Deer observation and moon phase

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

I'm sure volumes have been written on this subject here, but with the recent excellent threads regarding deer numbers I thought I'd start a new one.

What have you guys seen as for mid- day movement just before and around the opener of gun season? My experience here in NY and on a couple hunts in the past in IL was very poor morning hunts. Mid-day could be good if weather was conducive. Evenings usually OK. I'm wondering if the reports of low sightings this year could in part be due to the Full moon hitting right at the same time the pressure hit. What have you farmers and "students" of wildlife movement observed this year as well as past years? I am specifically talking about natural movement and not bumped or driven deer.

[Reel Doc]

We talked about the rutting moons last month and how Alsheimer said it could be an odd year as the full moon landed on the autumn equinox. Could there be a "Double Rut" this year with a group of does starting late October early November and a second group starting to cycle now?

My little patch of woods says that may be so. Active chase/breeding as early as October 28th, but throughout have glassed groups of does in the fields below our house that have no buck near them 6 out of 7 days. If I'm home at odd times midday, will see deer activity, but it has always been that way in the 15 years we have lived here. I expect with all the deer drives this week on land next to us that the does will "hole up" on our land as they have in years past. The question is will any be cycling to attract a bigger buck into the area. Unlike the many reports posted of bigger bucks this year, I'm not seeing them or sign of them, but my sample size (88 acres) is not very large. Still plenty of good hunting time here, if as noted, the wind dies down.

Happy Thanksgiving to you.

Greg

[Gill-T]

In my mind it is not the phase of moon, it is the amount of light at night (cloudy night skies during even a full moon could make for a good morning hunt). Full moon- no clouds means bucks chasing all night.....so they sleep in until around 10:00 am get up and run their rublines and bed back down around 12:00 (sound like Kings ey' Vince?) You get a push again 1/2 hour before dark. If you can find those DEEP woods spots with food, the bucks will be bedded close by watching the does.

[chowder]

I think that the number of bucks you see as a careful stand hunter is going to be hugely influenced by 2 things; A. The stage of the rut, especially if you are hunting buck travel routes between and among doe cells and B. The number of does in these cells because, as Vince has said earlier, if there are lots of available does to breed w/ out risking exposure a mature buck can seem invisible during daylight. Personally, I think that factor B is more important than exact rut stage in my area. As I've pointed out in other posts it can be very difficult to harvest these does b/c they pattern humans much quicker than we can pattern them, especially when cover is as abundant as they are. As Greg's man Alsheimer has pointed out in numerous articles 'when you have large doe populations that are subjected to heavy hunting pressure it is important to harvest does at the first opportunity not the last'.

Quite frankly I was a far more successful killer of mature bucks years ago when I targeted them in the very early part of bow season because I could pattern their fairly predictable routines/core areas,etc well before the rut began. Now that I'm a much more casual hunter (with a much happier wife) I'm more at the mercy of chance encounters that are influenced by the factors mentioned above and that are largely beyond my control. -Andy

[ray koziatek]

ive been hunting 40 years and their has been a second rut every year ,, it includes the doe who didnt take the first time ,and mostly the yearlings who come into their first heat ... first rut youll see lots of small deer 2nd time around ya see a lot of big does and the little ones are skittish and some what scarce .. if ya live in the same woods as much as i have been able to for the last 40 yrs you know when a deer is missing,or a new one moved into the area..and yes when ya stink up the woods even just walking or touching branches they know ya been there ,,it would be the equivelent of you comming home and finding someone moved your bed when you were out,you would be very suspicious every time you came home and very careful when you entered your domaine..ya might even move to the neighbors house for a while..

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Good stuff guys. Other factors that I am observing now that I am spending more time hunting "piecemeal" parcels is where the ground you can hunt is in relation to sanctuary properties. I know all about those "chance encounters" when hunting near large tracts with absolutely no hunting allowed. They are denser, provide cover and browse year around, and have no legal human intrusion within. The only reason the deer need to leave these properties is to seek additional food sources, which of course can easily wait until after dark. I plan on learning alot more about these spots once the snow is on the ground.

[Legacy]

A subject i can talk all day about... Overall its been a great year for me. After back to back seasons which were borderline awful maybe it was due. I really paid attention to the Early November weather pattern and chose to hunt hard the second week of November. High pressure, frosty am temps, and light winds made it the best (and most consistant) 10 days of the hunting season so far. Deer activity resembled the seek/chase phase perfectly with numerous big bucks sighted on stand during daylight hours. Weather i believe is the most overlooked piece of the puzzle when looking to hunting the rut. Consistant weather keeps the deer movement consistant (just like fishing). Less then ideal weather conditions for the past 2 weeks have put a serious damper on daytime activity and the wind forecast over the next couple of days is 25-30 west winds w/ gusts 30+ mph is sure to put deer on lockdown and even evening feed spots will be vacant till after the sun goes down.

