Am I wrong on this ?

[Has Been]

Jimski reported on ethanol post his friend said he got 21 miles mpg pure gas to 16 mpg to E 10.

That is a litlle more than a 25 % decrease in performance.

There is only 10% eth in the gas.

So ........... If I bought 20 gal of E 10 at 16 mpg I could travel 320 miles.

If I bought 15.25 gal of pure I could travel ......320 miles.

At $ 3.50 / gal that is $ 16.62 more to drive the same distance .

That 10% ethanol is giving us 25% less performance by my math. Are we burning 15 % more pure gas to travel the same distance by adding the ethanol?

If I am in fact correct , why would our elected officials knowing this , and I'm sure they do, decree this to happen?

Surely the great thinkers & Scientific minds of the country did the math on this.

I thought they wanted us to use less oil, not more.

I don't know about the rest of you ,but my fleece aint growin as fast as it use to.

[Bad Habit]

VOTES!!! Since when did common sense have anything to do with politics?

[REZ]

I hear that!!!!

[carpedium]

They probably figure we have to do something with all of that corn the taxpayers subsidize.

[Legacy]

Truth is ethanol will never be the answer!

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

The whole thing is a FRAUD. Lets win some voters out west, lets create yet another false economic boom through subsidies, and lastly while trying to give the the appearance that it is an environmental move, it is in fact a way to raise more revenue through gas taxes. Knowing that the industry is creating cars and trucks with better mpg, what a creative way to still recoup those taxes than to DILUTE the gas so we have to buy more gallons ANYWAY!!!

[rolmops]

It is the 85% ethanol that has only about 66% of the energy that pure gas gives.

If you go to fill up with 85% you will also find that it is about 30% cheaper than the regular 10 % ethanol mix.

The only people that like ethanol fuel are the corn farmers and processors. You will be hard pressed to find even one politician left or right who likes this ethanol thing. What they do like is getting re-elected and messing with the mid western farmers lobby is political suicide for any politician and that is why the ethanol scam is still there.

And Vince no matter how much you dislike our current administration,they did not start it, nor do they want to continue it. Our previous president encouraged it, but also he figured out that it's a hoax,that's why he started talking about switch grass ethanol. Although I am sure that Rush Limbo will accuse Obama of being guilty no matter what. ( he has advertizement to sell)

I don't really understand why the farmers are so gungho about it, if the ethanol thing goes away they will get subsidies for leaving their acrage laying fallow.

Cornelis.

[LongLine]

The only people that like ethanol fuel are the corn farmers and processors.

BINGO! And the people (gas companies) that put it into the gas. All 3 get subsidies.

Corn used to be the #1 export of the US. In 2011 our #1 export was Gas.

HB - Obviously you're confused - Look at you example this way:

With 10 gal of gas at 21 gpm, your car would take you 210 miles.

In order to travel the same 210 mile trip at 16 gpm would require you to use 13.1 gal of the mix. (210 divided by 16 = 13.1) However the 10% mix is actually 90% gas and that 13.1 gallons of mix actually contained 11.8 gal of gas.

In other words, the 210 mile trip that used to require 10 gal of gas now requires you to use 11.8 gal of gas.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Mortigan]

I'll have to experiment and try a tank: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY

[Has Been]

I'm confused? I don't think so.

18 gals pure x 21 =378 miles

20 gals E 10 x 16 = 320 miles

I believe my math is correct .

Point being that under this example, if you bought 20 gals of E 10, you would travel farther if you could take the 2 gals or 10% of ethanol out.

Capn Vince is correct . More Gals means more Taxes. Less corn for food means Grain prices soar. Farm land becomes more valuable and rents go up. Food prices go up . Inflation happens . Farmers make more money to by off local politicals to get more subsidies. Great work if you can get it.

Probably wont go away . Kind of like cigarets . They are bad , get people sick , but we need the tax revenue, so we won,t ban it.

