Ray's breach plug cleaning tip fills last tag

[chowder]

I was getting ready to post a question this morning about some frustrating misfires I've been having w/ Triple 7 in my inline muzzys when Ray called to see about coming over for a short hunt. Anyway when he got here I was kind of busy but described my series of misfortunes and he promptly got out a spool of thin wire and described how how, by putting a kink in it, he runs it thru the breach plug hole to get it cleaned out really well. I must admit I was a bit skeptical that it would be an improvement on the little needle I use but I figured what the heck and cleaned the breach plug as Ray advised. Long and short of it I managed to get done w/ my days work at 3:30, threw on my winter whites, grabbed my CVA Accura and headed out. Making sure I stayed as far away as possible from where Ray told me he thought the deer would be based on his morning hunt I soon saw deer movement in a distant swamp. Bellycrawling in as close as I could I saw what looked like cover and slid into a frozen ditch. Except the ditch was not exactly completely frozen... Anyway I'm lying there trying to line up a 120 yd shot w/ the freezing ditch water rising into places where freezing ditch water should not be and I'm thinking I hope Ray is right about this 'fire hole' cleaning thing. Well people, Ray's cleaning routine worked, the gun went off perfectly, the big doe took 2 steps and went down in a heap. Quite a Season finale. Thanks Ray!!

[seasquirrel]

Andy, your getting Ray dangerously close to my turf. I wonderd why the deer were so spooky!

[ray koziatek]

andy that swamp was frozen solid ................till i peeeeeeed in it earlier, ya know ya send me into the woods where ya saw the big bear and ya made me wear those bear bells i never saw one bear track and every deer ran to the swamp I think I got tricked.

many people relate " missfires" to wet powder. Real black powder Ignites well and fast,

Triple 7,and pyrodex are a little more fussy to the point pyrodex actually has a Ignition "helper" on one end that must face the primer.,And both have a hole in the middle that ant there for easy handling of the powder ,but its Main pourpose is to carry the primer flash for even ignition timing , or everyone in the woods will think their surronded by squirrel hunters with pop guns..those little "nipple pricks" are not large enuf dia for proper Ignition....................And if any of you guys think you can clean that muzzy 1 time before long term storage ya better think again repeate cleaning process 3 times over a perioud of a week and see if im missleading ya there then and only then swab "bore butter" for long term storage...

[muskybob]

Andy, your getting Ray dangerously close to my turf. I wonderd why the deer were so spooky!

That's only half of it, while I didn't hunt, I made the trip to Chowder's yesterday too. Dang Chowder hid his Islander so I couldn't swipe his tower. Also, Thanks Ray

[seasquirrel]

Yikes, Musky and Ray within 10 miles of my house? Hide the women and children

[muskybob]

Too late What's in YER wallet?"

[chowder]

andy that swamp was frozen solid ................till i peeeeeeed in it earlier.

Well, that explains a lot! I hung my whites up in the mudroom after my hunt last night so they wouldn't freeze solid and this morning my wife say's to me " Something smells very bad in the mudroom, I think one of the barn tomcats got in and sprayed on your hunting costume".

P.S. Musky, I locked up that arch w/ 2 log chains before I left you 2 guys there alone when I went to town & I left my sister in law w/ my 870 12 gauge and a box of shells and told her under no circumstances was she to answer the door!

[shadster]

Yep, powder burns cooler and faster while the synthetic stuff needs heat all the heat from the cap or primer. 200 degree difference. That fire hole is the first thing to check.

Congrats on the doe.

[scobar]

drill out the breech plug hole larger. Never miss fire again

[chowder]

drill out the breech plug hole larger. Never miss fire again

Tell us more.

