Is The Pro Am "open" division misunderstood?

[Fishtails]

Fellow LOU'ers

A recent comment made on another thread has got me thinking that the there may be some misunderstandings on why the open division was implemented in the Pro Am in 2009 as a third division, and what it's design and intent is/was all about.

I am no longer in contact with any Pro Am committee members, but in 2008 & 2009 I was. I was fishing the Am division full time and I received a phone call from the committee that there was serious talk within about drastically restructuring the Am division in an attempt to improve participation. In a nutshell, they wanted to remove the observer rule, drop to a 3 fish limit, and remove most of the rules.

This proposed change never went public, as I was asked to keep it in confidence, but in 2009 I fought hard to keep the Am division intact. I am the one who proposed the Open division as an alternative.

Here is a part of one of many 2009 emails from the committee:

Rod:

I have followed closely the thread on LOU and appreciate everyone sharing their

thoughts. At some point in the near future, when the committee has had a chance

to also consider the comments on LOU, one of us will respond or at least refer

interested parties to the pro-am website.

Contrary to what appears to be the belief of many on the thread, we do listen

to the wishes of the participants in our efforts to have one set of rules that,

while not perfect, will work for all four ports. That's how we got to the 6

fish limit for the Am's. Most of the teams we talked to 2 years ago said

that because of the size of their team and their limited amount of time on the

lake (outside of the tournament) they knew that catching 9 fish was well beyond

their ability and they couldn't be competitive. In fact in 2007 when it was

a 9 fish limit, in Niagara for example, there was 41 AM teams X 2 days = 82 AM

weigh-ins. Of those 82 only 15 brought in 6 or more fish and no one got their

limit. I haven't looked at the rest of the events since then but I intend

to before I offer my opinion to the committee on any proposed changes.

Between you and I, I am leaning towards your idea of 2 AM groups, one that

would closely mirror the current arrangement and another "open"

division. Whether that gets adopted or exactly how it would look remains to be

seen.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas and I very much appreciate the

fact that you have kept your word with regard to keeping our discussions

confidential for the time being.

And thus the Am division was spared it's death and a new option to fish the Pro Ams was born. The problem is, that over the following 3 seasons, The Am division continued to shrink. Sure....just like in the new "Am tourney only pole" thread that Glen has going, lots of guys said they were fishing the Am or the open, but never did. What is happening this year with the Am division is not a new thought. The committee has been kicking this around for years as they watched the entries dwindle.

The open division was not developed solely for the lessor experienced, as someone made reference to in another post. That was not the original intent at all. I should know...it was my idea. Rather, it was designed as a third alternative to get people involved that had not participated in a Pro Am before because of the small boat rule, or the observer rule, or couldn't commit to two days, etc. The hope was that guys would fish the "lessor structured" open division, and then move up to the Am division.

Unfortunately, lots of guys said "I'm In....or "sign me up", (just like the am only post) only to never do it for one excuse or another. I can't tell you how many times I heard "I was waiting to see how many would fish it". Really guys? If the majority has that "follower" attitude...the turnout is certain to suck, and it did. The turnout sucked because everyone was waiting for everyone else to sign up. So they didn't fish it and than complained that they heard the turnout was poor so they would not be interested until it improves....no duh?

The open division was developed for anyone who wanted to fish a less structured division, or just couldn't fish the other divisions for whatever reason. It cost less, had over 100% payout, there is no minimum boat length restrictions, no observer, and you can fish either one OR two days and you can cull. With only a three fish limit....a novice can beat the most experienced guy on the lake. It was everything that all the guys who didn't fish the Pro Am's said they wanted...but they didn't fish them anyway

So this season, as the Pro Am moves to a new format and finally lays the Am division to rest....consider this open division if you can't do the pro division. Be part of the most prestigious tournament series on lake Ontario. Anyone can fish the open division....and anyone can win it!!

Just figured I would get this out there. See some of you guys in Niagara

[Legacy]

Well said, Rod!

