Hook on Fly question!

[ITO Flies]

Would you rather pay an extra $.50 per fly to buy them with Mustad hooks or keep the price cheaper for VMC or Eagle Claw hooks? I am just trying to figure out if I should upgreade my hooks to Mustad or not. Thanks for your input! Ryan

[spoonfed-1]

Personally I would rather pay the half a buck and get a better hook.

It's been a few years since I ran Eagle Claw or VMC but if they are the same as they were back then VMC were better between the two.

Really disliked the inward bend at the business end of the Eagle Claws and had more than one bend or break with only one of the three hooks in the fish.

Was also difficult to sharpen.

Again this was a few years ago so maybe they have changed since then.

Glen

[Broadhorizons]

I tie my own fly leaders but if I had to buy pre-tied leaders in a pinch, I would definitely spend the extra money on better hooks. I prefer Gamakatsu Stinger 3x trebles.

[pmjasper]

VMC makes some sharp trebles, I would forget the Eagle Claws. Gamakatsu have always been know as producing sharp hooks.

Now as far as Mustad is concerned....most guys like the Signature Series but the originals are not as sharp out of the package.

I'd say stick with VMC's or Gami's

[rustyrat]

I prefer owner but they cost even more.

RR

[spoonfed-1]

I prefer owner but they cost even more.

RR

Owner is what I've been running the last 3 or 4 seasons.

Glen

[ITO Flies]

thanks for the input guys. I have 200 mustad coming 100 is regular and 100 is 2x strong. If they check out good I will be going with them until I find a better deal on better hooks.

[flytying]

If you buy Owner Hook style ST-41 2X treble hook direct by the 1000, you get a significant price break. They actually would cost less than buying VMC from Shorty's Hook Sales.

[GAMBLER]

Another Owner fan here. All my Atommiks are tied with them and I use a smaller size on my tip ups icefishing for pike. Super strong and really sharp.

[A-TOM-MIK]

Incorrect Info from flytying

Our last direct purchase from Owner of 10,000 2X ST-41BN #2 Stinger Trebles was $2,795.00 -FET or about 28 cents a hook.

Our last direct purchase from VMC of a somewhat "dealer implied" comparable hook of 1000 2X 9650TR #1 VMC Trebles was about 90+ bucks -FET or about 9 cents a hook.

Same hook purchased through Shorty's was only a few pennies more as well as a few various but comparable styles

You will not find Owner "Stinger" trebles cheaper than any VMC anywhere on today's market (to the best of my knowledge), Owners average 3 to 4 times the price of any comparable VMC. I am not implying a VMC is a bad hook as all manufacturers can make a great product in various styles.

10,000 3X Owner ST-56 BN #2 -FET $3325.00 33.25 cents ea.

1,000 2X VMC 8650BN #1 -FET $86.50 8.65 cents ea.

10,000 2X EC L375 #1/0 -FET $875.00 8.75 cents ea.

Dependent upon purchasing power in qty or purchasing Original Equipment Manufacturing, by the time these hooks are packed to code in some instances, shipped, excise taxed and manufactured with the price can increase significantly to the consumer.

Just an FYI

Tom

[ITO Flies]

THANK YOU TOM!!! You have always given me good informaiton and I really THANK you for that! Ryan

[flytying]

I agree with you and stand corrected that VMC are less expensive when running the numbers. I believe that we are comparing apples with oranges. Owner Hooks are more than a cut above VMC hooks in quality, strength, and sharpness. When you are only paying 28 cents before FET (excise tax) for a hook used in a suggested listed trolling fly rig at $5.95 to $6.95, then 28 cents is insignificant for the quality you are obtaining. If you breakdown the cost of all the components used as you have extrapolated from your previous response, you will see that spending the extra 20 cents will not break the bank in a trolling fly rig with the following breakdown:

(and yes the price to the consumer is FAIRLY respresented but not by the Owner treble hook, but predicated by what is charged from the mfg and retailer so they can be profitable)

Plastic Bulk Lures From Silver Horde For Tying Banded Mylar: $25.50 per 1,000

6mm Plastic Beads From Jerome Plastics: $16.50 per 5,000

Banded Mylar Material From Purple Taco: $.75 to $1.75 per yard depending on material

Seaguar Flourocarbon 50# test line: $13.95 per 25 yards

Owner ST41 2X #2Treble Hook: $.28 each

Gamakatsu 02314-25 Red 4/0 Stinger Hook: $.25 each

Total Mfg Cost Before Excise Tax For One Rig:

Lure Head: .0225

2 Plastic Beads .0033

Banded Material .2776 (average cost at $1.25 per yard using 8 inches of material)

Flourocarbon 1.39 (using 30 inches of material)

Owner ST41 Hook .28

Gamakatsu Hook .25

Total Cost Exluding Excise Tax: $2.1734

Cost After Excise Tax ( $2.1734 x 1.10): $2.3907 (before packaging)

Add Labor Costs, UPC Labeling, Blister Cards and Clamshells and you have a significant amount of money invested to make a quality product such as Atommik, Big Weenie, or Howie Flies.

