"American Sportfishing Assn: Oppose lead ban"

[Gator]

I've said my piece on this issue, but I will include a link to the request for legislation as submitted to the EPA, which includes many, many pages of references in respected scientific journals that support their view:

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/ ... 6480b37fc2

I suspect that the proposal is purposely broad in scope in order to elicit a reaction from sportsmen and the fishing industry. Oftentimes it takes the threat of legislation for folks to recognize which way the wind is blowing and start to police themselves. I seriously doubt that the legislation as proposed will pass muster, but it will certainly put the subject on the radar and perhaps lead to some voluntary compromise in the future.

[Matthew]

Two problems with your argument, Jaychuter.

The first is that you suggest the stuff has been around forever...before we were even on the planet. That's a naive view. Yes, lead has existed as long as the world. But not in a concentrated and purified form. Moreover, it's the accumulation of lead in the environment and chronic exposure that's thought to be a problem. Try sleeping, eating and breathing lead, then make the call.

Second, the biggest problem with lead is birth defects. Forget about the fish and game. Let's talk about a kid who might have lived a normal life, but instead was born with a debilitating illness that requires constant care and breaks the bank. It's one thing to say, "when it's time to go, it's time to go". It's another thing entirely to sentence someone else.

Finally, I'll add an interesting take on this subject: I read lots of old issues of Outdoor Life from the 1960s that my granddad gave me. There's a bunch of articles in there from around the time that the use of certain pesticides was being associated with fish and bird kills. The industry reps argued that the pesticides had no role in the kills and that there was no evidence that the cost of using the pesticides outweigh the benefits. Of course, I'm talking about DDT, one of the most well-recognized carcinogens on the planet.

The use of DDT probably saved as many lives from malaria as it killed, so it's use was somewhat justified. How's that compare with lead? Has lead saved many lives lately? Seems like a crime to me to ignore the facts for convenience sake.

Alcohol creates the largest amounts of birth defects, it's been around for centuries so should we ban the use of alcohol?

When used improperly anything is lethal, education is the key.

We use lead but we coat the lead with plastic so people are not touching the raw lead and then eating food later on as this is where the biggest danger is. I have personally been in contact with each Torpedo Diver we have made, from pouring to paint preparation ( we are approaching the 10,000 mark). Every year I have my blood tested for lead and my lead levels have not changed for 3 years.

I don't believe scare tactics are the answer, I believe education is the answer.

I have also checked into the costs to make Torpedo Divers out of Tungsten and costs are 15 times current costs. I have looked into zinc but zinc weighs almost 40% less then lead and wouldn't be very efficient. The closest usable metal is copper which is 30% lighter.

If lead is banned then rods and reels will have to become much bigger to handle the much larger amounts of drag caused by less efficient metals.

I also agree that most fishing tackle will drastically increase in price and would become less efficient.

[rolmops]

Help Fight Unreasonable Bans on Fishing Tackle

From the American Sportfishing Association

http://www.asafishing.org/government/po ... 92910.html

"On Wednesday, September 28, Senator Blanche Lincoln (D-AR) introduced S.3850, which seeks to prevent an overarching federal ban on lead in recreational fishing tackle. If enacted, this ban will have a significant economic impact on the recreational fishing industry.

This says it all.It is not about dangerous or poisonous.It is about the money big business makes selling lead products.

There are quite a few lead mines in Arizona.

Are you willing to defend and help the companies that are poisoning the world around you just because it has been done that way for a long long time?.

[fish or swim]

I am in complete agreement with the posts on here that say that lead can be bad for the environment and peoples' health. And I do agree that something should be done to reduce the amount of lead (and all heavy metals and toxic chemicals while we are it) in the environment. The problem with banning lead fishing equipment is it is not going to solve any of these problems. The amount of lead contamination that comes from fishing tackle is basically an insignificant factor. Like I stated before emissions are a huge problem plus a few others-mining. The heavy metals leave the coal stacks (and other sources) travel through the air and end up in the water, in the rivers and lakes. As the metals travel up the food chain they become increasingly concentrated in the top predators. Saying that birds are getting lead poisoning from eating lead sinkers is really not accurate. But it makes for exciting headlines in the news so these so-called 'environmental' groups try to take advantage of that for publicity and fund raising purposes.

