got dupped again!!

[momay4000]

Paul,

With all due respect - especially b/c you have a background in science - you have applied a sampling bias to your findings that most fixed broadheads you have found in carcasses have been Muzzys. Your statement seems to imply Muzzy broadheads might be inferior to other fixed blades.

I would argue that most fixed broadheads being used by hunters in the woods are Muzzys, and maybe that's one reason why you're finding more of them than other brands..........lol

- Chris

[Paul Czarnecki]

Paul,

With all due respect - especially b/c you have a background in science - you have applied a sampling bias to your findings that most fixed broadheads you have found in carcasses have been Muzzys. Your statement seems to imply Muzzy broadheads might be inferior to other fixed blades.

I would argue that most fixed broadheads being used by hunters in the woods are Muzzys, and maybe that's one reason why you're finding more of them than other brands..........lol

- Chris

That's EXACTLY why I have found so many of them Chris---a LOT of people use them. However, it does exemplify the fact that NO broadhead---even a "Bad to the Bone" Muzzy---can penetrate hard bone reliably and a non fatal hit is still a non fatal hit regardless of the broadhead used.

Buck's link to the research is a very enlightening one and is particularly useful if one is thinking about bowhunting elk, moose or cape buffalo. However, to think you must use a 650 grain arrow, driven at 350 fps, carrying a 2 blade fixed head just to break some ribs on a whitetail is a stretch. My advice still stands-----avoid the shoulder at ALL costs and you should have no problem recovering your deer--regardless of your setup.

[Paul Czarnecki]

Paul, I am going to switch topics on you.. You mention that you hunt in PA.. I am curious to get your opinion on the impact of antler restrictions in PA... It has been a number of years and i hear that it has made a huge differnce.. You are obviously someone that has spent a lot of time hunting pre and post antler restriction, so I thought it would be intereting to get your view.

Tbarb......PA's antler restrictions were the BEST thing to EVER happen to PA deer hunting. The Management benefits aside, from a "hunting" standpoint I think the antler restrictions helped bring PA back to a "hunting" state instead of a "killing" one. You actually now have to hunt for deer---not just wait by the road for a young dumb one to run by.

I think it has brought back a lot of the "sport" of hunting and its relationship to wildlife management and helped do away with the sense of entitlement that PA hunters have had with regards to getting "your deer".

From a business standpoint....well, I can't tell you how many times, in the last 10 years, I have heard....."I HAVE to get it mounted...its the biggest buck I've ever killed!" The past 4 years I have rough scored all the PA racks that come in for mounting and, as of last year, the AVERAGE score was 138! From what I have laying on the shop floor right now, I can tell you that average will be MUCH higher this year.

Deer hunting has NEVER benn better in PA!

[momay4000]

Paul,

I agree with you 100%.

FWIW, I shoot Muzzy 100g 3 blades and have shot many a deer with them but never lost any. That being said I'm a wimp and I limit my shots to 20 yds or less. I practice 30 yds., but only feel confident 20 yds or less. Over the last four years, every deer I took with them was a pass through.

Thanks for responding - good luck,

- Chris

[buckboardjr]

I never promoted any brands and didn't want my input to start a debate on brands. There is so much data in Ashbys findings that is relevent, that all bow hunters should take a look at this info and come away with what they can. I have never seen data with this much facts from broadhead, arrow, or bow manufacturers. My observation is this: Great improvements in combound bows and affordable carbon arrows all came on the seen at the same time. Everone begain to capitalize on both with super speeds and flat trajectories. Most hunter to hunter experiences over the past 10 years revolves around light arrows at fast speeds. The few that are utilizing todays bows for flinging heavy arrows are doing so on safaris and super big game and the average Joe is saying these are just deer not Elk or bear. As Ashby says ,"Why make your set up for when everything goes right, make it for when things go wrong". Such as hiting the shoulder web mistakenly. You do see arrows such as GT Kinetics, FMJ ect coming on line. They are leaning toward heavy. One thing cool about reading Ashbys findings is understanding How resistance to penetration is so much greater as speed increases and why kinetic energy or momentum comparisons between a light fast arrow to a heavy slow arrow of the same energy are not an apples to apples comparison. And Paul I don't expect 350fps with a 650gr arrow. I do hope to be above 250fps though. The "LIVE FIRE" tests indicate that will do the business on large bone.Keep in mind I will never purposely target a shoulder or back.