[Chromeslayer]

chowder

you using loose 777 or pellets? and what primers? more than likely the breach plug was gummed up but could be a primer issue as well... a welding tip cleaner is a great tool to clean that flash hole

[chowder]

chowder

you using loose 777 or pellets? and what primers? more than likely the breach plug was gummed up but could be a primer issue as well... a welding tip cleaner is a great tool to clean that flash hole

At this point in my life I'm using just the pellets and only my inline 209 type guns. First 'misfire' was my first afternoon out during blk pwdr Thurs 12/16 -my Accura would not go off, though the primer lit ok . I put in 3 fresh primers in a row attempting to take a doe @ 100+yds. I eventually pulled the plug in my stand, pushed out the old load & reloaded, this 'fresh load would not fire either. Next afternoon I took out my Traditions Pursuit which I had shot at the range that morning and that gun only lit 1/2 the charge. I put powder from a fresh box and used brand new Winchester 209 Triple Seven special primers in both guns the next day and still had mixed results at the range. So after talking to Ray I cleaned em his way & my Accura fired nicely for me on the last day I could go (story above). In addition my buddy, who was having issues w/ his CVA Optima, borrowed my Traditions Pursuit and was able to take his first deer of the season yesterday , the last day, only a few feet from where I got mine the day before. Kind of looks like the flash hole was the culprit but other possibilities are certainly possible.

[Chromeslayer]

look into getting that welding tip cleaner.. works great for cleaning the flash holes on breech plugs... the trip 7 primers shouldnt be causing any issues with pellets.... with some of the loose powders (Blackhorn 209) requires a hotter primer.. but if problems still continue id try diff (hotter) primers

[Steelman]

Yes sir drill out the hole just a wee bit larger for better ignition. I still wonder why they make that hole needle thin.

[ray koziatek]

The wee hole might be engeneered that size for a reason. I would NOT recomend enlarging the hole .. best case you might get enuf backflash from the main charge to expand your primer for hard removal,,worst case you get enuf flashback to damage your wepon or your HEAD "BOOM" ..the "tip cleaners" for welding/brazing tips are very good also as mentioned but they are somewhat of a file and prolonged use "might" enlarge the hole a tad. Ive still got about 50 ft of 24 ga wire left from the 2.99 spool i bought 6 years ago (gives you a reason to hangout at Jo Anns fabric ).

In 6 years ive had 2 missfires not from primers but from wet barrel. I brought the gun in from the cold cleaned good and reloaded BEFORE letting the barrell get to room temp, just enuf condensation reformed in the barrell and when i pushed the bullet down it acted like a squeege and the very thin layer of moister was all pushed into the powder which is like a sponge ......both times the wet (moistened) powder burned but i could see the cool light show of my pellets comming out the end of the barrel (they sorta spiral) Its a neat thing to see ,UNLESS THEIR IS A TROPHY BUCK LINED UP IN YOUR SIGHTS

Ever sence the gun stays in the truck loaded till im done hunting for the season....

ONCE AGAIN NEVER ALTER YOUR WEPON OR THE DEAD ANIMAL MAY BE THE ONE BEHIND THE STOCK, and i dont want the woods all pooped up by some rescue squad pickin up your exploaded "pumpkin" (head)

[chowder]

I'm with Ray on this drilling out the flash hole idea- it just sounds like bad medicine to me. Have any of you guys who have done this consulted a credible gunsmith who is very experienced with black powder arms? It seems to me that the exact dimension of that hole was arrived at by an engineer using specific criteria. As a 'jack of all trades' I'm all for making stuff work but personally I draw the line on my own creativity when it comes to either 'alternative' electrical configurations or modifying firearms.I'm not trying to throw water on this discussion but I'd like to see the exact scientific basis behind the idea of enlarging the flash hole from a professional gunsmithing authority. -Andy

[Chromeslayer]

The accura stock flash hole is .019 people have been opening them up to no more than .035 to get better ignition using the blackhorn 209 powder. Prolly not something you should do on your own but a gunsmith should be able to do without any problem

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[blacksquirrel2]

Pop a couple of primers before you load up and your problems are solved.