Don't take some 7 post new guy's word for it (mine). Look it all up. It is widely documented. Take a careful look at the numbers from the mining and coal industry. Then look at the fishing equipment numbers. Specifically the amount of equipment that is lost every year and the amount that actually makes it into a bird's mouth. That should give a bit of a shocking idea of the scope of the problem.

We don't have to wait for regulations to try and fix this problem. We can conserve energy around the house and be careful with purchases of all potentially dangerous materials as a way to try and help out. I have been doing these things for years. I haven't seen that the world change because of my actions but I will continue to do it anyways.

[Gator]

Scare tactics are sometimes necessary to counter knee-jerk reactions. Nobody likes to be told someone is going to take away their toys, myself included. Education is, as Matthew stated, the key. But in order to bypass the default reaction (ie nobody's going to ban my stuff!) and make folks think about educating themselves sometimes we need to consider the worst case scenario.

I don't think that lead fishing lures are going to kill anybody (except maybe my boat fishing partner, but that's another story ), but I wouldn't bet the house against their having an impact on cognitive potential. And I applaud Matthew for having annual lead testing performed. That's smart.

I think that so long as people take the time to consider the issue rationally, maybe look through some of the data, then we can have an intelligent conversation about pros, cons, and alternatives. Fish or swim had a good point about the lead in fishing tackle paling in comparison to other sources. He also has a great attitude regarding responsibility and social/environmental awareness. I guess my own attitude is that I'm willing to give up lead if it will make a difference. I'm not convinced either way as of yet, but I'm not going to take the knee-jerk reaction.

[LongLine]

I read some of those links & lead is definitely an interesting subject. No doubt if a creature has excessive exposure to lead dust, ingests lead paint chips or sucks on a lead sinker, it’ll have health problems.

I guess I could understand it in hunting or skeet shooting with a shot gun, from a quantity standpoint, when in a single shot a few pellets, that are roughly 1/8-3/16†in diameter, hit the target and the rest (10-30) end up lying in the field somewhere. It’s possible that an animal may come along & eat some of the thousands lying there. However it’s also quite possible that the same creature would also eat the steel, copper, zinc or any other shot that didn’t hit the target.

It appears that the similarity in shape & size between buckshot & split shot is what indicts the later. The petitioners obviously are not familiar with many forms of fishing. They’ve taken a case where split shot may or may not be used and state why shot is detrimental. They then go further with generalizations implying that lead containing fishing products are bad for wildlife.

Jigs are basically a dressed up hook with a lead head. If a bird eats it, wouldn’t the hook kill it, as it rips his throat apart while swallowing, before the ingested lead does it in? A bird isn’t going to lick a jig like an ice cream cone. Some of us have had birds chase our lures & actually hooked them. Again wouldn’t the hook kill them if they swallowed it by ripping up their guts, before the paint does them harm?

As far as sinkers go, when a fisherman gets a snag and loses his sinker, it means the line broke between his sinker and the reel. A bird would have to either dig it out from what it’s snagged on and or contend with the hook and line. Again we’re talking one, two, three, split shot per snag and not 10-30 per shotgun round. Other lead weights that trollers or still fishermen use are also much larger than shot.

Just because a sinker is made from a different material doesn’t mean a bird won’t eat it, if it’s so inclined to eat sinkers. Zinc, copper, steel will also harm them.

The only birds I’ve seen stabbing at the water & moving rocks are storks, heron, flamingos and they’ve only been in water that’s a few inches deep. I’ve seen films of birds swimming through the water chasing fish but never of any digging through the bottom trying to free up anything directly off the bottom or moving underwater rocks in water that is deep enough to require sinkers in.