I also like the law just passed to make it ileagal for members of congress to engage in insider trading. Somthing that was thought of as a bit of a perk for our elected officials. Making laws that they know will influence the stock market & profiting from it. No conflict of interest there. The same thing they put Martha Stewart in jail for.

Tar & Feathers anyone?

[Mortigan]

Does it apply to the Senate as well? I've met a few - ever seen a poor Senator?

[Gator]

Don't forget to factor the gas that is used to make the ethanol from corn into your equation.

I see E85 like an entry drug. Pretty soon you're upping the dose and everybody's hooked. Maybe the transition to clean fuel is worth it? The gas savings certainly aren't.

[spoonfed-1]

In June of 2011 the Senate voted overwhelmingly to end the billions of dollars of ethanol subsidies that was set to end at the end of the year.

The Obama administration vowed not to end it.

They are giving an already incredibly lucrative industry, 45 cents of our tax dollars per gallon.

Guess what...They didn't end.

If you are concerned with the direction the country is headed you only have one tool to stop it and thats your vote.

If you don't vote this coming November then don't ****.

Good fishing.

Glen

[LongLine]

HB - you are correct. I was being facitious & should of said that. Bottom line if the 21 & 16 are correct you'd actually use up more pure gas with the mix.

That 210 mile trip would require 13.1 gallons of the mix and 11.8 gal (90%) of the mix would be pure gas. At 21 mpg, you'd only use 10 gal of the pure gas. Point being that you'd conserve gas if the gas was made more powerful rather than less powerful as it is with the ethanol added.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[msuff00]

ethanol ruined my 1yr old chainsaw. when i took it into the small engine repair shop the guy there said hes had the most business in 50 years since they started putting it in the gas

[skipper19]

It's too bad that we can't get the stations around us to sell more pure gas. I have the big 18 wheeler on the road 6000 miles a week. The bio diesel is not as prevalent as ethanol gas. I have the ability to buy diesel in the pure form all the time only because it is not as wide spread as ethanol gas is. If I see the bio blend sticker on the diesel pump I drive right back out, and look for real fuel elsewhere. A personal boycott that is easy for me to do because of its relative non acceptance by truck owners. There is a Petro truck stop in Rochele, Il. And it used to sell 20% bio blend on all but one pump. That one pump was priced for 100% diesel nearly .30 cents higher than other stations selling pure diesel. The bio fuel blend was priced at the same rate as what the 100% fuel was for the other stations selling 100% diesel. WHAT A RIP OFF!...Now, it is priced finally much lower than 100% diesel and moved over to the other side of the islands. Only half the pumps are bio blend now because no one was buying it and the only 100% pump was over priced but that pump was backed up with customers all the time. I guess they got the message.

It's the same problem with bio diesel as E10 gas...no power...and wasted fuel economy. Not to mention my Cat engine has had two injectors go bad ..MECHANICALLY.. before I realized what was going on. 1 injector costs $700. The EPA has put all these clean air farces on us to pay for. Caterpillar has left the country in the heavy on road truck production engines. Cummins and Detroit are struggling to stay in the game with all sorts of experimental equipment on the engine to clean the air up. It's not working very well, just by looking around the shops and seeing all the bays filled with late model engines tore apart with EPA parts scatered on the floor. I have been reluctant to buy another truck because of the guinea pig syndrome. It's just another way of silently boycotting the "change" and "hope" I will survive. It's getting harder though because they force it on you in ways you can't do much about it. As of this time from two years ago, I do not go to California any more. They have mandates of their own, and guess what, I don't have to go there, because there are 47 other states that I can go to without the added cost of compliance. Nobody is paying me to clean the air, nobody is paying me enough to buy a truck engine that has 15,000 dollars of EPA mandate equipment on it. Nobody is paying me for the lost payload due to the 1000 lbs of added DEF fluid or the filter trap in the exhaust system, and the APU that keeps me from idleing to stay warm or cool while parked. It's all designed to make the government richer and us poorer. I hope that the technology begins to work for us, because I would like the air to be cleaner too, but I don't want to be the one flipping the bill at my expense, and America/Canada should not be the only country cleaning up the environment.

