2nd time around-- 2nd rut?

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Before the explosion of fishing threads start, I'd like to put this out for discussion. Perhaps the real farmers(Chowder), or the guys with 200 trail cams(Rebel) can provide some insight.

Every year around now, a few Big slammer bucks slip up, despite the increased pressure in the woods. My observations lead me to believe that its the few unbred does or doe fawns that do them in. Once the mature bucks get into the "groove", they are reluctant to stop.

My questions are; Do the big alpha does run from the yearlings until they "hook up" with the desired dominant buck? or; When the time is right and he's not there to fight for her, will she "stand" for a lesser buck? I know that the 2nd or late rut action is two fold, does that cycled in and went unbred will come into heat approx a month later, and fawn does will sometimes come into heat later than the mature does.

I have seen an exceptional amount of chasing this season, involving first racked bucks. I think the property we are hunting on is "doe heavy". Despite that, the does look like there's nary a chance of them ever standing for one of "micros". We all have a fair amount of night time pics of good bucks, but have seen none of them chase, and a few "cruise" sightings. I'm sure the buck to doe ratio has everything to do with the dynamics of the rut. Love to hear others observations.

[rolmops]

When deer breed it is not always successful the first time around and the does that did not take the first time around or did abort at a very early stage, will go in heat for the second time,but only if they have plenty of food and they have to be in what is called a "positive energy period". This means that they are still gaining some weight. This is very similar to dairy cattle (about sixty days after calving) except that the rut period is only in fall.

[Reel Doc]

The closest farmed ruminants to whitetails are sheep and goats as they typically start to cycle with decreasing daylight in the Fall. The first 15-19 day cycle 70-85% come into heat and 60-75% actually conceive. That leaves 25 to at most 40% to cycle during the second 15-19 day period. For whitetails that second cycle is now. A mature buck who took care of most of his does the first time around is more inclined to expand his territory now in search of does, provided hunting pressure has not turned him nocturnal. Even so he'll wander but only in view of a trail cam. One of my wall hangers I took a few years back in late November. He walked through with a doe. I had hunted hard that year all bow season and never saw him or sign of a buck like him on our property. Last year during late bow season saw 2 different beauties come through, one from the kitchen window, and one who bedded down 60 yards from my stand then got up and headed around me. With him, the doe in heat can and the buck grunt did not spur his interest. I'm hoping he comes around again this year. So I for one believe the next 3 weeks offer some good opportunities to see a good one. I will add that a large portion of farmland around me sees heavy gun hunting pressure which definitely adds to the late season opportunities including does who tend to bed in some of the really thick areas on our land. I would do the same thing if I were getting constantly pushed and shot at on the neighboring land.

Greg

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[W.W.IV.]

Back in the 90s on thanksgiving afternoon we just drove a small woodlot and were heading for the truck when I spotted a doe coming out into a cut corn lot and shortly after a nice 12pt jumped the fence got his leg cough in it and went ass over tea kettle in a heap, you can tell where his mind was. watching them with the glasses I kept seeing another buck in the background . My son and his buddy were going to try and get around behind them and I stayed where I was. Shortly a doe ran past me and stopped about 25yds away,an other doe came out,no it was a spike buck, good size with 12in. spikes and mounted the doe, I had the scope on him but I didn't shoot, I turned back to the run they came from and I could hear the big guy coming grunting all the way but the spike had his way with her. Maybe it was just a warm up for her. We look at the spike to be the lesser deer but she saw things differently. . This season I think ThanksGiving was the main rut give or take a day or two. Last season the end of BP season I was lining the sights up on a nice doe running on three legs, thought I'd do her a favor before the dogs did when a nice 8pt. came running up the hill to check her out and went back down the hill and out of sight. The season before on the last day of BP I watched a good buck, 8or10pt. chase a doe into a corn lot and mount her right in front of God and everyone. I'd say the 30day second rut is right on.I also saw where a buck was putting in scrapes in two foot of snow at the end of gun season witch was most likely a year with a early rut.

[Silver Fox]

After the first few days of gun season, the last 5 or so days of gun season I do pretty good on bucks. I never see them chasing, most of them are cruising around. Too much hunting pressure in between, but when the last few day hit, it's like someone turned on a switch with these bucks. My personal best (120ish) came 4 seasons ago, the last saturday of regular season at about 10:30am.

[machzrcr]

A neighbor here in Macedon just shot a 150" 8 point chasing a doe today! amazing deer 22" spread 13"g2's 10" g3's.

[Gill-T]

Have been hunting properties in near Salamanca, West Almond and Wales. I have yet to see daytime chasing this year. Too warm IMO. All the nookie has been taking place at night. WE NEED SNOW.

[T_barb]

I was hunting an open field Saturday morning and had a 6 point chase a doe and her fawns into the field... he was on her, but she wanted nothing to do with him.. I dropped her and let him walk to get bigger....

There has been so little shooting this year that I am not sure how pressured the deer are... On my property, the deer seem to be acting like they do during bow season.. I am curious to see what happens when the tempertures drop later this coming week..

I am hopeful that the mature bucks will start to move some more and start feeding during the day to get ready for winter..

We will see...