Overall deer sightings for the season have been down for me. Doe/fawn numbers seem to be lower than previous years and 1 1/2 old buck numbers seem to be really low. "Shooter" buck (100+" and outside the ears) numbers seem to be up. My game cams have also confirmed what i have witnessed in the field.

Any theories from anyone on that?

[Gator]

Well, the wind this morning, to my great surprise, didn't play much of a factor (other than freezing my left youknowwhat off). I saw a group of five doe come out of the thick stuff to feed in harvested soybean ~8 am, and then I made the mistake of leaving the stand for a short walk to glass a neighbor's back field. Of course, a hot doe has to pop out 30 yards in front of me, followed by two bucks. The first buck was big, but he was gone before I knew it. The second buck was respectable and stopped to grunt a few times on the edge, which would have given me a shot had I chosen to take it. I don't think that any of the deer recognized that I was there.

So, there's still some life left in the woods after all. Overall, more of an encounter than I was prepared for this morning. Hopefully that hot doe will lead the big boy in a circle past my stand this evening, with me in it. I am counting on losing my right youknowwhat before dark with this wind, though.

[Reel Doc]

Gator,

Hope you got him yesterday as today is twice the wind of yesterday!

No doubt older bucks are savvy, but once gun season opens, all deer are pretty savvy, but sometimes at least around here they follow common sense. Since large tracts of farmland around our property are hunted by a hunting club, I think the deer figure out pretty quickly to hole up in little patches until the dust settles. Neighbors of ours who live on Route 89 along the West side of Cayuga Lake talk of deer in their backyards frequently this time of year. My gun hunting tactics are based on the hunting club boys continually stirring up the deer with drives so they head to the "sanctuaries" around which includes our patch of ground provided we don't overhunt it. Stealth in and out of stand is key, and if I have a DMP left after bow, (like this year), I'll wait to fill it hoping to keep the commotion down and maybe get a big boy to come through. It has worked a couple times over the years, but if it were too easy I guess it wouldn't be as much fun.

Yesterday at about 11:00 am I get home from the office for an early lunch with the family and 6-7 doe meandered through the cut corn on our hillside. Sure enough glassed a buck a few minutes later. They did not act spooked, but certainly they were being pushed as half a dozen vehicles were parked around the club hunting grounds.

The funny thing is, some of the land that the hunting club works is textbook for setting up stands and sitting tight. There are some great wooded areas that are natural funnels with open cropland in between. If those club boys would sit still instead of walking around all the time they would have much better success for sure. I'm not in a hurry to tell them as I'm sure the deer numbers around here would drop.

Greg

[Chautauqua Tony]

My buddy shot a big 8 last night. Buck was just walking in open woods around 4 pm. Nice deer, probably around 170lbs. The neck was still as thick as could be and the tarsal glands were just black and leaking. According to Alshiemers theory this last moon was the rutting moon and the past week was the main breading period. To me, this buck was just more evidence that Charles is on the money with his moon theories. Im hearing of mid day deer activity from all my friends that hunt.

Since reading Charles Alshiemers books, i've become a big believer in his moon theories. I Think a lot of guys get fooled when the see a buck just peaked out on testosterone at the end of October running around like a fool.

[Legacy]

All signs in my neck of the woods point to the breed phase also.

[ray koziatek]

Yup ya gotta belive in something,,,well as a long time hunter ive turned even deeper than the moon >>...Its the quazars ,that guide my hunting rut therory ,ya see every year near november "helen to mergatroid" lines up with "your going hunting again hemoriedxly" galaxies you have to look just left of "yeranis" on a moonless nite.

If you look too far right you might see a black hole (brown if its a full moon).

Also if ya dont get out much at night look for bare spots on the ground under broken branches, or trees rubbed by the keebler elfs looking for a new bakery,they always look to expand shop before the holliday season.