So now they want us to have E15 gas, like It's a drug we need. I think I will see what it costs me in gas to go 20 miles to Basom, ny and buy the 100% gas at the reservation, in comparison to driving 4 miles to the Mobil station in town, which is the wrong direction to go to the Oak with my boat.

My F250 with V10 gets approx. 10.5 mpg around home by itself. 9 with the boat behind it. I'll tow the boat down to Basom fill the tank on the boat and the truck...whew might have to take out a loan for that...then make the comparison. I already know the 100% gas will work better in my old 225 two stroke Yamaha. I have experienced that already. The engine pulls an extra 300 rpm with the real gas. It actually sounds much better too!

I wish we had more 100% gas stations around like the 100% diesel pumps so we could send the message that we vote not to buy the alcohol blend. It's just the beginning of the worst government intervention in our lives to come. They have got control of something that we all need and they are whipping us to death with it.

Maybe the farmers will get paid more to plant wind power in their fields and give up on corn for fuel...how much for an acre of land in Indiana alongside of I 65?....priceless!

[ Post made via Android ]

[shadster]

They have got control of something that we all need and they are whipping us to death with it

Truer words never spoken. It is not just the gasoline, but with everything in our daily lives. We do need to be proactive and at least attempt to vote the thuggery out. Sometimes I think it is bigger than all or us. It will take all of us to bring it down to size

Great post.

[Has Been]

Are there any "official "studies out there to confirm this mileage thing?

LL , you are the smart guy on here. Check it out ,and let us know ,like you did on the windmills.

If this is true. The American people need to know about this in a big way. I'll bet most think this Ethanol thing is for the most part good.

[LongLine]

HB

According to Consumer Reports, the mileage drop is definitely real (big time) with E85.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars ... /index.htm

Regarding Ethanol E-10:

Across the nation, there have been many reports that mileage may drop anywhere from 1 to 40%. Looking into why, I’ve run across these items from multiple sources:

Gas has 114 BTU/gal & E10 has 111.8 BTU/gal. Simple Physics says less energy in then less ability to do work out.

Ethanol does have a higher octane rating than pure gasoline however this is recognized as having nothing to do with fuel economy. Gas companies have been accused of lowering the octane of the pure gas mixed with the ethanol, in order to stay within their 87, 89, 93 ratings.

E10 does not burn as hot as gasoline does. Engine warm ups will take a little longer.

E10 does not atomize into small particles as readily as gasoline does; hence special oversize direct fuel injectors are required. (No wonder automakers switched away from carburetors). Also along these lines fuel needs to be preheated to help this atomization.

High compression ratios are required for use of Ethanol. (This is the ratio of the cylinder volume with the piston at the bottom end of the stroke vs the top end of the stroke) This ratio accounts for mixing of the air with the fuel. The higher the compression ratio is, then the more powerful the engine. Autos typically have 9:1 or even 10:1 ratios. Racecars that run high alcohol content fuel have ratios up to 14:1.

Vehicles that normally get low mileage will suffer more than those that get higher mileage. (No wonder Obama offered that “clunker" tax deal.)

Ethanol can be made from many sources. Corn is the most abundant. Cellulose is not nearly as “bad†as corn but is very expensive.

Ethanol is a solvent. It will clean the fuel system as well as eat rubber, fuel pumps and many gasket materials made with rubber.

NEVER add gas additives that contain alcohol or any chemical whose spelling ends with “ol†to your tank of ethanol. (It’ll increase the alcohol content.)

Pro Ethanol sites are very quick to point out (and often harp on it defensively) that driving habits, tire pressure & car maintenance have a big effect on miles per gallon.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Has Been]

A gold star again & thank you for your time on this.

My question , and I do not know how one would prove this, is that it seems to me from what I have seen in some cases , That adding the eth actually makes the gas less effective than it would be by not adding it. ( 10% eth gives the pure gas 25% less mileage.)Maybe that has to do w/ lower octane gas used as you stated.

