Lake Ontario Bait situation?

[jimski2]

Info I picked up at the State of the Lake indicated we may be using emerald shiners caught locally and transporting them in our vehicles in nearby corridors along the lake.

The earliest date we could possibly expect this to happen is late June???

There were a lot of retirements at top offices in the DEC and the new guys are trying to catch up with the loose ends they inherited. At least we have some fresh thinkers working there now. The bad news is the promotions were not replaced and a manpower shortage will really affect hatchery operations.

The good news is they are a lot of wild hatched Chinooks in the lake.

[Yankee Troller]

The good news is they are a lot of wild hatched Chinooks in the lake.

Just sayin', but in a time of financial hurt the last thing the govt. needs to know is there is natural reproduction in the lake. We have to watch this VERY closely, and make sure they don't use this as a crutch to cut back on stocking.

[spoonfed-1]

After talking to the DEC guy checking fish at the proams I have come to the conclusion the natural reproduction "ESTIMATES" are not at all accurate and are very possibly

way over estimated.

There are alot of Kings being put into that lake that are NOT fin clipped and chip implanted and from what I am told this is the criteria used to make the estimations.

Glen

[blrunner]

The bad news is the promotions were not replaced and a manpower shortage will really affect hatchery operations.

The DEC said that the Salmon River Hatchery in Altmar was only one person down and they have been for awhile so that won't affect their operation.

[Tim Bromund]

After talking to the DEC guy checking fish at the proams I have come to the conclusion the natural reproduction "ESTIMATES" are not at all accurate and are very possibly

way over estimated.

There are alot of Kings being put into that lake that are NOT fin clipped and chip implanted and from what I am told this is the criteria used to make the estimations.

Glen

Glen from what I saw at the SOTL meeting last night, they have a better than 99.5% marking and tagging rate with the trailer, so if there are a lot of non clipped kings going into the lake, those would be the wild ones. For all intents and purposes, every king stocked in the lake from both NYS and Ontario ARE clipped and tagged.

Tim

[Yankee Troller]

After talking to the DEC guy checking fish at the proams I have come to the conclusion the natural reproduction "ESTIMATES" are not at all accurate and are very possibly

way over estimated.

There are alot of Kings being put into that lake that are NOT fin clipped and chip implanted and from what I am told this is the criteria used to make the estimations.

Glen

Glen from what I saw at the SOTL meeting last night, they have a better than 99.5% marking and tagging rate with the trailer, so if there are a lot of non clipped kings going into the lake, those would be the wild ones. For all intents and purposes, every king stocked in the lake from both NYS and Ontario ARE clipped and tagged.

Tim

I thought they had trouble getting the trailer over to Canada? I remember hearing about a bunch that Canada put in that didn't get clipped and tagged.

[Tim Bromund]

No, they had to get the Canadian fish that were going in their pen projects marked earlier in the spring than they could get the trailer up there, so those fish had to be clipped and marked by hand. A lot of tedious manual work like they had to do before the trailer, but those fish all got marked as well.

Tim

[spoonfed-1]

The nuimber of tagged fish I was given early last summner was more like 65 maybe 70%

If this 99 percent is a valid number when did this increase take place?

Are you gageing your estimates based on a clipping numbers that was just acheived last fall?

They have been estimating natural reproduction much longer than the trailer has been in operation.

Glen

[Tim Bromund]

Glen,

I'm not estimating anything, those numbers came directly from the presentation at the DEC State of the Lake Meeting last night from the actual hatchery/fisheries staff. Quite honestly, I'd trust their numbers more than a creel census technician who wasn't there when the marking trailer was actually doing the marking. I'm sorry, but I think you got bad info from the tech you talked to.

Previous to last springs stocking, the only fish that received coded wire tags in 2008 and 2009 were those planted in the Salmon River in NY and the Credit River in Ontario as those were the two agencies brood stock locations, but EVERY king stocked by both NYS and Ontario in 2008, 2009 and 2010 were adipose clipped. Starting in 2010 all of the various lots of stocked fish were ALSO coded wire tagged with each group of fish receiving a tag with a different lot number to identify where and how they were stocked. For example, Olcott Pen Reared Kings got coded wire tags implanted in their snout with one set of numbers, Olcott Direct Stocked Kings got a tag with a different number, etc. This is part of a 5 year study to analyze and determine the effectiveness of the various stocking strategies at each stocking site so they can fine tune their approach to get the best return for the effort.

According to the folks from the DEC presenting last night, each group of fish that went through the trailer were checked both by the trailer imaging software and metal detectors to confirm clips and tags and those that were rejected were clipped/tagged manually and then there was also a manual QC check on top of that. With all of those controls in place, if any hatchery kings made it through the system unclipped and/or untagged, it wasn't more than a handful.

I think it really is a safe bet that if you catch a 1, 2 OR 3 YO king on the lake this year, that has it's adipose fin intact, that is a wild fish.

Yes they have been estimating wild fish numbers for longer than the trailer has been in operation, but in the past those were absolute WAG's on their part. They knew approximately how many wild fry the SR was producing a year from their annual test nettings, but had no real idea to what extent those fish contributed to the fisher or if they just became fish food. Now they are working with real and valid data.

Tim

[Tim Bromund]

Glen,

Here is the 2009 Lake Ontario Annual Report, the 2010 Annual Report hasn't been issued yet.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lorpt09.pdf

Check out the last paragraph on Page 4 of Section 9 where they talk about the efficiency of the marking trailer.

