Do we need observers?

[Gill-T]

Looking at all the teams in the AM division that need observers this late in the game has me thinking, DO WE REALLY NEED THEM?.....or at least BOTH DAYS? This is the single most exhaustive thing I do. I start 6 months in advance. It has taken up so much of my time and added so much stress that I honestly am contemplating not fishing these events next year or going to the open division ( and compete against 4 teams?). There has to be a better way.

[Paul Czarnecki]

That is always an issue Gill.....for Pros and Ams. That is, in part, why the Open Division was created in the first place and is certainly an option for you.

The Directors feel Observers lend credibility to the tournaments (and most of us agree) and with the Challenge Cup and a lot of money at stake Observers are a necessary evil , albeit, a pain in the butt sometimes.

If you're having trouble locating an Observer check with that tournament's Director---all of the Directors keep lists of people wanting to be Observers.

[Time Out]

It is a pain to get them, but they do help to enforce the rules. I like to think of all the people that I would have never met if it werent for the fact that they were observers. Some have become good friends over the years. Like paul said, ask the directors from each port and they usually know of somebody willing to do it. If you are looking for Niagra contact Bill Hilts Jr, or sometimes they even have names at the Newfane Marina.

[HAMMER]

Just wondering Paul how did the spring tournament go they have a no communication rule big money and no observers. Maybe this will be the future for others?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Paul Czarnecki]

Just wondering Paul how did the spring tournament go they have a no communication rule big money and no observers. Maybe this will be the future for others?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Im not sure what "spring tournament" you're referring to Scotty but the WHI had Observers and the Big Jon in April had observers on the top ten boats for Day 2. Both tournaments went off well with no incidents that I know of. However......without observers on Day 1 of the Big Jon would anyone "really" know if there was anything shady going on?

Like I said I think Observers are a necessary evil given the amount of money at stake in these tournaments.

[A-TOM-MIK]

without observers on Day 1 of the Big Jon would anyone "really" know if there was anything shady going on?

With the typical "glass half empty" attitude you can walk around your entire life wondering if you have been treated fairly in anything you do.

After the mess the Michigan tourney boys got themselves into with "observes on board" could leave for much thought on any of the possible "shady dealings" within any rule structure.

I am not so sure why there is ALWAYS so much question out there concerning No Communication, I love how during the Tightline's Shootout (a 60 boat sell-out field) when the rules are read about it being a No Communication event it is openly accepted and never questioned !!! It runs flawlessly year after year, no questions, no implications, no what if's, ITS ACCEPTED and each team trusts that your competitor teams will abide by the rules. Just like most all major fishing events outside Ontario and just like the Oswego Pro/Am for 10 years

The various ruling structures are pretty easy to accept once the general pessimism is lost

Tom

[HAMMER]

Sorry Paul I thought you fished the big Jon everyone I talked to said it was great. It Went off without a hitch from what I heard....just maybe if the penalties are stiff enough that IF someone was caught bending the rules the next person would think wow there's no way I would want to be in that guys shoes we can't do that.

Jus sayin observers are very hard for outa town guys a real pain in the ass

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Gill-T]

I should have been more specific. For the amount of money the Amateurs vie for....maybe observers for the

top 10 after day 1. Pros.....yes observers. I don't think we need to drag observers to the captain's meeting either. It is in each contestant's best interest to make sure his/her observer knows the rules since they are placed on a competitor's boat! The rules are on the website, and are handed out in written form. Overkill. To ask an observer to commit to the captain's meeting, then two days of all day observing is too much. Much easier to convince an observer to sign on for one day IMO.

[Fishtails]

Chad, having fished all 4 events in the AM division now for the past 4 years, I really do know what you are saying. I had GREAT observers last year and I think we have another great guy again this year for Niagara, and it has been a joy and pleasure getting to know them. But that being said, when you take into account the time and stress it adds, on top of the low cash payout (due in part to the low volumn of teams), the high price of gas to both tow and run the boat, dockage, high lodging costs, observer pay, entry fees, etc, etc...it's just not worth fishing the AM division under the current structure. I personally have somewhat given up on the AM division, and I'm only fishing the AM in Niagara this year. I was scheduled to fish the AM division in Sodus, but we opted to not fish the Sodus Pro Am at all now and replaced it with the Whitby KOTL event instad due to the new no communication structure in the Big Jon tournaments.

