.223 for deer?

[711skwerlz]

I've done some research on this and know it will start an argument and there are better choices. I'm just looking for some of your opinions. My littlest brother will be old enough to gun hunt soon and really likes the .223. Bullet style and size will be a factor all shots will be under 150 yds most being under 80yds. Any suggestions or experience with this would be great. I do handload so custom ammo is an option.

[zackblain]

62 grain tax or a swift scirroco will do just fine when put in the right place

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[Fish Hunter]

It'll kill 'em.

I'd instill, the "Aim small, miss small" truth in him, though.

[fishlander22]

heck, you can kill a deer with a .22LR if placed right, but would you try?

i am sure a .223 will kill a deer but do you really want to take a chance

that the youngin (although a good shot i am sure) will be able to make the

perfect shot at his first deer? i have been hunting those fur wearing buggers for

20 yrs and still get buck fever. better to get him a .243, not much more recoil but will put a whitetail

down a lot faster......

just my opinion.......

[Mortigan]

Any centerfire is legal in NY but you assume a certain responsibility when you hunt. Use a caliber that will deliver more energy at impact - you want to maximize your possibility of a clean kill.

[Total Chaos]

Personally when my daughter is ready to hunt in a few years I'll give her the Encore Muzzleloader with 80 grains of Blackhorn 209 and a 200 grain Shockwave. Very little recoil because of the light bullet and more than enough power to kill out to 100 yards.

On a side note, I did see a realtree show years ago where David Blanton took his son out for the first time in Texas with a 223 and it did just fine.

Total Chaos

[salmonboy41]

Nothing wrong with using a .223, i've killed serveral deer with a .222 mag, which is basically the same thing. I'd say that if he likes the .223 let him use it, this way hes comfortable and wont be scared of the recoil like he maybe if he was using a larger caliber. for bullets i shoot 55 grain soft pionts and every deer i've shot with them i've totally stoned with them.

[chowder]

Personally when my daughter is ready to hunt in a few years I'll give her the Encore Muzzleloader with 80 grains of Blackhorn 209 and a 200 grain Shockwave. Very little recoil because of the light bullet and more than enough power to kill out to 100 yards.

Total Chaos

This guy has it right! Train the lad to use a muzzle loader with open sights (I'd probably go w/ 100 grains of powder and the 245 grain power belt we use in everything else but that's academic)

IMHO starting young hunters out with even a .243, although well intentioned, is absolutely the wrong path to go down. Inexperienced hunters are just flat out going to be the most likely candidates for the marginal shot. Marginal shots w/ a small caliber rifle typically leads to heartbreaking results. An inexpensive open sight inline muzzle loader teaches many different lessons about sight picture, follow thru,etc and has the energy essential to creating massive damage even on marginal shots. When you are tracking a kid's first deer is not the time or place to contemplate theoretical ballistic possibilities.

[Tall Tails]

I am sure we could debate this all day long and everyone has there way.

In my view a muzzle loader just does not have the Kinetic energy that a 243 has. The idea with young hunters is to have them successfull right out of the gate. I think a scoped 243 or even a 257 Roberts can do the trick. Time on the range is most important but with the knockdown power a centerfire cartridge carrys will make the kill quick and clean. There is more room for marginal shots with a muzzle loader then a centerfire rifle. I know several kids who were very succesfull this last fall shooting 243's.

I knew plenty of "old timers" that shot 223's but the kill shot was the head, not the shot you want to teach a youngster.

Just my 2 cents!

Either way getting the youngsters involved is the way to go!!!

[Fish Hunter]

The farmer we hunt on, shot am 11 pt, gooooood mass, 18", with a .22 Hornet.

Didn't kill it with the first shot at all.

Finally killed it, down in a ravine.

He said is was a m/f getting it out of there.

On the flip side of that, when my Ruger 77/7mm Rem Mag barks,(proud to say that rifle has a 100% kill rate) the game I've aimed at is down, on the spot.

I do agree that a .243 is a better choice.

We always killed 'em dead with shotguns,(35 years with the scatter-guns) until they allowed rifles about 4 years ago.

Maybe a good beginers set-up would be an accurate single-shot 20 ga.?

[rod hog]

/

Edited April 5, 2014 by rod hog

[T_barb]

Just another suggestion...

Savage 220, 20 gauge bolt action slug gun...

I got one last year and even with 3" Federal Slugs, it is a joy to shot... Very little recoil and the accu-trigger really is a great learning tool for a noive shooter (...or an experienced shooter for that matter)...

Not to mention that the accuracy of these shotguns is incredible. I have had 3 shot groups at 100 yards with all 3 holes touching.. plus, the knock down power of the sabots are fantastic.. I am using the federal 3" Barnes Expanders and after 3 deer, there has been no tracking required.

It is a great weapn and really is a pleasure to shoot....

Just my 2 cents..

[Mortigan]

Just another suggestion...

Savage 220, 20 gauge bolt action slug gun...

Valid choice - I started with a Ithaca 20 gauge.

[Hookedup]

My oldest daughter is goiing to turn 9 next weekend. She did a lot of shooting with me this summer with the 22 cal and the 7mm-08 remington I baught her. I got her the Howa it came with the youth and adult stock so she can grow into it. It had some zip with the reg 140 gr bullets so I got two boxes of the managed recoil amoo 140 gr core lokt psp. She was putting them threw the same hole at 100yds and the ammo is good out to 200 with only a drop of 3.6 at 200 with a 150yd zero. I have 223 rifles and they never get used, with this gun if its a deer or a bear down the road she can kill it. Keep it fun, each kid is different I have been a firearms instructor for years and one of the things that can mess folks up is the sound. Get good hearing protection and have targets that are fun to shot at. Sean

[Gill-T]

Autoloader.....no recoil. Only put one bullet in to teach one-shot kill. Up to a 30-30......there is negligible recoil of rifle bullets compared to a shotgun slug.