[Legacy]

The open division was developed for anyone who wanted to fish a less structured division, or just couldn't fish the other divisions for whatever reason. It cost less, had over 100% payout, there is no minimum boat length restrictions, no observer, and you can fish either one OR two days and you can cull. With only a three fish limit....a novice can beat the most experienced guy on the lake. It was everything that all the guys who didn't fish the Pro Am's said they wanted...but they didn't fish them anyway

[Silver Fox]

We've done it the last 2 years and really like it! Longer fishing time would be nice though. We'll probably do it again this year also.

[ Post made via Android ]

[Paul Czarnecki]

Great post Rod! I've stayed out of these discussions simply because I got tired of preaching and hearing the same old excuses. Some people will not fish a tournament if you held it off of their dock! All talk!

[Zebedee]

I fished my first Pro-Am event last year in the Wayne county event (Team Mukwah-Pro Division). The experience was such a blast, I decided to team up with Stoutner (he fished am division last year in Sodus and Oswego) and put together an Am team this year to fish all four events and compete for the "cup" in the Am division.

If given the choice of ditching the Am or the open division, i'd rather get rid of the open division.

My situation:

I grew up fishing the fingerlakes with my dad and we fished the National Lake Trout Derby every Memorial Day Weekend on Seneca. To me, Derby fishing is mostly a "luck of the draw" because you are hoping for weight when that rod fires. It doesn't matter that you can have a 30 fish day if you don't have the weight. About 5 years ago I decided to give the big lake a try and was opened to a whole new world of fishing; when taking an evening trip and getting ready to pull rods because the sun had just disappeared on the horizon, that Watermelon NK28 took off screaming and I pulled my first King.

Tournament fishing with a scoring system like the classic Pro-Am point system seems to be a "thinking man's" game. I love reading the post-event posts to this thread and see guys re-cap their strategy throughout the conditions that the lake threw their way that day. Do you "box out" on browns? Pull rods and set up a big fish program? A top 5 position on day 1 didn't mean anything on day 2 unless you were consistant. And this is what entices me the most about the pro-ams...consistancy.

I'm dissapointed with the shift to the "trophy" box because it seems to be a move toward weight and away from consistancy. Adding the "cup" took that consistancy to the highest level. So the wind was taken out of my sails with the move away from the am division...a guy like me who is enticed by the competition level is left hauling my 3 heaviest "luck of the draw" fish in a cooler to weigh-in at 4 separate and unrelated events. I don't want to be "included"...I want to "compete"! So the alternative is to make the jump to the pro division...the problem here is boat-size. The invitations I've had to fish the pro divisions boats do not want to fish all 4 events because their boats are too big to trailer and gas is too much to run the lake. I can't really compete in a 21 ft cuddy because a 12-fish box kind of requires a 4-man team...plus an observer...a little tight in a 21 ft cuddy.

I read somewhere on here that the original intent of the am division was to groom guys for the pro division...if that's the case I think keeping the am division with the same scoring system and a slightly smaller box to accommadate a smaller crew/box is the way to go. I hope I'm not being a Debbie-downer here...just trying to communicate the perspective of the small/new guy.

-Jason

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Hang in there Jason, you are "one of us." Go back to the original post, very well written by Rod. They are trying to make positive changes. Lots of work continues securing sponsors and both the "open" and the regular division will be better than 100% payback--can't beat it. Lots of concessions have been made by alot of people, all for the betterment and future of the series.

It is the "consistency" of which you speak, that sets apart a 2 day event. The new "Trophy box" addition will only add to the "thinking" part of each event. No 2 events will be the same. Wait to see the strategy implemented this year, there will be surprises and it won't all be by the "old pro's". Good Luck whatever you decide, Jason.

[Fishtails]

Jason,

I admire your passion for the Pro Am series....it runs very deep with many of us, but probably to no one more than Vince. If I remember correctly, Vince has fished the Pro Am since it's conception.

Change can be hard to accept when we have such a deep passion for something. I totally understand your points, and they are very well made. For many of the reasons you stated, I fought to keep the Am division alive 3 years ago when the idea of dismantling it first arose. I listened to to committee's reasoning, and I understood (and still do understand) their situation.