I don't like it because I love the Pro Am format, but you can't fight city hall and IMO it's time to move on unless drastic change takes place FAST! It's just my opinion, but I think the AM division is in it's twilight days and will eventually be replaced by the open division...which in turn will become the "new" AM division. Only question in my mind is how long will they wait to make the move?

[rolmops]

I was an observer last year at the Niagara proam and I loved it. I was very lucky to be on the Spoonfed and in one day I learned more about salmon fishing than in the 2 previous years on my own. As a result I am very anxious to be an observer again this year. I am not the only one who thinks this way. Check this out.All these people are dying to become observers.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=22215

[Time Out]

Rod ? I cant believe your bailing. 1 spot closer to first

[ladyblugill]

what is happening is exacly what i predicted would happen a yr. or two ago. you can go back and check my previous posts to confirm if you choose.the observer rule is just not feasible or practible for many reasons. in my case it's just too small of a boat to accomodate it plus the extra cost of hiring someone to do it is not worth it as i don't know anyone who would spend their weekend doing it.plus i don't really care to spend the weekend with someone i don't even know. is it really worth it?i think as fishtails mentioned the open division would grow if the purse likewise did. but i doubt that will happen as there appears to be too much politics involved

[spoonfed-1]

Ya,

Everybody is just so dam honest there is no need for observers.

Or to lock your house or car.

Nobodys going to cheat for a measly 3 grand in the am and upwards of 10 in the pros.

And lets call it off becuase the waves are 4 foot.

Hell lets do away with the weigh in. Most people have scales on thier boats.

The proams aren't for everybody.

I enjoy them becuse they are as structured as they are. Geared towards the serious tournament fishermen.

Not perfect, but what is?

There are enough derbys on the lake for the guys that don't like the strucure.

Fish those and leave the proams alone.

Good fishing.

Glen

[Gill-T]

Yes rolmops there is always a lot of INITIAL interest, but when people hear the three day commitment.......they back out. I think you may see the open division gather more interest and the top amateurs roll into the pro division on this point, but it has not happened yet.

[ray koziatek]

Iyy Yiii Iyy,,,

Ive done a couple pro /ams....first of all the observer is a must, yes to the perfectly honest man on a great bite day that fish which must be kept tho only 1/2 in longer than min would never slip outa some ones hand..

"

Now saying that the only other option would be to call in "fish on" every hookup have a onboard camera to prove entire fight and at weigh in we could wait in line while the judges review each 6 hr video before accepting final weight.

The observers duty is very important and capt meetings are a must for the new ones or at least have a "rules change sheet " the experianced observer could review and sign

I dont remember 1complaint from a observer (specially at wilson) wher they are treated with some great food ,service,and company..Its a great social event and gives us a chance to see old friends and shake hands with FAMOUS CAPTIANS LIKE "CAPT.JERRY" from "running regulary" opps" Running Rebel".

The 100.00 does give some of us one more "complaint"when we dont finish in the money ,but in hind site most of us drop more money in tackle,hunting trips,vacations, without expectations of winning a 5000.00 shoppin spree or guarnteed a record buck each year.

Ive had several observers turn down the money which is a " Thank You for your time" Gift . not a set fee . (tho we had 1 ask for more )

never fished a "no com." derby being a newbe to the lake but i deffinatly see the benifits..

Ahh yes a field of 30pluss amatures with non com., and a great payout might get some of us "butt and head scratchers" interested again...were all lookin at the perfect tool (puter) to reach out to a concentrated fishing community 7000 members with 20 am teams,,,

[Fishtails]

Ladyblugill,

Some of the most enjoyable memories are getting to meet and know our observers, who often become friends. Also, observers are/were important when the cash payout is/was higher . The way things have turned out, entries have gone down almost every year since I first started fishing the pro ams. At some point rules have to change accordingly to either repair the problems that lead to the decline or revamp them to create new interest.

I have always loved the Pro Am. Almost nobody knows this, but I (yes...me) am the one who came up with the idea of the open division and presented it to the committee in 09. Why....because they were going to dismantle the Am division back then and turn it into a "no rules", no observer, big 3 fish division. I felt then, much as Glen feels now, so I came up with the open division idea to save our much loved Am division.