[Steelman]

It was a gunsmith who opened up my breechhole. It is a very small increase. Never had a problem since with it. Also trying to figure out this flashback you talk about and I come up with nothing at all. The cap is completely sealed except that small little hole where the flash exits the cap so exacally how does it flash backwards through a thick chunk of steel holding it in place and manage to kill the guy shooting the gun? Is the bullet somehow going to shoot backwards with all the powder behind it pushing it out the muzzle? The size of the breech hole is so small so it can direct all its ignition capabilities into one spot or right down the center of the hole in the pellets. A larger hole spreads that ignition over a wider area and does not direct all its power into one spot resulting in a slower ignition of the powder. So you basically get a hotter faster ignition with a small hole but downside is a small hole plugs easier than a larger one and unless kept clean you could get a misfire. So some of us chose a compromise of a little larger hole to help with the misfires but not to large to slow down the ignition of the powder to worry about. Remember the old days when you pulled the trigger and held the gun and waited for the bang? Newer guns you you get the bang on the trigger pull.

[ray koziatek]

Think it was Einstine who said"" for every action their is a oppisite reaction,""sumpting like that. Maybe i should of said ""back pressure". As with every thing from a car engine that can be punched and bored for more power,or a two cyc engine ported for better air flow, you can improve performance, but ill bet youll find it hard for a nascar team to say yup this oll motor has 70,000 miles on it and we ant even changed the plugs yet.

Lets bump up the sizes were playing with in plummers talk...

One 1/2" line will properly supply 6 -3/8ths lines.

Or a 6in pipe will carry approx 24 sq in of air but go just 2 inches bigger to a 8in pipe now your up to 54 sq inches yup double the flo (or backflow) by a 1/3rd increase.in diamenter.

so drillin out your breech hole by almost double the size shure looks tiny holdin it up to the light but youve opened up the only passage towards you and the internal components of your gun by about 10 times without pullin out the calculator.

Everything is designed with a safty factor for a reason,my friend has one of those watrproof designed muzzys that the primer is placed in some little red plastic type holder that should be only used once (red holder) due to expansion im shure if you look at it ,it dont look to bad for reuse but some engineer had a reason (test till it compleatly failed) for the one time use. My TC primer does not seat compleatly to the flange in the breech plug ,but 1/2 of it is stickin out for ease of removal by the extracter. so every gun design has its own little "quirk" that might limit the breechplug hole size for safety and long term use. A 300 hp engine will last beyond 100,000 miles a 300 hp engine tricked out to 700hp has to be rebuilt every 500 miles if it makes it that far..

When your talkin 1000s of lbs of pressure 3inches from your pumpkin you better have a good "gunsmith" properly schooled in the design of that wepon .

as for me im going on 7 years with no pluged breech hole misfires so with another 30 sec of cleaning time ill keep the only hole between me and the powder just the way it is..I know a few Experts in the field so ill bring it up next time i talk to them ..

[Steelman]

Comparing a motor to a breech plug has no relevance. A motor with thousands of moving parts to wear out verses a little hole. Ray I understand what I think your trying to say but if they manufactured a gun that the tolerance of the hole is so critical that if it enlarges by the least little bit it will blow your head off do you really think they would be in business without lawsuits and death on there hands? Lets see I think Im going to design a gun that is on the fringe of blowing everyones head off after a few years of firing it as the heat and flames slowly over time keep burning that hole larger little by little. I think not.

[ray koziatek]

reread my post i said" every gun design has its own little quirk that might limit breachplug hole for SAFTY and LONG term use". That is why I am against putting out a post that might be ok or at least doable for your gun whereas another could have a very undesired result (death ,blinding or even minor wounds ).If you are a wepons EXPERT and are willing to advise potentially 1000's of people yup its ok to have someone modify your gun like i did then so be it . but ive dabbled with explosives a few times,have been trained in metal fatigue failure ,and the importance of NOT exceding the recomended load or force. Everything from a kayak to the pitch link bearing play on a helecopter roter head or swashplate has a built in safty tolarence or SAFE operation range for a reason ,normal wear during normal use between inspections for the normal load applied if you exceed that recomended spec rather its a little hole 3 in from yer eye or a bearing capable of handling 1000's of lbs of force on top of a aircraft your playing with the "SAFE TOLLARENCE" limits,and having lost my eyesight in both eyes for over 10 days years ago from a gunpowder backflash I tend to err on the Safty side. I dont shoot the muzzy much and have put around 1000 rounds through it in 7 years and the 24 guage wire is just as tight today as it was 7 years ago,and if it gets sloppy or corroded Ill replace it for the $26.00 rather than take a chance of depending on a seeing eye dog..and have to take sound shots when hunting. If my post of SAFTY FIRST saves one eye then all this peckin i do is worth it and if someone is too lazy or missinformed to properly ,clean a wepon for proper operation then when the "BIG BUCK" walks away lafin.they have no one to blame but themselfs.