I have stated before that even though I fished the Pro division 2 of 3 last year (I missed Sodus ) , I consider myself an Am. When I fish the Pro, I fish with my buddy Matt on Team Oh Baby, who was also an Am. We are weekend warriors who live 4 plus hours from the lake and get very little fishing time yearly except for the tournaments. It's daunting to go up against the likes of Capt. Vince and his Thrillseeker crew, and the many incredibly experienced teams in the Pro division.

The Am division was my safe harbor. I felt comfortable there, and so did a whole group of teams that I enjoyed fishing against 4 times a year. The Am division had a stay of execution and a chance to prove it was worth keeping, but instead of seeing growth, the Am division continued to loose participants. I believe a large part of that was the economy, and in all fairness I believe the Pro division saw a drop in participation over the same timeline as well. With projected record high gas prices this year, I am all but certain their would have been further decline in the Am participation in 2012.

As hard as it is for you, myself, and a group of 20 or so "regulars", I think the committee made the right choice in moving on and putting the Am division to rest. I have followed the "Am only tournament" thread, but I have not gotten involved. What I don't get is what's being considered is basically a similar event as the Am division of the Pro Am, and all these guys are saying "I'm in ...you can count on me", yet we had this exact structure for years and where were all these people then? Like Paul said, most of it is just talk !

IMO, many are undervaluing the option of the Open division, which I think the committee should now call the Am division if they want it to take off. My big bone of contention is the same as I have heard from other guys...The ending time. In the past, it was too short of a fishing day. While it's true, you can start at any time, I feel it's unsafe as most of these boats are small craft without radar. It's also not "family friendly", as I considered it once but my wife and daughter said no to my early start proposal. Give the open division a longer day and it's a good division for the Am guys....a really good division. For those that want the observer....go Pro. A lot of the Am teams should go pro anyway, but I think a few just like beating up on the rest

One way or another Jason, I hope to meet you on the tourney trail this season.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Happy Easter! Another very well written piece, Rod. I just want to add something to your reference to the "beginning".

It was 1985 when the Pro-Am came to Lake Ontario. I was in my 2nd year as a Captain, but my preference for targeting Kings was already well entrenched. Despite the format "staring us in the face", and the late June transition in full swing with dying bait and moss aplenty, we were flat out cocky enough to fish Kings , and Kings alone. The Pro limit was 20 back then, with no restrictions on Lakers. Well, you can see where this went. We finished 35th!!! out of 70 Pro's. Our best day we had 5 Kings and one weighed 32 1/2 lbs--in June! I have not seen one bigger in the Niagara Pro-Am since. You know what we got? Zero, zilch, NADA! There wasn't even a big fish prize-- wasn't what it was all about. All the winning catches were boxes of 20 huge lakers and incidental skipper Kings. What we did get was (besides our a%&es handed to us) was KNOWLEDGE. I will attribute my success in tournaments and chartering consistency to fishing these challenging, high strategy events,--all of them. It's our continuing ED. If you're taking peoples money to take them fishing, it's a great way to sharpen your pencil, AND build lifelong friendships with the competition we players thrive on.

Back in '85, the AMs were not like the AMs of today. We saw guys putting riggers on going out of the channel. Today, the average "AM" guy would DRUB the "Pros" of yesterday, yes it has blurred.

So, getting back to that first Tourny, had there been the 2 formats we would have cashed checks despite our narrow minded approach. Today, the everyday Pro's have one true disadvantage, we MUST produce fish for our clients day to day. Sometimes this can lead to proficiency in Tournaments, and other times it can hamstrung the best of them as "sharpshooters" experiment and find the winning answer.

Lastly, how do you determine a Pro from an Am today? If a guy is unlicensed , but works 10 days a year on a charterboat is he an AM? What if he works a hundred? What if he's unlicensed, but he's been part of 6 Tourny wins? What if he has been a part of a Pro team that has won? Where do you draw the line? The ocean Tournys just say "bring it on", compete at the level you see fit. The 2 formats, AND the expanded "open/am division offer lots of options.