Here is a response from a committee member to me that I pulled off one of our many emails

Between you and I, I am leaning towards your idea of 2 AM groups, one that

would closely mirror the current arrangement and another "open"

division. Whether that gets adopted or exactly how it would look remains to be

seen.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas and I very much appreciate the

fact that you have kept your word with regard to keeping our discussions

confidential for the time being.

I have always been asked to keep it confidential, but I think enough time has passed Anyhow....maybe I made a mistake back in 09 ? Perhaps the Am should have been restructured....just differently that what they originally proposed ? The committee appears to no longer seek out outside opinions or ideas, so who knows what will happen next? I have not heard from anyone in two years.

[Shade]

Each year there is a post over the Pro/Am rules involving either Observers or Communication. These post get a lot of attention and reactions. This year was the first WIT tournament and it was a huge success and I just wonder why? Was it the no-comm rule, the even field of 6 poles, allowing culling, allowing only kings or open water which led to no GPS co-ordinates?

In my opinion the format inhansed the draw but I believe the biggest part of its success was it was a tournament put together by fishermen for fishermen and if any changes are made to improve the WIT next year it will be what fishermen want.

NO POLITICS

Seriously,my team had no business in the WIT with the field of this magnatude. As I said it was like ridding a mule in the Kentuckey derby but I can tell you this the experience and rush, PRICELESS. I can tell you this, you can not stop my team from continuing to participate, wether we finish in the top ten or bottom ten we will be there. For those teams who cash in you can thank us later for our continuing donations. Just send our table a couple of !

I would like to plead to the the highly respected fishermen out there, you know who you are from East end to the West end. I am asking that in order to keep the Pro/Am from dropping the Amature Division, as individuals or a group, help us get the message to the top committee members the importance a few changes that will help improve participants in both the AM Division as well as the Pro Division. I can not see the elimination of the Observer but there are a few other rules that need attention to draw more participants. I do understand where the smaller boats are coming from with there concern of Observers but I can not believe that with all the experience, knowledge and compassion for this sport a fair a workable structure can not be accomplished.

Thank you

Howie

[ray koziatek]

Ok,Ok,OK,OK,howie 2 times really doesnt make yer post anymore effactive but I hope you get to the docter soon I dont wanna catch any virus you might have ........course the one you have takes many,many,many,many years to catch so I am told..................viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24520

[Shade]

I sssssstuder ssssome ttttttime.

Shade

[spoonfed-1]

Well put Shade.

Glen

[KOPPERKLAD]

I started observing in 2008 in Niagara for Liquid Plumber and have observed in 11 out of the last 12 Proams. Del was a little worried about hiring me seeing I was coming from Massachusetts. The only bad expieriance I had was in Oswego 2008 when I was hired by a team to be thier observer and they backed out and did'n t call me and would not answer any emails or phone calls after I had driven the 300 miles to Oswego. Del bailed me out and found me a place to stay that weekend. That same weekend I hoked up with Jim thompson to be his observer in Sodus. On Tuesday Jim called me {we had never met face to face} and told me his regular observer had come home and he would not need me as an observer. He did invite me to come out and prefish with him in Sodus and he offored to let me come on the boat during the proam. I did go out and prefish and stay with him but Screamer needed an observer so I Observed for Joe and Dave. I have observed for several teams but mostly for Del on the Liquid Plumber. I have made a lot of friends being an observer and have since fished with a lot of them and have enjoyed every minute. Del and I have become good friends and now I fish with him on a regular basis. This year he needed a new team member and he asked me to be part of his team so I will no longer be observing. This did creat a problem because we hav'nt found an observer for the Niagara proam yet.

I believe Glen from Spoonfed could tell a similar story as I believe Richard Bullen was an observer for him last year and it seems like every time Glen post a picture now it is a picture of Richard.

I would like to thank all the teams that hired me in the past and the teams who's boat I observed on and I will see you all in Niagara.

However anyone feels about having observers there can be some positive outcomes and I would like everyone that is considering observing in one of these events to do it and hope that it turns out as good as it has for me.

Chris

[Gill-T]

I concur with Chris. This is a great way to make contacts and learn fishing Lake O. That being said....this late in the game and people still looking for observers. Last year I had a young lady aboard as an observer. Fishing out deep intially on Day 1, we were taking fish early. However, the seas started building and my observer was getting quiet and GREEN. I ended up leaving fish to come closer into calmer waters. The observer is another X-factor on smaller boats that unfortunately could determine your outcome.