Now i ant no history major either but it seems to me muzzleloaders have been around a few years and ill bet with every major failure or problem some one along the way made improvements,or died. Ill stick with the improvement guys....

Ok basic quick question do you know why the 209 primer causes a certian amount of inaccuracy with muzzleloaders and if so wouldnt a bigger hole add to this problem??

Just a thought.......for the day.

[skipper19]

Ray is straight on in his discussion on the importance of leaving tolerances of firearms to the engineers who designed them to be safe. That is why they ARE in business and still manufacture them to be that way...they also cannot control what happens to them after the firearm leaves the factory and the reason that most firearm manufacturers will have a notice placed in many sections of the manual that comes with it that states "any modification or abnormal abuse to this firearm will void the warranty and may render the firearm unsafe to use causing injury or death". There are people that walk among us who will do the opposite just because they can. Even some so called gunsmiths can be "told" to do this modification unsafe or not and put their neck on the line and over step the modification without better judgment.

Now as for the primer, and the flash hole...the size of the flash hole is designed to work with a particular type of primer and all of these primers DO NOT have the same pressure release on ignition. For instance the 209 shotshell primers are very different in pressure that varies between manufacturer and as a standard size or a magnum size. These pressures are magnified in the flash hole ,,determined by the diameter of the hole itself and wether you use pellets with the enhanced ignition hole in the center or if you use LOOSE powder. Loose powder will let some pressure dissipate through it and that will vary with the compactness of the charge and size of the charge as well.

Pellet pyrodex will bring the pressure through the center more and actually begin to move the projectile forward down the barrel enough to unseat it from the main charge before the main charge has a chance to entirely ignite, there fore creating greater pressure and reducing accuracy from shot to shot.

It is important to be consistent with the components once you find the sweet load for a particular gun. primers are an essential part of the equation, not just an ignition source. the hotter the primer the more pressure it adds to the final ignition, there fore back pressure can raise enough to possibly escape rearward and flash back toward the shooter in an altered primer holder and breach plug.

All this holds true even more for smokeless versions of muzzy guns. Hand loading center fire ammo is the same. Working up a load very carefully and keeping components consistent is super important. when approaching a maximum pressure load and using a different primer you run the risk of exceeding the pressure limits that are considered safe for firearms in good condition. The first sign of overloading pressures is the primer unseats or gets cratered around the firing pin strike..that is caused by the same back pressure we are talking about for a muzzy gun. Opening that flash hole only invites more of back pressure to work against the primer and try to unmount it from its holder. Some muzzy guns are more susceptible to that by their design, such as my TC black diamond.

One thing I never do is after firing or loading the muzzy, is to bring it inside the house where it is warm and start condensation working on the residue or the live charge in it for the seasons hunt. I don't even turn the heat way up in the truck and I leave it laying on the floor in the back where it will stay colder. If the weather changes warmer I fire it off and reload it at the end of the day. Most misfire problems are mysteriously related to the act of moving the firearm in and out of cold and warm climates often after they have been fired and uncleaned or reloaded and carried in and out of warm and cold. Caking happens and closes small tolerances such as a flash hole.

Cleaning the muzzy is like Ray said,, done more than once during storage, cause you can't get it clean enough to stop the reaction of moisture and sulfur residue. Yeah and bore butter is the last defense and should be applied at the last cleaning. OH and don't forget a good anti seize lube for the threaded parts.

Mark