Keuka Rainbows

[Culver1]

I grew up on Canandaigua lake and was very successful fishing for lakers browns and rainbows. We would run copper, seth greens, and downriggers. 8 years ago I moved to Keuka and as of now, have only been able to dial in the lakers. I have tried just about everything I can think of but have not been able to hook up with Rainbows , browns or salmon. Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

Tim

[ray koziatek]

their almost ant none .....Coldbrook Creek is the #1 spawning stream for that lake and its been ignored (running out of banks,beaver dams,log jams ect,ect) for years ..1 man on 1 buldozer for 1 week would have that creek back and running 100% ,toss in a few coffer dams and the fish would come back.....

BUT due to all the stupid red tape,rules ,regulations,restrictions,ordances,permits,oversight and 100 other reasons a $10,000 job tops ,would probly run 1 million..

(give me a dozer for a week and close some eyes ) and by majic it would be fixed for the price of the fuel..

[Fish Junkie]

Respectfully disagree Ray.

I fish cold brook and can tell you it isn't the habitat. The state did clear the creek several years back and there are no impassible barriers and there are some nice new diggers etc. There are plenty juvenile rainbows in the stream as i walked a section of it a few weeks back. I also talked with a biologist who said there are enough rainbows successfully reproducing to keep the native population going as evident in their smolt census he said they take. Whatever is happening to the rainbows he said is happening IN the lake. IMO is it the overpopulation of lakers in the system chowing down on the juvenile rainbows and stocked browns. Same thing is happening to native rainbow and cutthroat populations out west and in Yellowstone Park for instance. lakers are heavily predating on the bows and cutties and those populations are half of what they were.

The lakers on top of a changing ecosystem in the Finger Lakes with zebra mussels , decline of smelt populations, etc. are taking a toll on the other trout.

[ray koziatek]

I spent my summers as a kid in Hammondsport so ya might say i grew up there way back (late 60,s) when people line the stream like cathren creek today and the rainbows were large and plentiful ,,,then the flood of 72 had its way with the stream, pretty much returning it back to its natural state of a large marsh flowing into its origional "bed "that ran close to now A/C mesueam on 54 where it was moved from in the 30"s..

The stream as you know it today was not its designed path but a man made "fishing stream" and run to help replentish the "egg supply" at the cold brook hatchery..

Some improvements were made in the early 90tys in the uppersection near the old winery (latest owned by Mercury) They did improve several 1000 ft of stream that was maintained (keeped flowing ) by 1 person ( no one I know) from the mid 80tys with home made dams and a marine entrenching tool . the state stopped approx 100 yards from one of the biggest beaver dams in the stream dispite 1 persons efforts to keep the dams open and the beavers busy with other projects..

Ive bow hunted that stream from 1987 to 2008 the same log jams were there for the 21 years i walked every foot of that stream,, for 20 pluss days during bow season,, for every one of those 21 years. did you know in 1987 it was almost more common to see mating pairs of " landlocks" in the 7 to 8 lb range than browns in the fall... And i can assure you the log jams that (Ill bet 10.00 )are still there as in 2008 my last hunt there,,

existed only because 1 (person) had no way to move 4 ft dia willows,, but brush saws and pry logs some how keeped some of the smaller paths open under them (so ive been told)....So If the improvements have been made sence 2008 then you are 100% right to dissagree and i hope your right .....But I think if we took a walk there tomorrow id be walkin outa the woods with 10.00 more in my pocket than yerself...I willeven show ya the tree i shot my first Bow Buck from , every deer trail in those swamps,the paths you can follow that wont end up to your neck in "quick mud"', ill show you the old axcess bridge area that was still used in 1965,behind the origional (mercury Plant),,,,So i geuss what i an saying i know every inch of that stream like the back of my hand...

Ps I offered my suggestions and ideas to "avon" office many,many,many time and was told my knowlage of water Hydrolics, Was 0 to none basicly,,Too bad we didnt know the guy who built the deversoins ditches with a entraching tool (bet that rat snuck it in there in a backpack that rat),layed up 2 diversion dams with 8 in trees and accumulated tarps and other debris found along the creek and the log jams that stood up against 5 years of spring thaws,ill bet that guy grew up with a creek in his backyard and spent every min of his childhood playing in thet creek

[Second Chance 22]

Ray, do you remember when:

Trout season in the tribs closed October 30? Today the fall runs are hammered without regard to the resource. (those 7 pound landlocks wouldn't stand a chance, in a small creek the ones that aren't caught legally would are lifted)

It was illegal to use or possess fish eggs whole or crushed on the tribs. Any dolt (even me) can catch rainbows on eggs. Plus, hens that should be spawning are killed for their spawn. When was the last time you saw someone fishing a sponge?

A snagged rainbow was immediately returned to the water. The introduction of the Pacific Salmon changed all of that. Many lifters don't make any effort to fish legally instead concentrating on snagging fish in the mouth.