[sgtstalker]

I took the jump this year and spent the money on the rage after seeing some holes in deer last year. This year my son and I both have had disapointment. They were not huge bucks but nice does. We both shoot mathews with the carbon arrow. We have both has shoulder shots with diapointing penitration with of course no exit hole. We had little to no blood and what a sick feeling knowing we had just wounded the deer. Both arrows were broken off with over half of the arrow presummed in the deer. I went back to a Warrior FX 100 and have had the same shot and blown right through with good blood and fast harvesting of the deer. I am not sold on the rage as it failed twice for me in just wounding or slow death of the deer. But I have seen great results also just not a product I will return to.

[seasquirrel]

I never had any problem with penetration before. Ray, they make a pill for that. Just kidding of course bud!

[skipper19]

Many moons ago I was hunting with an AMF Wing compound bow (that was alot of moons, AMF is long gone) It was the fastest bow on the market at the time. ....any how, I was using the Wasp three blade head on aluminum arrows and 31 inch draw at 70lbs. this bow was the best let off available at the time with a really forgiving 50% holding reduction and no real discernible wall.

The wasp head was available at the time with 3, 4, or 6! blades and a round bullet point in 125 grain. Made sense to me that the more things (blades) to penetrate the target the harder it would be to get depth in penetration, so I stuck with the 3 blades. When I made a shot on a deer with the wasp, I had the same misfortune of hitting the shoulder and thought I had good hit with the arrow sticking out the other side of the deer as it ran. Almost dark tracked the blood for a ways just to make sure of a trail to follow and marked it as I went. Returned the next day and tracked with a friend. 300 yards up the side of the mountain and jumped the deer but no shot. It ran pretty good for a shoulder hit I thought and never caught up to it again. Month later, rifle season, my friend shoots the same buck and the wound is all healed up, just a hard scab. I asked him to have the butcher do an exploratory of the area and he said the point of the arrow had hit the shoulder plate at an angle and gouged it but deflected away from vitals and exited the upper shoulder above the spine. Well that explains the arrow sticking out the other side. I was hunting on the ground and as I released the buck lowered himself for the initial launch at the twang of the old AMF. The round point of the Wasp would not be able to "dig in" and drive through.

After that I decided to go with a chisel point design and although I have not had the chance to screw a shot to far forward and high, I have had good results with the rib cage and a spine shot (nearly straight down) and a neck shot facing nearly straight at me at 28 yards all with the Thunder head on either the heavy aluminum or the carbon 400s.

I have been thinking of the mechanical broad heads, but I know the Physics of things and was a little skeptical of a heavy bone hit. It is true that shot placement is everything but I still believe that a chisel point is best for cracking a hard bone. It's like, what do you grab when ya have to break a nut or bolt that won't budge and the corners are rounded off. The old sharp chisel is the tool to split the hard object. The spine hit was the convincing proof. Dead center of the spine and it smashed through the bones just inside to the aorta running along the underside. I have no reason to change my thinking on the resistance of bone against any thing but a chisel point but the razors are the weak link there. not convinced the razors will survive a pass thru bone and go to the vitals intact. maybe one or two might, but like I say have not had the shoulder experience again since the wasp. The spine hit was an 85 grain Thunderhead and the blades did stay intact but were bent up pretty bad. Hey....it's archery, and it has it's limitations. Bad hits are gonna happen, and when the animal has some size and age it is a much tougher frame to deal with. too many variables to conjecture what might happen, but preparing for the worst scenario can decrease the limitations somewhat.

Go get him Ray, do not get discouraged. I have been there with you and yes it is frustrating, but you were excited and I know you are playing it over and over again second guessing what may have been. Just refocus and enjoy the rest of the hunt my friend. Good luck!

Mark

[buckboardjr]

Mark,

I admire your concern for preparing for the worst and a I can tell that you like to be knowledgable about the performance of your broadheads and arrows. I'm sure if you start reading Ashbys data, especially bone penetration, and broadhead performance, you'll start debunking alot of myths, accepted conceptions, and misinformation. Ashby's main premiss of bone penetration is right in line with your thinking. Bust the bone as you would with a chisel and resistence is relieved. Though his "Live Fire " tests prove the 2 blade, tanto tipped, single bevel sharpened, 3 to 1 sloped, broadhead to be the most efficient, and have blades left to hemerage vitals after bone penetration. Take a look.

