What the DEC is up to behind the scenes!

[Yankee Troller]

I have a friend at the DEC. He called me all panic stricken yesterday. He received a memo asking the question: "Of all the Fall egg take programs we participate in, which one(s) can we cut out?" Kind of weird how they just increased fees and they still can't afford to make it happen? I want to stress that this was just a memo sent around to managers within the DEC. Nothing in stone, but they are trying to cut some things in the background. If they can do it to one of these programs it's opening the door to many others. He said he will try to be my guy on the inside, and wants me to get the word out to the people who really care, and the people who will fight this. I don't see any better group of people than the ones right here on this site.

He also told me that since the state cut overtime they have not been able to do their jobs and key procedures have been overlooked. This resulted in a pretty good sized fish die off this Spring. He was infuriated! As much as we love these fish for the sport of it. They love these fish like we love our pets. They are their baby's.

[Shade]

Rick,

Just let us know what you want us to do.

Howie

[Yankee Troller]

Right now it is all just informative info we need to keep our eyes on.

[Tall Tails]

Thanks for the info Rick!

[Misty IV]

Good information to have. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Gill-T]

Rick, we need to introduce your buddy to my buddy in the DEC. The stuff going on right now with the DEC is unbelievable. When the top positions are political appointees with no outdoor experience other than looking at bird feeders in the morning, bad decisions will be made. The head of the DEC has been on record as stating he would just as soon do away with the DEC!!! Politicians look at the dept. as waste of taxpayer dollars because they cannot quantify an economic benefit. Now that tourism is the number one industry in New York, you would think Albany could see the light regarding the WORLD CLASS fishery we have with the great lakes. Instead, they pay new recruits 35-40,000 per year to live in Long Island, while state troopers who get less training come out earning 70,000. The State has halted DEC recruitment classes at the acedemy for the last two years with no end in site. Older officers are seeing the writing on the wall and retiring fed-up. My greatest fear may be coming true that the imprint machines designed to test natural reproduction may be used one day as ammunition to cut stocking. I have tried sounding the alarm before, requesting members e-mail politicians how important the DEC and our natural recources are, but had not received any replies to my posts. Believe it!!!! this crap is real. Get on the phone, computer etc. and make some noise!

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Several of us have been warning of this for years! Yes, that is exactly why they are so interested in the natural reproduction study. Gill-T, EVERYTHING you say is true. If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, THEN IT IS A RAT!

I'm afraid we are in for another difficult year collecting eggs. We will have less heading upstream on the Salmon, for starters. Absolutely unbelievable after the last time this happened, no contingency plan was put in place. Yes, the long term goal is to wean us off Pacific salmon.

[skipper19]

Well I guess the politicians and DEC management have forgotten the other benefits of having the Pacifics in the lakes besides the sport fishing industry. I was sure that at first when the salmon were introduced to the lake they were meant as a means to "clean" up the overpopulation of Alewife and other invasive species that spoiled the lake front and water quality. Huge die offs of stinking alewife washing up on shore were a real turnoff and didn't help the tourism at all.

Rick, I will help in any way possible to bring light on this subject. Keep us informed gentlemen.

There IS something we ALL can do.

Hopefully we can vote in a responsible administration this year who will carry positive DEC development on their ballot, along with a reasonable plan for a balanced budget IN THE BLACK THIS TIME.

I am studying the agenda of the ones who have tossed their hat in and I will ask the questions that need an answer to our concerns. With what is in Albany right now there is no hope......vote the deadwood out for many reasons to save NY.

Mark

[fish tech]

My greatest fear may be coming true that the imprint machines designed to test natural reproduction may be used one day as ammunition to cut stocking.

If the results of the 5 year project (started in 2008) to fin clip and put a coded wire tag in all stocked chinooks show that natural reproduction ("wild fish") make up a substantial portion of the chinook population in the lake, then why shouldn't the number of hatchery chinooks be reduced?

The lake can only support a finite amount of biomass. Overstocking will lead to smaller chinook sizes and a crash in the forage base.

[Tim Bromund]

My greatest fear may be coming true that the imprint machines designed to test natural reproduction may be used one day as ammunition to cut stocking.

If the results of the 5 year project (started in 2008) to fin clip and put a coded wire tag in all stocked chinooks show that natural reproduction ("wild fish") make up a substantial portion of the chinook population in the lake, then why shouldn't the number of hatchery chinooks be reduced?

The lake can only support a finite amount of biomass. Overstocking will lead to smaller chinook sizes and a crash in the forage base.

Well, to answer your question: Because the Salmon river is the only South Shore Trib producing significant numbers of wild fish, so in a perfect world, that should be the location that sees the reduced hatchery fish. However since that is the river that the hatchery is on and they need to ensure that they have sufficient returns to the hatchery, that is the one location on the the lake that is bulletproof from ever seeing stocking reductions.