We are lucky we have any rainbows at all, we have done nothing to protect them.

[indian]

My personal and probably not to awfully, popular preference would be for the DEC to cut out all of the non native fish period...that means rainbows, browns, pacific salmon, ect....Ray was seeing the remnants of the once native land locks back in the day. He's also right on the rest of what he said.

Oh and in my honest opinion...the non native SMELT are coming back now..my belief is the water fleas are there new forage. The Finger lakes aren't changing as much as everyone says they are to be honest. The zebra mussels are cleaning up the water, the flea's are now forage for smolt, alewives, and smelt......it's status que IMHO.

[Second Chance 22]

Landlocks were not native to Keuka Lake. They were introduced there in 1976.

[indian]

Uh, They were RE-introduced in 1976. The only salmonids native to any of the finger lakes were land lock salmon and lake trout. They died out due to spawning ground loss and lake pollution in the late 1800's in all of the finger lakes. The state started there recovery program back in the late 60's.

[Fish Junkie]

Ray,

The creek has no significant brush piles or log jams from Hammonsport-pleasant Valley rd. down to the lake. Have fished that stretch the last few seasons. As a matter of fact I think there is only a single tree crossong the stream in that entire stretch. They went through with a dozer about 3 seasons ago. Stream is pretty much a straight shot from behind the winery to behind the old Mercury plant on the south edge of the village. There is several large limestone boulder diggers behind the winery (now Mercury) and above the Hammondsport-Pleasant Valley Rd. bridge that I believe were placed there during that same time they went through the stream (2 or 3 years ago?). Should check it out and while your there, mark that tree for me for bow season. I will let you keep your 10.00 bucks.

[ray koziatek]

yup to the long history of the landlocks,,,,as far as the smelt...hmm lets see lampracide ,will only kill small fish ,smolts,and eels,,,If properly mixed to the current waterflow,gosh i cant understand what happened to all the smelt in the fingers..

belive it or not to you new guys back in the day (pre 1986) if it took you more than 10 min to get your limit of smelt ,in almost any stream or ditch in seneca,,,,,,,,,you were sitting on shore sippin a beer.

The DEC started agressive eel treatment around 1986 by 1993 you had to spend the night to get your limit if you were lucky... now 99% gone if not 100%...

lets weigh the benifits to the loss.....fewer lakers with eels,or kill all the smelt and 50% or better all the brown ,landlock,and brown smolts..

gosh i only got a 12th grade edgabucation so im not shure on this one.

[ray koziatek]

well time does fly and its great news the stream is cleared.. er um hey i was just jokin about the 10 dollar deal unless i go up to see if yer right and yer not,,,if they replaced the pre flood coffers and pass out a few spring and fall tickets the population would pop back pretty fast....some times its GREAT to be wrong..thank you..

[Second Chance 22]

Indian, I respectfully disagree. Landlocked Salmon were not native to the Finger Lakes- or any other lake in NYS. The landocks native range was Maine and Quebec before stocking extended its range.

Ocean going Atlantic Salmon were native to several lakes in New York. They returned from the Atlantic Ocean via the St. Lawrence river and Lake Ontario to to spawn in the tribs of Oneida, Seneca and Cayuga. This is documented in the fishes of NYS (1843).

You are correct that dams blocked their spawning runs and wiped out the populations in Oneida, Cayuga and Seneca.

Seth Green wrote of catching Salmon/Trout from Keuka in 1873, but these were not landlocks -they were in fact lakers.

[jerktroller]

The decline in smelt had nothing to do with lamprey control using lampricide. Lamprey control in the Finger Lakes only occurrs on Seneca and Cayuga. Keuka and Canandaigua have also had declines in smelt populations and lamprey are not found there so lampricide has not been used in any of the tributaries of those lakes. It does seem like smelt are making a bit of a comeback though.

[ray koziatek]

opps sorry jerk troller i was going by the results of the research done by ,Cornell Univ. the DEC officers i talked to "off the record" ,what ive seen with my own eyes ,and from every bait shop and dealer ive spoken to on this Issue ,,,,,i suppose lampracide didnt kill those 1000's of walleyes in sandy creek a couple years back they removed with 10 wheel dump trucks (might be wrong on the creek) and second chance hate to tell ya but my brother brought home L.L. from cold brook long long before 1986 (me too)

[ray koziatek]

here are a bunch more liars..............

http://blog.syracuse.com/outdoors/2008/ ... catio.html

[Second Chance 22]

Hey Ray, please go back and read my post. I said 1976, NOT 1986. I'm sure it didn't take you ten years to catch one........you're alot better than that!!!

[ray koziatek]

I knew that

[jerktroller]

I didn't say lampricide has never killed a fish. The point is that lampreys do not exist in Keuka or Canandaigua and therefore chemical treatments were never needed in Cold Brook or Naples Creek. There must have been some other factor that led to the smelt decline in these two lakes.