Like I've said when the great pumpkin (holloween) shows his face the bucks are chasin the early bird or does. Two weeks before all the turkeys in the land line up for exacution its pretty much full speed humping,give it a week after all the turkey is flushed in the poopor and magicily the 2 nd rut happens..now this is in the southern zone (steuben cty)) e/w long. line ,,,,,if ya live north a little eariler if ya live in maryland expect to wait till late dec early jan..hmm wonder if the north south lines,day length ,or.. naa its the great pumpkin.. hey i could write a book "The Great Pumpkin Rut"

Now if ya really want some good info get a 20 year old buck magizine and in sept they will tell you how to find BIG bucks and in nov. they will tell you how to find "Winter Bucks"

..NOTE::: If the Black hole and the hemeroidlxy line up it will be a painfull season for sitting...and you might have to do some preparation "H" phases well before season!

[Chautauqua Tony]

Ray,

I don't really agree with your theory. If you are defining the rut as Bucks at full testosterone levels, then yeah the rut is the same time every year. The rut is set on by the doe and to me the word rut is the time they breed and the activities that take place during a time period before. When a doe is ready to breed she doesn't run, which is usually what i see late October, doe running from bucks that are juiced out on testosterone. Not saying early ruts don't happen, but the rut's not the same every year.

And to put the record straight, I'm not saying that the Moon is the only factor to trigger the rut, but i think is a major one.

Maybe you should pick up a book that's been published from the past few years and learn what science and continued white tale studies have revealed.

Not really sure why ever thread you comment on has to be full of sarcastic comments like you're your word is the "end all be all". To me it shows closed minded ignorance. sorry.

[ray koziatek]

naa im justa wannabe comedian ,with 41 years in the woods who pays attention to every detail from broken spyder webs ,nipped tree buds, direction of bent grass on trails,not to mention all the obvious info gathered from tracks,secondary buck trails,to ground scrapes...as i said in another post Odessa and corning 22 miles apart have a difference of 1week to 10 days on rut activity and it varys every year and the only difference i can figure out is the heavy nuts one year and light nuts(acorns) the next..maybe the moon is different 20 miles away...just save yer money and put it on holloween begining ,nov10th its on and nov 30ish the second fun time begins ...give or take a couple days....psst the farmer who's land i hunt in indiana agrees 100% with my great pumpkin theory and turkey timer.course hes only been huntin bout 62 years ,,If you never were told a deer was comming 5 min before it got to you by a squirrel or deer movements by a flock of chickadees,been told of a incomming hawk by the ground critters then ya got a few things to learn in the woods or a book. I personally have no need for a book to tell me about the woods and game i hunt,,but i could use a little help on those coyotes ...... snow

P.S. Maybe when Suny Cobleskill and environmental science studies compleate their impact on deer population by coyotes i can speek morer intellagentable and with confidence of my casual observations...gosh and i only compleated 12 years of school ,course 4 of them were in the 5th grade ,gosh i miss god oll Miss Woderbraski,wonder if she got any bigger?

PSS that little hanky no panky before the does get all ready is what I call pre rut if you think every doe on the planet comes in heat the same day cause of the moon i got a nice little bridge thats going to be forclosed on and can sell it real cheep.

[Gator]

I didn't manage to catch a peek at the big boy after Friday morning, but I did play with an eight-point yesterday afternoon for ~45 minutes using the grunt and estrous bleat. It was nice with the relative calm not to have to hold onto the tree for "deer" life.

Anyway, the buck finally stepped onto the lane, into the crosshairs, then back off again. I guess I felt generous, and he was only a marginal shooter (by my own personal standards). He certainly acted interested, but I don't know enough about deer physiology to tell from sight alone what stage he might have been in. I also saw thirteen mature does that were traveling in two separate groups, but no bucks were associating with them. For what it's worth, I think that Charlie has been right on the money...a "trickle" rut separated by two distinct periods of heavier activity following the full moon.

[Chautauqua Tony]

Well Ray, i guess you proved my point. You know everything. Why is it your not the one that's a field editor for deer and deer hunting Magazine? You obviously know more.

And by the way, the second estrous is not even close yet and it's the end of November!

And no, i don't believe every doe is ready to breed on the same exact day.

And lastly you kinda contradict yourself when you say that Odessa and Corning are 10 days apart in rut activity when they are only 22 miles apart but your buddy in Indiana agrees with the rut time in western NY???

So I'll put the Alsheimer theory here for you to read:

"At some point in autumn, the amount of daylight decreases enough to reset the whitetail's reproductive clock, thus placing the breeding season in November, December and January in the Northern Hemisphere. Once the doe's reproductive cycle is reset by a specific amount of daylight, her estrus cycle is ready to be cued by moonlight, which provides a bright light stimulus to the pineal gland several nights in a row each lunar month. Then, the rapid decrease in lunar brightness during the moon's third quarter triggers hormonal production by the pineal gland. Physiological changes prompted by the pineal gland culminate in ovulation and estrus.

