish harvested the more die. A formal study was done by the Mich DNR and supported by USF&WS & SeaGrant on Lake Trout C&R, long recognized as being the most stressed fish upon capture in the open water of the Great Lakes as they come from great depths. Anyways, they showed minimal loss.

http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/nyext/nyextg87002.pdf

What we really have to do is express our opinions to our legislatures. A single report can easily be trashed or deleted with a single stroke. Many letters takes more effort/strokes to trash and will get more attention.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

edit reason - I copied/pasted a paragraph rather than cut/pasted. my oops

[spoonfed-1]

Tom you never cease to amaze me with your ability for this type of thing.

Glad you are on our side.

Glen

[muskybob]

Tom you never cease to amaze me with your ability for this type of thing.

Glad you are on our side.

Glen

Me too, I'm glad he knows when & how to use paragraphs (ray - hint hint hint)

[Has Been]

The DEC in the letter they sent to me said they DID NOT support it. If they had no stance ,that is what they would have written. Not suportting is a no vote as I see it. When The Buerau of Fisheries does not support ( and that IS their official stance, read my thread on Open lake disscusion) why would you want to get this law pushed through ? Maybe the DEC changed its stance to opposing it after seeing the current situation of the Lake Ecosystem which we all know is not great at the present time.

[Erbyjoe]

Nitro very well written response. I like the fact that you can see it both ways with out complaining that some one has a different opioun than you. You make some great points. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Tom you should run for office You put together such a great replys and so in depth. if you need campain $$ let me know I throw you some

HB Your right your always right

[salmonboy41]

the 3 rod rule would make it easer for those of us who are regualur fishermen aka non charter captians whos number of people depend on who that find to go which alot of times is for me is just dad and me and only being abile to use 2 rods apeace only which really inhibites our ability to catch fish.

[redeyes]

when fishing alone...i can run two down riggers now...but if i could run a dipsie rod off one side..it would put something different in front of the fish

and we could all feel like we finaly got something for our money

just a little change for us sportsman

red eyes

[SalmonChaser]

I am in favor of the 3 rod rule as an out of state fisherman that spends about a month total during the summer on the lake contributing much to the NY economy in many ways, at times it would be nice to be able to drop a third line in without having to pull a rod. Just because you put down a 3rd line does not automatically guarantee you a fish.