[ray koziatek]

Paul before ya spank me you should read all my post I didnt aim for the shoulder DUH! Iknow I came a little unglued and puled theshot 2in off..some day when i become a flawless shooter ill get my bucks like the guys on tv opps never mind just saw a few misses and missplaced shots on a real tv show...boy them guys could really use your coaching ..so they dont mess up on live edited tv. thanks for the wonderfull tip.

[skipper19]

Buckboard, I have looked at the site you posted and yes it makes sense that a single bevel edge on a long taper HEAVY blade (thickness, ridged, strong) with some weight behind it will have the best chance of breaking bone and wedging through with minimal edge deformity to still cut vital tissue.

I like the samurai single bevel. It looks like a great deer size killer. Very expensive but it would definitely make the best of any marginal shot including one that a mechanical would shine at, and that would be the dreaded gut hit. As far as bone splitting this single bevel would offer the least resistance to passing through a hard object due to the one bevel being the only wedging edge and that could best be compaired to the way an ice auger has a single bevel to cut and wedge It's way through ice as if it were able to pull It's self through. Sharpness is the key., and we all know how hard the ice can be on a 10 degree day when all you want is a Sharp auger and catch some fish. I BELIEVE!

Maybe some serrated edges like the ones on the Thunderhead Edge could help with tissue and vessel damage.

Mark

[ Post made via Android ]

[buckboardjr]

I'm with you on the Samurai. I had chose that one as well. It does deviate from Ashbys best broadhead,"Mod Grizzly" in 2 ways.

That's Mechanical advantage of the incline slope angle of the blade and the width. I was liking that extra width for the same reason I have always loved mini blaster3 1 3/4 cut. For extra hemerageing, but as you read all his research, the insured pass thru for an exit wound apears to win over for retrieval of the animal. I think I'll at least try to mod some grizzlys and see if they will fly. Steel Force has a traditional head that is not on thier web site. Can be got at 3 rRivers Archery. It would be a screw on and go blade.

http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=5788X

http://grizzly.awardspace.com/

There are alot of people that are gonna say, "those are for long bows & recurves, They won't fly at compound speeds". Won't know till you try. It's my understanding, if you tune your bow, use the proper spine, use a properly alligned head and helical vanes they will.

I am at present shooting Magnas stingers at 302-311fps, 414grpkge spot on out of a Monster6. All I shoot during season for practice is my broadheads. They are right on. In the past I couldn't get broadheads to fly like my field points. My old bows had lots of shock, regular rests, "NON" Level string travel and my unwillingness to experiment $ with diff spine arrows. Also using full helical vanes. The Switchback and Monster both toss fixxed blades with nice goups to 55yds. I even screwed an old Bear razor back in and it held it's own "Though Low" out to 45 yds with the switchback. Monster didn't like it. Not enough spine

[Paul Czarnecki]

Paul before ya spank me you should read all my post I didnt aim for the shoulder DUH! Iknow I came a little unglued and puled theshot 2in off..some day when i become a flawless shooter ill get my bucks like the guys on tv opps never mind just saw a few misses and missplaced shots on a real tv show...boy them guys could really use your coaching ..so they dont mess up on live edited tv. thanks for the wonderfull tip.

Ray, you completely misunderstood my post. I wasn't "spanking" you for hitting the shoulder---I did the same thing this year. I know you've killed enough deer to know that a shoulder shot is NOT a good shot. I was "spanking" you for blaming your broadhead for you not getting that deer. You missed your aiming point and hit the shoulder and didn't kill the deer. That is an unfortunate part of bowhunting---sometimes we don't hit exactly where we want to. BUT....it is NOT the fault of the broadhead. Sorry if you took my statements as condescending "tips".

[skipper19]

Maybe we could all go to Andy's farm and he could collect some cow scapula for us to do some bone busting research.

[ Post made via Android ]

[Paul Czarnecki]

Maybe we could all go to Andy's farm and he could collect some cow scapula for us to do some bone busting research.

[ Post made via Android ]

OR.........we could avoid the shoulder at all costs! AND.....if we do MISS and happen to hit the shoulder bone, leg bone or neck muscle we chock it up as a MISS and not blame everything and everyone for not killing the deer with a non fatal shot.

Good luck to everyone on Saturday and remember---leave the shoulder shots to the guys shooting the 7mm Mags and 30-06's!