[711skwerlz]

I appreciate everyone's input. Although I was looking for info on just the .223 I do have other options for him including 2 20 ga shotguns and a .243. Thanks everyone for your opinions, keep it coming.

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[Knotlost]

Bullet makes a huge difference. I made some loads up with some barns solids and the worked perfect! You can shoot it like a 270 and it will work good. I would not like it with most bullet types for deer, you have to be very fussy with bullet selection.

[tangleweed1]

My son has been hunting for three years he's 10 now he shots a 308 with managed recoil loads 170gr he's done well with this setup but it definitely lacks that knock down power even with a well placed shot I would definitely shy away from a223&243 just my opinion

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[rdebadts]

I've shot and killed probably a dozen deer with a 243 without any trouble but I know a guy who has used a 223 several times with success. Shot placement is the big issue with the 223

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[flybuster]

may i ask why you or him like the 223 vs something a little bigger ?

AR platform?

personally i think its to small for deer just the jump from 62grain fusion to a 243 i think comes 96 grain is a fifty% increase on bullet weight .

quick story my uncle took his 223 out a couple years back nice ten came in crack buck runs off all hunched up .....yaaaaaaaaaaaaa, ya no how it is , i go to help recover the thing not one single drop of blood to be found spent the rest of the day looking "no snow of course" few days later he stumbeles on the dead deer , tiny pinhole square in the middle of its shoulder, not enough of a hole to even leak out of and that bullett did not have enough energy at fifty yards to blow the bones apart, dont get me wrong it went thru but not with the deviststion my sons 243 has , and the other half of that most certainly bullet type i would assume he was using el cheapo fmj rounds we plink with all summer.

[Knotlost]

The single biggest problem with the 223 is the bullet.

They are just not designed for deer hunting , at least 98% of them are not.. You have paper punching bullets, ball rounds that makes up most of the available rounds, then the varmint rounds. The ball rounds (I'm using that as pseudo, bullets that only go through no one really cares how they expand) are what cause flybusters problem, it just penciled through, energy has nothing to do with it, bullet construction dose especialy in smaller calibers. Varmint rounds explode and are great on small stuff but only wound deer as they don't penetrate.

But put a well made bullet designed for the 233 like the Barnes x bullet, it will make a hole the size of a 45 cal hole in the softest places, it will break ribs, and shoulders, go though hips, and still exit out the other side, blow jaws right off, destroy the neck, a clean hart or lung shot will drop them in less than 100 yards with most within 40 yards.

Trust me its the bullet in this little gun that makes the difference. I'm not just taking, I have the experience and research. A bullet this size for deer is hard to find. Its the only one I trust, other than that go to different calibers because you can find better bullets in them.

By the way you can loose a deer with a 30-06 if you use ball ammo, thousands of guys did after WWII, but most of you don't know much about that.... I even knew guys that used to snip the end off trying to make them work and they still didn't work.

By the way, I kill deer with a 338winmag, so I dont use one, but I have one have used one and I know how to, and have helped many older guys that can not carry a heavy gun get set up with a youth gun and the right ammo and at over 92+ many of these guys are killing deer every year with a 100% sucess rate. Granted they dont shoot over 130 yards ever.

[chowder]

Mr Komrowski is correct in that the devil is in the details and that in many ways it's the bullet and the powder choice, etc that makes a particular caliber choice more or less effective. However, some caliber choices are much more effective than others to cover a wide range of hunting activities for a wide range of shooting abilities. I used to use an old savage 222 w/ hand loads to ear hole does for a QDM manager, but frankly I can't see why anyone would want to teach a youngster the art of hunting and then have to deal with the likely discouraging result from a marginal shot that came from a predictably poor choice of a weapon.

Let's all remember that both stalking/still hunting and shooting are events that are the result of a game of averaging. Put the odds in your favor- show the youth above average hunting skills, show the youth to hunt in above average locations and teach the youth to use a weapon that is likely to have above average results in a close range situation. In my book that precludes a 222, 223 and the 243 for white tail because they are unlikely to produce above average results in below average situations. My first choice is still the 50 cal muzzle loader with open sights because it's inexpensive and eliminates the typical inaccuracy of the 12 bore slug gun at 50yds. If this choice cannot be implemented then I'd go w/ the 12 or 20 gauge shotgun w/ open sights and keep the youngster in heavy cover where the shot is going to be 30 yards or so. If the youngster has truly become predictably accurate w/ a rifle (which is far from the norm at 16 no matter what some will say!) then a 270-308 is a good choice as long as you choose ammo from the upper end of the price range. Remember it really is all about maximizing the youth hunters average success and enjoyment rate.

[Mortigan]

[jimski2]

I won the 223 Winchester Super Short Magnum in Angelica last fall. Any comments? It has the large extractor as the old Model 70's.

[indian]

I didn't even read through this thread... to answer this question.

You do realize that the .223 round is used in military applications to WOUND a human sized target....as in NOT kill. And well, deer will take a whole hellava lot more damage than a human ever thought of, and keep on truck'in. I don't care what kind of bullet or load you plan on using, you'd have to have your head examined to try and actually use this round during deer season. Or you just like wounding animals. Other than the fact that most states require a caliber of at least .30 to hunt big game with.

BTW, the .223 isn't even in the same league, let alone zip code as the .243 as far as wound channel damage goes. Speed/bullet wieght ratio has everything to do with an effective wound channel through tissue.