We will find out more in time.

[jimski2]

My motorhome, with a Ford 460 engine, consumed $1700 of gasoline on my last trip to Florida with E10 fuel. It dropped from 7 MPG to 6 MPG which is a 13% drop in mileage. That was my last long trip as I could have stayed at the Ritz Carlton in Naples with that economy. This year it saved me a lot more as for the first time in 25 years, we stayed home for the fine New York sunshine.

[lakebound88]

@ skipper

I can relate to all of this. I am a heavy truck and diesel equipment technician. While at one view it creates job security and on another note its a PIA to have to rip these new engines apart just to find failure of emission related problems. I love caterpillar.. in my opinion, one of the best built engines to date. However, currently I service international. And they are all about emissions. More and more unnecessary sensors to plug up. Why? Because they are not burning hot enough. Not sure about your cat engine, but do you have a system regeneration? Now that's a pain.. you said that you had two injectors to bad. What was the actual cause? Unless I over read it. Was it fuel related or injector actuator stuck?

[ Post made via Android ]

[skipper19]

Lakebound, thanks for the reply and your service to the heavy duty engines. The injector failure was mechanical and was not an actuator failure. The engine was running rough and no codes were showing up. I asked what was the cause of the injector failure and asked if it was mechanical, then why did it happen? I have owned Cat since 1986 and never once had a failure of the injector mechanically. Could it be the use of some biofuel? The service manager at Milton Cat said it could be possible and that is the reason that Cat does not recommend fuel blended more than 5% (B5). I was running into pumps in four adjoining states that were promoting 20% bio blends. It was almost impossible to get away from it due to the amount of mileage in operation of the truck, and sometimes my shippers would load close to max gross weight 80,000 lbs and I would run the fuel low to stay legal.

The worst set back was the injector trouble, the next was the -10 degree weather and the cloud point of the fuel. Lost a load due to parking at a motel in Wisconsin and the fuel gelled even with additive. The bio just does not respond to fuel conditioners like 100% fuel. So with that going on I avoid the biofuel like the plague. Sometimes I still have to get it because of running the tank low to keep legal weight but I get the absolute minimum and run Lucas fuel conditioner in it to help the cetane and combustion properties. Some btu replacement with Lucas helps keep the turbo boost up and keeps the engine running hotter exhaust to help drive the two stage turbochargers. Power loss is frustrating, and I like being the first to the top of the hill

Luckily my Cat engine is one of the bridge models before the mandated filter regenerated systems. It has 805,000 on it right now and as I write this it is in the shop in Memphis getting exhaust manifold studs replaced but that is the first real engine problem with it. I would say that the injector damage was related to the bio based fuel just for the fact that it was right after and just before I stopped useing the B20 blend. I have since had no more injector problems.

In another post I made a calculation of the use of bio compared with petroleum fuel and the stuff would cost me $16,000 more than regular fuel. That is in addition to the additives and the failures that I blame the bio on. Needless to say I would rather have that cash to stay in my pocket. I have to say I'm really worried about the direction of the transportation industry because of all this. Cat is out of the market, except for rebranding under international maxforce engine. I feel that Cat will eventualy come back with an engine for the class 8 trucks that will be the trend setter,but for now they are experimenting in Europe.

I hope they come back soon, I bleed yellow when cut! ...and all these EPA red and green and grey motors are taking up valuable space for me to get my AC fixed, or get an alternator installed. shops are full of these things

Mark

[ Post made via Android ]

[lakebound88]

Mark, I have a good explanation to your injector failure. All of the information you stated is possible. I'll be on my computer tonight and will message you.

Nick

[ Post made via Android ]

[jimski2]

My good Mercury engine dealer said only use 89 octane for anything, and add stabil blue to it, especially engines that are used occasionally like chain saws, weed wackers, lawn tractors, etc. The octane in E10 evaporates out the vent after 30 days of sitting around your garage.