If they cut back stocking on the lake, it will be at the expense of every other stocking site on the lake EXCEPT FOR the one that is producing the wild fish that caused the stocking reductions in the first place.

Tim

[Self Censored]

Over 2 years ago I posted on this site that this would happen. What do you think? Cut police, fire, teachers, government, highways, prisons, Thruway? No the fishing will go first. It is not time to sell the boat yet, but I would not advise borrowing money to buy one!!

We can scream, yell, compain and moan all we want, but at the end of the day there will still be no money and the death of this fishery will come.

Don't get the idea that I am happy about it................I am as pissed as any of you. It is just reality. This is what happens to a good program (stocking salmon & trout) because when GOV. wanted to have the Hatchery guys cut to a 4 day week (they and many other state employees) they said no way. When teachers were asked to have 25 kids in their classroom instead of 15 they said no way. When cops were asked to have single riders they said no way. When the unemployed were asked to get a job they said no way.

When we said let our license money pay for our sport they said Yell Hes, then the dastarbs stole the money and screwed us over.

Sorry I was not able to self censor as much as I should have .... Hank you may have to step in!!

Skipper, I agree with your premise, but there is no one stepping up on either side that has the balls to do what it takes in NY or in the country for that matter. For the first time in my life I am envious of New Jersey!!

[final flight]

i would say that we need to really get behind (with our finacial support) all the pen rearing projects that are in place right now!! my beleif is that they are the reason there will be a 40 lber caught this fall and lets not forget the people on the other side of the pond! GOD bless rollie

[skipper19]

The pen rearing projects are great.....but the eggs and fry still come from the Salmon river hatchery. The very place where the cutbacks, if any, would affect. All the expense of running the pen rearing projects are not entirely on the backs of the volunteers. There are countless things that are still funded by tax payer money, all the way down to the fuel to run the trucks to transport the fish, food for the fish, and the folks who run them to all the designated ports. I might be wrong on how much of the process that the DEC spends of tax payer money on the pen rearing projects in cooperation with the volunteers. Maybe someone knows more about the amount of expense handled by the volunteers could elaborate. The trucks show up and the people that run them I would believe,,, are on the state payroll somewhere. It's all in jeopardy if anything is cut back anywhere that involves the hatchery egg take.

Mark

[LongLine]

As far as I know the Chinook egg-take only happens on the SR near the hatchery. (except in 2007) SR returns are the “brood stock†for the NY side. Altmar is the only US hatchery raising them for Lake Ontario.

The 2009 report (fall egg collection)

Returns of Pacific salmon in the fall included 2,810 Chinook salmon (785 females) and 4,594 coho salmon. Biological data were collected at the hatchery from 897 Chinook and 376 coho. The egg totals were 3.3 million Chinook from 661 females and 1.8 million coho from 675 females

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lorpt09.pdf

The 2008 report (fall egg collection)

A return to more typical fall temperature and flow levels from the abnormally warm and dry 2007 conditions contributed to a successful 2008 egg take. Returns included 5,955 Chinook salmon (1,532 females) and 3,888 coho salmon. Biological data were collected at the hatchery from 669 Chinook and 340 coho. The egg totals were 3.5 million Chinook from 765 females and 1.9 million coho from 540 females

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... 8sec08.pdf

In 2007, they had the poor returns to the SR so they scrambled and tried to collect eggs at the Black River, Oak Orchard and 18 Mile. The 2007 report (fall egg collection)

The egg totals were 1.01 million Chinook from 224 females and 1.8 million coho from 499 females (Nelson 2008b). The Chinook total was well short of the target (3.5 million). Likely due to temperature stress on female salmon during egg development, egg survival to the eyed stage was reduced to 64% for Chinook eggs (average 84%) and 15% for coho (average 43%) resulting in approximately 639,000 eyed Chinook eggs and 275,000 eyed coho eggs collected at the Salmon River Hatchery. Additional emergency Chinook egg collections conducted at several tributaries resulted in 68,000 eyed-eggs from Black River, 21,000 from Oak Orchard Creek and 366,000 from Eighteenmile Creek. Chinook stocking levels in 2008 will be reduced to approximately 800,000 fish (target 1.76 million) due to reduced egg take and survival in 2007.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... 07sec9.pdf

The 2006 report (fall egg collection)

Fall returns to the hatchery included 4,921 Chinook salmon and 5,845 coho salmon. The egg totals were 3.53 million Chinook from 681females and 1.77 million coho from 633 females (Nelson 2007b). Biological data were collected from 630 Chinook and 333 coho.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... 06sec9.pdf