I’ve never heard of an Eagle diving like a Loon in 60 FOW for a meal. Eagles don’t have webbed feet & don’t sit or swim in the water. In fact, the studies blame lead poisoning for water fowl fatalities, but unless I missed it, how many Loons have been found with sinkers in their stomachs?

The EPA says “lead does not dissolve in water†& alkyl-lead is the “bad guyâ€, not elemental lead. http://www.epa.gov/grtlakes/bns/lead/steplead.html. It’s still an additive in aviation fuel. Now I understand lead oxides and a lot of that good stuff however Alkyl-lead is lead that has combined with carbon. Someone is going to have to explain to me how elemental lead used in sinkers becomes Alkyl-lead via fishing with it.

Another point is that in one of the links cited, it talks about total tonnage of lead used by manufacturers of fishing gear and facetiously asks whether fishermen have vast collections of it. These writers obviously don’t know fishing at all. I have over 150 Lbs of it just in downrigger weights alone but I only use them two at a time. BTW, I haven’t lost a weight or a sinker in over 15 years.

A problem with the proposed alternative materials is that many fishermen like to make their own sinkers & weights. Although titanium is heavier, cost is out of this world. Other metals would require us to own blast furnaces. Tin doesn’t flow for nothing in molds. (I’ve tried it) Glass or ceramic would require kilns and would be a real challenge to bottom bounce with. Sand weights might work but getting the shape right or preventing them from ripping apart over jagged bottom terrain would be tough.

I’d like to see a little more definitive data concerning the sources of the lead that’s causing these avian fatalities. Don’t assume a duck that died from lead poisoning ate sinkers. Lead is all around us. Aviation fuel/exhaust, off-road vehicle fuel, reading glasses, sunglasses with glass lenses, machined brass/copper/stainless steel fittings, hardware & screws, keys, stained glass, fine crystal & glassware, regular window glass that’s over 20 years old…

Tom B.

(LongLine)

Ps those health warnings on metal products usually concern carcinogens. Lead is not carcinogenic. It’s the nickel that’s a problem…in California.

[rolmops]

Tom all of what you say makes sense and is generally accepted,but it does not take a lot of other things in consideration.

Let's start with the guys who like to make their own weights. They heat up the lead and pour it in shapes and forms often inhaling the fumes. Most people do this outside but some people do it in the kitchen on the gas range.........

The journey that lead sinkers make from the mine to the store takes it through stores where it is kept in small plastic bags which are often fingered by children.Then when you take your little kids fishing,they will handle that lead while it is wet. I remember my oldest son play with the little lead ball sinkers and stick one in his nose where it got stuck.We had to take him to the emergency room to have it removed from his nose.

We like to take our kids out in nature and teach them how to fish,while at the same time we expose them to lead far more then we would at home.

There are many alternatives to lead which deserve consideration.

[ray koziatek]

Hey I dont know longline ,my son and i just got home from a 10 mile river kayak,canoe trip. In the 20 miles one way from home to drop off first van i saw 5 racoons ,1 opossum,and 2 red tail hawks.and a young fox. All dead ill bet it was the lead wheel weights laying along the road after they ate them they went crazy and ran into traffic.. gues we'll all have to drive around with bumpy wheels(outa ballance)....hey gold is a heavy metal and really safe to mine , and cheep i just bought a really heavy gold braclet from a guy on the corner for 5 bucks bet it weighs 2 oz.

Ive been to gettysburg several time in me life and the lead bullits still have the groves and the balls are round as the day they were shot 150 yrs ago. but i ant no expert.but i does know lead solder was used in copper water lines till early 80,s so if yer house is older and got copper pipe you might be nuts.