Tim

[spoonfed-1]

Thanks for the info Tim.

That sure does change things.

Glen

[spoonfed-1]

Don't see where it says the net pen fish were clipped Tim.

You find that information anywhere?

All I could find is that the Hatchery stocked fish were done.

Thanks

Glen

[Tim Bromund]

Glen,

Clipped or tagged?

All Kings were clipped on both sides of the lake in 2008, 2009 and 2010, 2008 and 2009 only Salmon River and Credit River Kings got the coded Wire Tags. All kings got tags starting 2010, which was after this report.

Tim

[Tim Bromund]

Glen look at the Chinook Marking Study text which starts on Page 1 of Section 9 (before the graphs) and continues on Page 4 after the graphs.

Chinook Marking Study

In 2008, the New York Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) purchased an automated fish marking trailer (Autofish) from Northwest Marine Technology Inc.. Funding for the purchase came from the natural resources damage settlement with the Occidental Chemical Corporation. This is the first Autofish system in the Great Lakes Basin, and is capable of adipose clipping and/or applying coded wire tags to salmon and trout at a rate of approximately 6,000 fish per hour. DEC received the system in mid-March 2008, and marked all 1.27 million of the 2008 year class of Chinook salmon stocked by both New York and Ontario. The fish were reared and marked at New York’s Salmon River Hatchery and Ontario’s Ringwood Fish Culture Station.

Stockings for future broodstock for both agencies (NY-Salmon River, Ontario-Credit River) received both adipose clips and coded wire tags. Fish destined for other stocking sites in NY and Ontario were marked with an adipose clip only. All stocked Chinook salmon (2.3 million) were marked similarly in 2009. This study will allow us to evaluate various aspects of the contributions of naturally reproduced and hatchery reared Chinook salmon to the fishery, improving the fisheries management decision process.

Tim

[ray koziatek]

someones got their nose to the grindstone......Thanks Tim !!

[reeltime]

I seem to remember last spring prior to the release of our pen fish they

scooped several net fulls of the young salmon to weigh them and found that

a good number of them had no fin clips.

while natural reproduction is no doubt happening the DEC would be foolish to

adjust put & take numbers as there are far too many variables to the natural

production on a year to year basis. If we have a couple bad years of natural

production back to back the whole fishing economy will suffer greatly, imho.

While they have made leaps and bounds with trying to get a handle on their

program and are getting better I think they are still a long ways from being

99% accurate.

lets face it guys we are at their mercy, they can tell us numbers and we have

no choice but to try and believe it. when they deliver fish to our ports

and tell us we are getting 30,000 browns, we watch them go zipping out

the end of the pipe and we believe there are 30,000. would any of us

really know if there were only 18-20,000? no different than them

dumping 50,000 kings in the pens, we look in there and say "thats a lot

of little salmon" but is it 50k or 30-35k?

We as the ones that fund these programs need to get a better handle on

the numbers and actions of what is going on. this lake and the put & take

fish are providing a good number of people their living income. To just

blindly accept their information is not really the path we should be

following, this is like the old saying of letting the fox watch the henhouse.

[spoonfed-1]

I seem to remember last spring prior to the release of our pen fish they

scooped several net fulls of the young salmon to weigh them and found that

a good number of them had no fin clips

This is what I was told was the case all along the lake in 2009.

Makeing their natural reproduction estimates very unreliable at that point.

Like you stated Lee, who knows for sure.

Glen

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Very true. The Lake is stilll very under populated with Chinooks. The total bio mass is still a mystery. Only a couple of years ago they said the smelt population was in danger of eradication. Now, they are back. Still enough alewives to canabiliize the next year class heavily. The Lake would be even healthier with more Kings even if slightly smaller.

What they cannot evaluate is the current efficiency of Chinook angler on both the North and south shores, and predation by all the new increased populations of warm water species--which Chinook are directly responsible for helping to come back.

It was refreshing and comforting to meet the new Ontario province Lake Ontario manager, he loves Chinook and "Gets it". Now if we can just keep him and some of his U.S. counterparts from being bullied by either governments agendas, we will be ok.

Many of us are watching closely that this study doesn't lead to stocking cuts of Salmon and trout, especially Chinook.

[blrunner]

I seem to remember last spring prior to the release of our pen fish they

scooped several net fulls of the young salmon to weigh them and found that

a good number of them had no fin clips

This is what I was told was the case all along the lake in 2009.

Makeing their natural reproduction estimates very unreliable at that point.

Like you stated Lee, who knows for sure.

Glen

I'm speaking for the pen project in Olcott and I do all the weight checks. We have received clipped kings since 2008. I have looked for fish not clipped and haven’t found any since we’ve been getting clipped fish. I also have no reason to not believe the number of fish that the Salmon River Hatchery delivers to us. They are the people that do the work and are a great group to work with.

Hank Condes

Olcott Pen Coordinator

[jimski2]

Is it possible the bait forage numbers are so high that the salmon do not need to atack your lures? The average weights are OK but not outstanding.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Absolutely Jimski. The challenge is greater fishing for Chinooks in Lake Ontario than the other Great Lakes. In many locations around the lake the density of alewives is so great that you have to clean off your hooks. A recent phenomenon is being experienced at times in recent years where the Chinooks feed on the deeper smelt, even though it is colder down there and large numbers of alewives are present in their so called "preferred" temps. They have choices, and their movements are not always dictated by bait presence.