The 2005 report (fall egg collection)

Fall returns to the hatchery included 8,132 Chinook salmon and 2,541 coho salmon. The egg totals were 3.2 million Chinook from 644 females and 1.6 million coho from 522 females (Everard 2006b). Biological data were collected from 754 Chinook and 210 coho.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_ ... 05sec9.pdf

I talked to a couple DEC Bio's for the Angler Survey on the Genny today, and they said it was just a rumor. They also said the big ones that I didn't catch today were the missing ones from the 2007 class. (Obviously Nat Repo did not make up for that year class stocking shortfall)

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Very necessary post. Fish Tech, by your user name you are probably a new Temp or DEC new hire. Many of us are tired of hearing the "sky is falling" bio mass scare tactics. Thank you for your contribution, but here are some FACTS: The Lake Ontario forage base has never showed signs of over-predation from Salmonoids. The truth is, we put existing forage base populations in peril, by not having ENOUGH predators to level out the population in relation to their food source. When we see the numbers of GIANT alewives that we have all season, we know they weren't cropped off enough by the population of Salmon in the Lake. This creates an imbalance, leaving the older large alewives vulnerable to crowding in limited winter habitat, increasing the likelihood of a die-off either in the winter or late spring. These large over-populated alewives are the ones that eradicate hatches of Lake Trout, Walleye, Yellow perch and young-of-the-year alewives. The predation on the newly hatched Alewives is what causes the huge spikes and valleys in the Alewife populations. Increased populations of Pacific Salmon would even this out, create a slightly smaller but healthier population. Catch rates would increase on the target Salmon, forage base populations would stablize, native species hatches would survive better, and the whole system would be better off

We already planting half the number of Salmon that we were in the late 80's, the Feds haven't been able to hit the target number of stocked Lakers in many years, and in the DEC's own words, some years the entire hatch of "wild" Chinook in the Salmon river is lost due to predation. It is foolish to rely on wild Chinook hatches to carry the fishery and control the Alewife enough to keep their population healthy. This Salmon fishery that we have here doesn't "cost" taxpayers at all. It drives an economic shot-in -the -arm that is enormous, and brings in alot more tax dollars than its cost.

[Lund SSS]

Over 2 years ago I posted on this site that this would happen.

How's that, you only joined in June of this year ????

[MCF]

With the second latest state budget passed this week and nobody being happy about it, and the fiasco that occurred in the State Senate last year and also another bloated budget, all of our Assembly reps and State Senators are up for election this fall. It is up to us to do our homework and find out who is running to represent us. Not every rep is bad, we just need new faces in office that can listen to us. A bloated medicaid program should have been cut to at least get it in line with our neighboring states and would free up money to get to the programs we are interested in.

Do you research and make sure YOU VOTE IN NOVEMBER.

[Self Censored]

Self Censored wrote:

Over 2 years ago I posted on this site that this would happen.

How's that, you only joined in June of this year ????

Over 2 years ago I posted on this site that this would happen.

How's that, you only joined in June of this year ????

Re-joined -- used to be a contributor -- now just a user

[FISHINMAN]

You should seek some counseling for being a "user"

[Cannonball Runner]

Its time to vote out anyone thats in office currently. Rick let us know what we can do. One thing is maybe we stop letting them get info from us if they are going to use it against us.

[jimski2]

Since we have a New York City Lawyer running things like the "bait fiasco", it is time we elect a Governor who will appoint a competent person that understands Fish and Wildlife Issues that we are really concerned about.

[TOP SECRET]

I always wondered why they couldn't sell all the "excess fish" at the hatchery to something like a cat food factory? I'm actually pretty serious. Even if it only raised $50k, that's a lot of money.

Nick

[ontariofisher]

I have a couple of questions maybe some of you could answer. Does the federal govt still stock fish? Also, how many of these stocked fish can actually reproduce succesfully? The water quality in the rivers isnt good enough i thought. See what happens when a democrat runs the federal and state governments?

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

The feds provide lake trout, as it is part of their native species restoration program. They have had problems hitting target numbers due to aging hatcheries and funding shortfalls.

Several species successfully reproduce in Lake Ontario tribs. Young Kings, Cohos, and Steelheads have all been documented as naturally hatched fish. The water quality continues to improve, so much so that there are new lamprey spawning sites discovered every year. lamprey thrive as water quality in tribs improves.

[salmonboy41]

Well siad Vince, the amount of bait out there is crazy and all of the alwieves i see in the stomachs in the fish that i have cleaned are huge aka backing up what you are saying. If anything i think this year has shown that the DEC is really just saying we don't have the money or don't want to spend the extra money to stock more fish because that would mean some big gov't guy won't get to line he's pocket.