[chowder]

White tail bucks are physiologically 'ready to breed does when their antlers are hard and become less reproductively aggressive when they begin to lose their antlers. Consequently they are as a group willing and able to breed over a relatively long period of time.Whitetail does have a relatively short true standing heat of about 24 hours but will attract the interest for 2 1/2 days on either side of her true heat. If a doe does not get pregnant she will cycle again in 28 days. White tail does tend to cycle fairly tight inside specific geographical areas because they have been selected by nature to do so. White tail does w/ good nutrition have a very high conception rate of somewhere around 85%. This means that relatively few bucks can maintain a population of whitetails within a certain area.

Consequently we can see that 'the rut' is actually a spectrum of breeding events that could be described quantitatively as the classic bell shaped curve. The beginning of the rut is the first part of the curve where a relatively few does are in heat, the fat part of the curve is where most of the does are in heat and the end of the curve is where the last few does are bred.

As an avid hunter and somebody who has been in 'deer country' farming for quite a while I would say that my experiences mirror the physical reproductive facts I have described above. Bucks are ready to breed does before there are many does in heat , they are then as a group ready to breed as many does as possible in the 'tight' part of the breeding season, they then become gradually less focused on breeding does till the shortest days of the year which does not really present a problem because there are so few does coming back into heat because their conception rate is so high.

Everything I have come to see and know about White tails suggests strongly to me that although there may be a small population of does that may roughly cycle a 2cd time as a group, I believe it is more more important to understand that the average buck is still looking for open and cycling does before and after the fat part of the breeding curve. This what makes him reckless and vulnerable. Just remember guys that reckless and vulnerable also means unpredictable which is why patterning works best both early and late in the season and focusing on high buck traffic or seeking corridors works best during the peak of the rut.

[ray koziatek]

after 24 years marrage their ant no such thing as a second rut...yup once a year ,and unlike the lucky deer it ant for 24 hrs straight its a one shot 15sec deal ....

[Legacy]

90% of all rut activity we all see is 1.5 year old bucks chasing does. While its a great thing to witness, its really not a good dipiction of the rut or if things are "hot and heavy". The single most important thing to consider on the timing of the rut is "are there mature bucks on their feet during the day?". 1.5 year old bucks are pumped full of testosterone and act like teenage boys around the girls and they are looking for any kind of positive response from them. On the other hand mature bucks typically wont be on their feet until the first doe is in heat and not until that happens will they begin their pursuit. The first rut usually breeds 70-80% of all does 1.5 years and older. The unbred does will cycle again along with this years does (born ontime mid may- early june) about a month later. For all of you who believe in the full moon theory this would be the 3rd full moon after the autumn equinox. If it was up to mother nature then mature bucks would do all the breeding but with our buck herd dominated by younger bucks and the buck to doe ratio that tends to favor does, the chances of 1.5 year old bucks being a part of the breeding process is great. A does breeding window is short. About 24 hours. But she has a tendency to smell right 24 before and 12-24 hours after so bucks will stay with them for this entire time period which is almost 3 days. A breeder buck will go from girl to girl and will be quite busy for the entire breeding phase. A young buck will continue to seek and certainly take every opportunity put before him. While i believe does prefer mature buck, whether they are programed to seek dominate mates or if they simply prefer the maturity level of a older buck over a "teenager". if the time is right a doe will not let herself go unbred. So when opportunity knocks...

Typically the second rut comes and goes without anyone ever even knowing. The seeking/ chasing phases are almost never seen, largly due to the decreasing buck population. Matures have felt the pressure in the woods by now and the majority of the exciting daytime rut activity happens at night.

Once the rut is over priority one for mature bucks is to put the replenish themselves and put some winter weight on. Typically the last week of gun season and more importantly the late season provide an chance to witness this and also an opportunity, once again, at a big buck. Resorting back to tactics and patterns that were successful during the first week of the archery will prove be successful again as bucks (and does) return to their prerut behavior.

[Fish Hunter]

Have killed good bucks displaying rut-type behavior at the tail end of regular gun, and even into muzzle season.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Great stuff guys, thanks!

[Fish Hunter]

December 7th, is/was supposed to be peak of 2nd rut.

Folks that hunted around the Stockbridge Valley today, said they had doe and buck sightings.

Couldn't slip out of the shop this afternoon, but my son, and myself will be sitting tight by 2 pm tommorrow.

[FX]

Thanksgiving weekend we had a lot of activity with chasing and fresh scrapes and rubs. Last weekend ...... Nada, zip! Just typical doe groups feeding, small buck sightings and mature bucks elusive. Maybe this weekend will be different with the colder temps.

Shawn

[Mortigan]

I'm hoping. I'd like a buck/doe combo Saturday morning so I can head to Syracuse for the first round of holiday parties.

[JakeyBaby]

As I headed out yesterday evening i saw a lot of fresh tracks in the snow that we have been waiting all season for! this lead me to believe this cold weather had the deer on there feet again! Saw to first rack bucks and that was it for my evening. On my walk back in I came across a FRESH opened up scrape that was not there 2 1/2 hours earlier!! Dec. 10 and fresh scrapes....??? I geuss the "experts" will tell you though that the 2nd rut usally kicks in 30 days past the fall equinox..(spelling might be wrong on that) . So all i can say is from the buck movement and sign i have seen in the last few COLD days if you still have tags u better be in the woods now! This is one of yer best chances to shoot that BIG one or just see a lot of deer movement! Good Luck

-Jakey Baby-

Matt

[Fish Hunter]

Saw freshened scapes as well, over the past few days.

Took 2 doe yesterday. One was HUGE!

Took the morning off, and were heading to the farm in a few minutes.