[skipper19]

Just preparing for the inevitable Murphy law. The shoulder is not the Target but it is closer than the paunch for a miscue. An inch of error to the boney structured shoulder is shooter error that still has vitals behind it. Wrong application of broadhead is under preparing for a non perfect shot. Might as well have the advantage and over come the odds of a non fatal shoulder mistake. Yes I said mistake, we are not aiming for any bone heavier than rib. But a little understanding of what a combo of a particular setup with all the variables that are possible can do in an attempt to make the best of a bad situation. There are People conducting tests of results on a 55 gallon barrel, plywood, jugs full of red water...lol. last time I was on a hunt I hadn't seen any deer wearing those things for armor. Maybe then the 30-06 or 7mm mag would be good but a 30-30 should do just fine without the armor.

[ Post made via Android ]

[on the lam]

Im aiming for the shoulder on Saturday

[Fish Hunter]

On Saturday the shoulder won't stand a snowball's chance in hell.

[ray koziatek]

Yea was a little punchy after 10 hr drive home...and not a 100% good trip to indiana arggh

[chowder]

Maybe we could all go to Andy's farm and he could collect some cow scapula for us to do some bone busting research.

[ Post made via Android ]

I've certainly had lot's of people conduct 'research' on shoulder shots here but, thankfully, so far none of this archery research work has been done on bovine scapulae

[buckboardjr]

Mark- That is what I like about Ashbys research. It is on Live or freshly killed big game rather than foam targets, 55gal drums, or concrete blocks. One thing Ashby does do, is that he actually proves Pauls finding of all the modern inefficient broadheads from ultralight setups burried in bone from accepted whitetail gear. 95% or more of hunters setups are below the bone penetrating threshold weight, with most of them having 1/2 the mechanical advantage they could have. Another interesting finding of his is the poorer penetration of the cut on contact, sleek 3 bladed broadheads.When I look at the 3 blade Montec, Snuffer, Slick trick,thunderhead,they all look so efficient but surprisingly they don't do so well. Even 4 bladed heads do better than the 3 blades.

Until a decent # of hunters get out there and start showing results, not alot of people are going to give up their flat trajectories for

experimentation. If I start plunking deer with the new setup, even if I have spot on shots, sooner or later I'll blow something out on the exit side of a quartering away shot to proof it. I have had 4 quartering away kills where My broadhead got hung up on the exit side shoulder and the arrows were broke off on the run. Those my become pass throughs as well. Last day tomarro time for bed..

[skipper19]

I feel bad for Ray. He got dupped and that was what caused his ultimate demise. I know he was watching those commercials where the goof cave man kills the terrifying T-REX and the pterodactyl. His eye was on the cave woman, and saw how the hero of the day was winning the beautiful cave woman with all her teeth still intact. She flew right over to him without a second glance at the buffed (not buffy) caveman flexing his biceps on rocks. The obvious point of the commercial being totally misunderstood is understandable, (I think I can say that?) any how, Ray feels that this broadhead has to be a magic bullet, and the result will be simple. Get the pretty female without actually buffy hunting anymore! What a great concept!

Well the T-REX of all pachyderms, the buck of a lifetime comes along and Ray goes for the pump station right behind the scapula of the huge beast. Now he said he only got 2 inches penetration from his BROAD?head. What's that all about? It's unfortunate that commercials should be so misleading and cause such frustration to good folks like Ray, and have him get bruised ego, (and knees from kicking his azzz with both feet..at once) for not seeing the real point of the add.

The Rage, like all retractable mechanical broadheads flies true and straight like a field point, and that is is best attribute. So the moral here is keep yer eyes on the prize, the terrifying T-REX and giant flying reptile, or the huge pachyderm of a buck with thirty points!

This way you will choose what works best for ya Ray, and then you can post the prize and your buffy (not buffed) pics here on LOU to all who admire you for your gracious enlightenment to us of your tried and true (i think?) experiences! Thank you oh great OMGANOTHERSHORTFATBALDONE, for you have shed some light (and hair) on our quest to find the ultimate broad attrac...I mean Ummmm er HEAD! now go gitcher gun and use bullets. Never mind the girl, git the monster buck and post a pic and another great story for us!....Best of luck oh great Baldy! and be safe, stand clear of falling pterodactyls!

Mark

[ Post made via Android ]

[idn713]

G5 montecs. Killed five deer with the same broadhead. Incredible

[ Post made via Android ]