[Matthew]

Hey I dont know longline ,my son and i just got home from a 10 mile river kayak,canoe trip. In the 20 miles one way from home to drop off first van i saw 5 racoons ,1 opossum,and 2 red tail hawks.and a young fox. All dead ill bet it was the lead wheel weights laying along the road after they ate them they went crazy and ran into traffic.. gues we'll all have to drive around with bumpy wheels(outa ballance)....hey gold is a heavy metal and really safe to mine , and cheep i just bought a really heavy gold braclet from a guy on the corner for 5 bucks bet it weighs 2 oz.

Ive been to gettysburg several time in me life and the lead bullits still have the groves and the balls are round as the day they were shot 150 yrs ago. but i ant no expert.but i does know lead solder was used in copper water lines till early 80,s so if yer house is older and got copper pipe you might be nuts.

Ray you make a good point about older homes. Most homes older then 50 years have lead services, meaning the water flows from the city main through lead pipes into the home. Shouldn't this be the first place of concern?

There is another side of this story that has not been addressed and that is the demand for lead. The demand for lead batteries has increased dramatically over the past 5 years, first from developing countries in the form of new car sales and second from North America in the form of green cars. These green cars use many batteries and it's the large amounts of lead that make those batteries so heavy. Ask any scrap yard who there major buyer of lead is and chances are a battery manufacturer tops the list.

There is an interesting coincidence that lead demand has increased dramatically and lead users are being scared out of the market.

[LongLine]

Rolmops - I don’t mean to be “knee-jerk†here but those people that melt lead in the kitchen are already nuts. They risk burning their house down, not to mention P-ing Off the wife. Lead should only be melted where there is plenty of ventilation. (And don’t stand downwind)

I glad your son was okay; emergency rooms can be traumatic, sometimes more for the parents than the kids. As for little kids ingesting things, I believe they do it because of the size/color & curiosity. I wouldn’t want a kid to ingest a plastic bead off a fly leader. Child proofing (if that’s possible) a home, shop or boat is something that we should all be aware of and strive for. I know my kids were taught very early to keep out of my fishing stuff: 1 because hooks are extremely sharp & 2. Its Dad’s – paws off! (A few years back, I had a winter hobby of making kid’s hardwood toys which the wife sold at craft shows. The law then was that no parts could fit through a 1 3/8†diameter circle.)

Ray – Next time you stop at the “RoadKill Caféâ€, ask the chef if he’s found any lead in the stomach of the House Special. House plumbing is a very good example, however Rochester & the Monroe Cnty Water Authority recommend just letting the tap water run for a minute, then drink it. Many houses used to have lead water pipes, not just the soldered copper ones. Many steel drains/sewage pipes still have leaded joints.

As far as battery lead goes, wait till you see what’s required for solar power.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Gator]

Years ago at the UofR there was an incident where a pregnant lady was the first one in to work and filled two liter water bottles from the fountain after it had been sitting in lead pipes all night long. This was at a time when UofR was working hard to replace all of the existing lead pipe, maybe fifteen years ago. Anyway, there was an immense amount of concern over the baby's health and subsequent development. I believe that the kid turned out okay, but it certainly highlighted how serious the issue was and what the potential ramifications could have been.

I think that there are some good points being raised through this discussion. The only conclusion that I really disagree with is that if it isn't the biggest problem, then we shouldn't try to fix it. Banning all lead immediately seems to be an overreaction, but the problem is worth talking about. I think we're going to find strong opinions on both sides of issue. For anyone who's read this thread, I suppose that's a "duh!". But arguing is the first step towards a solution.

Tom--hope you didn't take offense at the "knee jerk" comment. Your threads are well thought out and I think you have a good handle on the problem, even if your final take differs from my own. I was referring to the fact that as sportsmen we're used to being persecuted by the antis and I think that we feel sometimes like we need to resist any change and stand our ground. But if do it without thinking about how solid that ground is first, we're sunk. Sorry for the goofy analogy

[Tim Bromund]

Looks like the EPA actually did something that made sense, lead fishing tackle ban is dead:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/106698048.html

Tim

[ERABBIT]

Then they had to do it again !!!!! This year ......

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/T ... -02-14.pdf