[indian]

Atlantic salmon and landlocked salmon are the same fish species, different strain. The actual strain of finger lakes landlocks are probably gone to history now. I know back in the late 80's Cornell was doing an awful lot of DNA testing in salmon creek(yep the indians named that creek long before white people arrived, we just translated it) to see if they could find remnants of the native strain. Again, Keuka, Seneca, Cayuga, Canandagua, Owasco all were home to lake white fish, lake trout, and LANDLOCKED Atlantic salmon populations prior to 1840. The common consensus is that all three species were present when the last ice sheets receded back into Canada, they moved into these lakes because the impasses were not there due to much higher water levels. I wrote a paper on this in high school and have talked with an awful lot of marine biologists over the years. Like I said, IMHO, what the DEC has done to some of these water sheds with the introduction of trash fish(i.e. pacific salmon, german brown trout, western rainbows, ect, ect) is just short of sinful to me. But thats my opinion.

And again, what Ray and his brother were catching was something special indeed I have a feeling, the DEC's re-introduction program didn't really get going to any level before 1984 or so. For what secondchance22 wrote to be true, all of the finger lakes would have historical populations of lamprey eals, gobys, ect, ect. And we all know that isn't true at all. They didn't enter the lakes until man by-passed the impasses and hooked the river and stream systems together. These species did not move into the water sheds at the time of the ice sheets was because water temps were much to cold and pure for to many months of the year to support lampreys and the rest..

[Netbender]

Being new to Keuka (3 years fishing with about 400 hours on the boat trolling) I have had the same results with the many many Lakers found and smoked. BUT, not much more......

My past experience is around 15 years of fishing out of Fair Haven on Ontario. I saw what happened to that town and area as the DEC played around with funding and stocking programs. It has since come back tremendously from 10 years ago or so.

All the information from the past is truly amazing and also very sad to me, having just invested in a property by the College. There must be something that can be done. Do not under estimate the power of organization and the amount of knowledge we all have on this board. Sounds like several folks have attempted single contributions, or offers to correct, volunteered time and efforts, etc. Is there any chance of a unified approach??

Will listen to the more experienced fisherman here, but also would like to offer encouragement. This is a beautiful lake and needs a bit more then Lakers to keep folks interested.

Regards, Dave

[Second Chance 22]

Indian, you're not much on facts are you?

Goby's are native to the Ponto Caspian region and would have never entered the Great Lakes without the help of man transporting them in freighters to the Great Lakes. They were first detected in the St. Clair River in 1990, so historically speaking they just got here.

Lamprey Eels were first detected in Lake Erie in 1921. They probably entered the Great Lakes via the Hudson River/Erie Canal route. Lampreys weren't detected in Lake Ontario until 1935- so historically speaking, your arguement doesn't make any sense.

That the Atlantic Salmon in Lake Ontario, Cayuga and Seneca were ocean going and not landlocked is well documented. In those days the Oswego River was nor blocked by hydro dams and the Seneca River didn't have locks. These salmon couldn't access the other Fingers- that's why there weren't any there.

DEC does some stuff that I don't agree with, but don't blame them for introducing Rainbows and Browns- that was done without their help, way before the DEC existed. I dare say that most don't agree with your opinion that rainbows, browns, pacific salmon are trash fish, but to each his own.

[indian]

Seth Green wrote of catching Salmon/Trout from Keuka in 1873, but these were not landlocks -they were in fact lakers.

Hey you said it right there, Landlocked Atlantic's were well documented in all of the lakes I mentioned. I doubt a guy would call the same fish, lake trout and salmon, he caught two distinct fish. Before this becomes a flame fest, lets just say my life long dream as a kid was to become a marine biologist. One that will not come true, however Its been my life's passion. I have been active in study and projects around the great lakes. Your opinion is fine as far as non-native fish species goes, don't under estimate that many others feel opposite of your opinion however. When the DEC started planting nonnative "carp"(or Pacific salmon) in the lakes, they did this because the level of pollution was such that native fish species just couldn't thrive, they also stated back then that these fish could never reproduce naturally. Now it seems we are stuck with them, Ask any old timer in Michigan whats become of the lake run brookies, whats become of the native brookie population in any stream these trash fish enter in the fall, ask them about other native populations.......thats just lake Huron. It's fine that it's good for the economy, native ecosystems however........

Note I'm no purist, but what I don't like is mounds of rotting fish stinking up my fly fishing area's, one reason I rarely go around the great lakes these days.

**wow what a rant....lol, my last reply on the subject,cheers.**

[ray koziatek]

ut oh time for the PEACE PIPE .. hey wouldnt it be a shame if one of those tanks at the hatchery accedently got dumped into that little feeder stream..