(Not counting your initial investment in vises, tying thread, head cement, blister packaging machine, UPC Council Membership, Marketing Tools Such as Internet Presence/Catalogs/Sales Tools, Special Inkjet Printer To Print UPC Labels, Product Liability Insurance, a prerequisite to sell to the big box stores)

[A-TOM-MIK]

Wrong again, lacking info and bad or misleading calculations

Custom tempered and manufactured rattle cost per unit 18 cents

G wall HE Surgical tubing cost per unit 3 cents

3 sets of 1099's in place from "piece work" which include 4 jobs:

-Fly manufacture $50.40/120 flies or 42 cents per unit

-Harness manufacture $68/gross or 47 cents per unit

-Fly sheath manufacture cost and reversal of fly about 11 cents per unit

-All Fly components set in packaging 29 cents per unit

Injection molded heads from Starprototype about .01

Beads from Engineering labs about 1 cents per unit (x2)

PVC and laminate film mostly from xxx, converted mostly by xxx, and needled by xxx, & much shipping, total avg. price about 16 cents a fly when said and done

(Flagship has not done work for me in about 3 years, just an FYI)

(Purple Taco is a friend but less than 10% of our product line come from Curt's films)

Silicone sheets on average, on top of non silicone enhanced flies about 10 cents per unit

Gamma 100% 50# Fluoro $2675/9140 meters (41" per harness) or 31 cents a fly

Owner SSW Cutting Point #4/0 27 cents per unit

Owner 2X ST-41BN #2 Stinger Treble 28 cents per unit

Blister cards glued 2 cents

Blisters 4 cents

Another wrong statement projected concerning FET:

FET is subject to each "title passing" if further manufacture is represented but not to include initial tax, which is incurred on my end at full manufacture & averaged on wholesale selling price of approx. 4.89 or about 49 cents/unit (2010) - Avg. selling price includes dealer direct wholesale, dealer direct retail and distribution

*not on price as "noted" of stated wholesale cost to A-TOM-MIK

Cost 2.71

FET .49

3.20 cost to A-TOM-MIK +/- .05

Then you can take out mentioned initial extras, like not 1 but 3 blister machines purchased so far, 4 compressors, many new and rebuilt templates, several thermal bar code label printers, labels, blister card artwork design charges and added charges from changes through the years, insurances and maintenance etc. etc. etc.

Some of the initial investment to date for needed expenditures is nearing 50 grand, not even including a few thousand pounds of bulk films purchased that range in price from $5 to $15 lb., much that will never even see use in the lifetime of my business due to qty, or the hundreds of finished pounds of loose films ready for manufacture

Your behind the times flytying, and out-dated with 95% of all info you attempt to continually pluck and spread from my small, home based business . LMAO !!

Tom

[flytying]

I really am not impressed by how much you have spent or how much machinery you have. I only gave a picture to people that supported trolling fly manufacturers about the amount of time and investment that is put into making trolling flies and using quality materials from my point of view not yours.

I noticed no other fly manufacture has come back with such a defensive response or for that matter took it so personally. If you really read my response to ITO Flies, you may have overlooked my support for manufacturers such as you, Big Weenie, and Howie. And honestly, my responses were not directed at you, but information from my end to help out someone else. But, by you chiming in, you took offense which shows your intimidation for no reason as always.

You can make me and others look bad all you want, but I know how easy it is for you to lose your temper. I have seen it this summer with many other issues on here as well as from other tackle shops.

You continually deface me on your facebook page, you have threatened all your accounts thru emails to pull your products if they bought product from me as well as threatening emails personally to me thru the years. Your bullying of people thru the years is well documented and someone needs to standup to your nonsense.

You may have a great business and products which I have always supported and have been impressed with, but when it comes to being a caring and a really nice human being, you are lost in that department.

[ITO Flies]

Man and I just had a question about hooks!!!!