A northern doe's estrogen level peaks around Nov. 1, as does a buck's sperm count. With both sexes poised to breed, it stands to reason a mechanism must be in place if the doe is to enter estrus and be bred under the darker phases of the moon which are the third through the first quarters. That mechanism in the North is the second full moon after the autumnal equinox, which we call the rutting moon."

According to this theory, this years prime breeding window is between nov 22nd and Dec. 6th. The second estrous would be 3-4 weeks from now. So maybe what you think is the prime rut is just hormone raged bucks (which is a great time to hunt anyways) and what you think is the second rut is actually the first. Only around 14% of doe are breed during the second estrous cycle. By this time most bucks are physically drained from the first rut and are in survival mode. It's hard for me to believe that you see great second rut activity every year for 40 years!!

...psst, i really don't care how many bent blades of grass and broken spider webs you look at in the woods, you don't know everything.

Normally i would eat up most words spoken by someone who has been hunting for 3 times longer than me like yourself but in this case your just a typical hard headed know it all who thinks he's an expert and has nothing else to learn. Get over yourself please. And you can take your smart ass comments and shove em'!!

Have a great day!

[ray koziatek]

Tony , gosh Its great to see all the warm members and how they react to others experiance..due to your testoserone level im shure many will not read your post as it will get deleated or locked ..Im not saying ya cant lern nuttin from a book i just dont need one to tellme what i see ,kinda like standing in your boat cheking the weather channel for wind direction...wet yer finger and look at your flag (read the signs)..keep your nose in the book and yer eyes to the ground and you will learn ..good luck..

[Gator]

Boys, boys...

The both of you have valid points, and I'm not sure they're even mutually exclusive. Ray likes to paint it on a little thick, but his bottom line is that an experienced deer hunter who spends lots of time in the woods knows when the rut is occurring. And Tony likes Charlie's theory, which appears to reflect what we're seeing this year. Okay, so you're both right. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

And Ray, that "grasshopper" kung-fu sensei act is just stoking the flames...but you already know that

Let's keep it chill. We're all on the same side here.

[ray koziatek]

Ps. i enjoy yer musky reports and have learned more about muskys from this site than fishing for them, as i have never really targeted them...tho waneta is only 18 miles from my house,but i have a friend who does and he gets many on a green and silver spoon with downriggers . Ill guess ya wont read that in a musky book but it works for him .. with that said ive never read a musky book so maybe its the norm..

[Chautauqua Tony]

Ray,

Don't really mean to come off so harsh but the thread is "deer observation and moon phase". I find it hard to believe that someone with your time in the woods can argue that there isn't a connection.

I'm not saying everything can be learned from a book either. Time in the woods is the best educational tool you can get, which you have. I'm sure you are a more accomplished hunter than I. I'm not saying Alsheimer knows everything either. But no one can tell me they know everything about whitetails there is to know. I believe i can become a better hunter by learning about behaviors, anatomy, and a more detailed look into the rut. More knowledge! I don't have the time to put into whitetails like Alsheimer. Reading books written by people like Charlie can greatly decrease a learning curve when someone really wants to know as much as they can about whitetails. It's also nice to be able to implement some strategies and theories out in the field.

I guess your sarcastic comments can come off a little belittling.

Good luck the rest of your season.

[slimyfish]

I'm sure volumes have been written on this subject here, but with the recent excellent threads regarding deer numbers I thought I'd start a new one.

What have you guys seen as for mid- day movement just before and around the opener of gun season? My experience here in NY and on a couple hunts in the past in IL was very poor morning hunts. Mid-day could be good if weather was conducive. Evenings usually OK. I'm wondering if the reports of low sightings this year could in part be due to the Full moon hitting right at the same time the pressure hit. What have you farmers and "students" of wildlife movement observed this year as well as past years? I am specifically talking about natural movement and not bumped or driven deer.

vinny, my exp. has been mid day a great time for movement specifically 10am to 2pm.

maybe they get hungry or restless but I do see deer moving.

I dont hunt deer much anymore but have a first row seat from my couch watching the "back 40".

had huge 10 point that made his rounds of my property around 10 am each day...

havent seen him for 3 weeks

the rut plays a major factor for sure

as far as moon playing a roll?

of course it does...

this world operates by its own

you cant see everything with your eyes...

[shadster]

The rut is very predictable regardless of what the magazine hucksters tell you. Happens around the same time every year. The amount of daylight is what triggers the whole process. This is the amount of light the BIOLOGISTS speak of. Charlie is a great writer and a great photographer who sells a lot of magazines to those looking for the best times to take their vacation to hunt. I don't think he holds a biology degree. He gives every prediction a lot of wiggle room so he can appear to be right most times. The one constant he always speaks of is the variable which he calls rut suppressor these days. Included in these are cloud cover and weather. How much moon light comes through the shroud of clouds to hit this "trigger"?

It is my opinion that the weather plays a far more important role than the moon for buck movement whether it be the seek phase, the chase phase, or the rut itself. Bucks are ready to go as soon as they are out of velvet and will react to different stimuli as the season progresses toward the peak of the breeding season. There is nothing like a cold snap to get bucks out of their beds and reacting to that stimuli in daylight. The cold fires them up. The deer don't have a calendar, but they do have a body clock that is set for the same time every year in their part of the country. What would explain the difference in breeding dates from Canada to Florida? My bet is on temperature. We all know the effects of warm Octobers, Novembers and Decembers.....

[Gator]

Hi Shadster,

Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case I'd be ignoring the fact that Charlie has a facility down in Avoca where he studies deer and deer behavior. His observations are made with a rigor that would do a scientist proud, and like any good scientist he tries to explain what he observes using various models. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they need to be modified...it's a process of elimination. And no model is perfect, nor does any model incorporate every variable.

I don't think that you'd get any argument that weather plays an important role...but it's not predictable (or at least the weathermen here in Rochester seem to have a tough time out beyond 4-hours or so ). The moon is predictable, though, which gives the sports who're trying to set up some vacation time a target window with better odds of seeing rutting activity. And it's a game of odds, as not every buck and/or doe is going to trigger at the same time.

Charlie is a writer and photographer, but long before he became well known I knew him as "that crazy guy who studies deer". There's probably an element to what he writes that's designed to sell magazines...guy's got to make a living, after all. But it certainly doesn't help his reputation to put garbage out there or to pull dates out of a hat. I'm sure he'd admit that he doesn't have all the answers, but I do believe that his answers are better than most of the phenomenological or strictly observational n=1 opinions that most guys have (no offense to folks with years of experience, but unless you document you observations, it's still just opinion not science).

And that's strictly my "opinion". For the record, I just head out whenever I have time and hope to stupid into a horny buck. Hey, that works too!

[ray koziatek]

Went to one of my chemung cty spots this weekend ,many fresh ground scrapes and rubbed trees,, could be the new guys mooving in for some rubs but the big boy has ripped more 4in trees like the ones in beg. of nov should be the same deer ..saw 3 spikes playing with their head gear and a nice 17 in inside spread with the does ...(4) but as with many stalking adventures he saw me first and wouldnt step out for a good shot... Odessa scrapes still idle and the bucks are refulling pretty good (eating) from the tracks near the food source and still traveling alone right to a safty zone off my lease at least he is still their ....the last happy couple i saw up their was nov 20 th ..a shooter 8 with a big doe ..Im still gonna enjoy the ride in my tree a few more times before getting serious with the 8 pt..This is my first year in this new land (lease) so a little snow will tell me the dec patterns from the oct scouting ....Shade when it comes to mating the temps do shut down overall movement but if a buck is locked down (with a doe) trust me he ant gonna say "not now honey its too warm out" ,,,,no more than a spawning fish is gonna peek his head in the salmon river and say ohh thats hot and wait till early nov. for prefered water temps...had a 50 deg morning in indiana this year and the boys were making their rounds but they gave up at 9 am (cept the lucky ones)..But at 245 in the afternoon the wait was over and they started following their "small brain"

[Legacy]

I have read a few of Charlies books and followed his study closely over the years. Although im not entirely convinced of his theory, I am intrigued by his findings. One thing that i have learned from him is record keeping. I use a weekly planner to keep a daily journal throughout the hunting season and try to include as much relevant info as possible.

for example... "cut" stand- weds Nov 11 high 41 degrees- low 33 degrees -west wind 5-8 mph- clear skies- frosty- primary scrape on apple tree- worked heavily- new rub on tree to the west- 1 doe & 1 button buck from west @730- 1.5yo 8pt @ 8 on field edge- etc

Compiling this info over numerous years (along with trail cam info) has helped me develop patterns and has helped with picking the right location to hunt at a certain time with the evidence of why. Alot like fishing, recreating that magical day can be as simple as matching time of year and ideal conditions.