[Gill-T]

Rod, I DON'T think the open division is misunderstood. This is not rocket science. You had an AM format that was the mirror image of the Pro division. A good measuring stick for the weekend warrior to compare themselves to the Pro teams. A level of prestige developed for the AM event because it was run with the same rules and required an observer. Any whiff of the ability to cheat in an event reduces the prestige of that event. To be able to start at any time and fish during the night, out of any port, with no observer........you are asking for trouble. If the Open division format was so great, why was there zero shift from the AM division into the Open division? I like the idea of offering the open format but not at the expense of the AM division. With all due respect Rod, if this was your baby, why did you push the change and then promptly depart to a bigger boat in the Pro division?

Given the state of the economy all tournaments have seen a downturn.......unless the format gives anglers the best chance, best value for their time and money (see also WHI with no open communication). I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the need to change the Pro format. Lets face it, a team with a large vessel that eats gas is not going to enjoy competing on day 2 after a poor day 1 leaves them with no chance to place in the money. I bet there were a ton of captains driving around on day 2 of the Orleans Co. event wondering "what the hell are we doing out here", when every fiber of competiveness in those captains would have loved to make the run to the bar or I-Bay to win something on day 2, many realized the futility and decided to stay close to port and save on the gas bill.

I think the LOU effect was also discounted. Think about the power this site has to reach out, educate and develop future teams (don't get a big head Chad). I know the tournament has been around a long time with diminished returns but there are comparatively less anglers fishing for salmon since the 80's. Population has moved south. Cost of gas. Lots of reasons. The AM division had probably 100% satisfaction with the format among contestants.........SO WHY CHANGE? Do you remember when Coke Cola decided to change it's formula?

Perhaps, the committee could reach out to other charter captains and find a way to make it easier to involve their clients' paid-for charter with tournament play to lessen the burden of missing a pay day? Or.........say close communication so Charter Captains will be more inclined to compete if they know the deck will not be stacked against them. Why would any Charter Captain knowingly give up a pay day with clients, pay entry fees, acrue a large gas bill if they know groups of teams are sharing intel. How daunting! Now you want AM teams to do the same? I know small boats can get into good boxes, but please don't tell me it is a level playing field. With a big transom, doubles and triples are no problem. An eight foot transom with a dog box......one good fish on and everything stops. Lines have to be pulled. Yelling insues. Some like the stress. Some of the older contestant regulars who compete as much for the good times and friendships as the thought of winning see the light and probably will not make the jump. Myself and others feel sad, like saying goodbye to a college friend that you know you will never see again.

[Fishtails]

Chad,

I don't really know how to respond to your post, so for the most part I wont because very little of it is even worthy of a response. I happen to disagree with you based on the opinions I have gathered and heard, but you are entitled to your opinion as well so I'll take the high road and leave it at that.

However, there are some things you need some enlightenment on.

With all due respect Rod, if this was your baby, why did you push the change and then promptly depart to a bigger boat in the Pro division?

I never under any circumstances, drunk or sober, have insinuated the open division was"my baby". I have never even spoken of the fact that I was at all involved with it's conception until now....and that was three years ago.! I merely pitched the idea in an effort to save the Am division back in 09, but I had little to do with the final product.

Furthermore...I never "pushed for change". Did you read my post? Where did that come from???? I also didn't "promptly part" the Am division once the open division was developed. I fished the Am all 4 events in 09 & 10 and once in 11. That is 9 events in the Am to only 2 in the Pro, so what exactly are you talking about ??

If the Open division format was so great, why was there zero shift from the AM division into the Open division?

Why would they....that was never the intent? The intent was to develop an easier less structured division to entice new teams to give the Pro Am a try, and then hope some of the open teams would move up to the "more prestigious" Am division. It was all an attempt to build the overall participation.

I don't like loosing the Am division any more than you or the next guy. I've been an Am regular for awhile now. I still remember you fishing your first Pro Am Chad...it was in Oswego...remember? I didn't know you, but I recall you missed the deadline so I offered to front the entry and get the money in for you because we were in the Oswego area. A few years later and it seems you got it all figured out and have all the answers.

I guess I just choose to accept and embrace the change instead of crying about it like a few have. It sucks to lose the Am division, but it would suck more if the Open division would go away too, leaving NO options for the little guy.

That's why I started this thread....just to point out that it's a very good option, and no one needs to feel as it there is no place for them in the Pro Am.

[Gill-T]

Rod, sorry for misinterpreting your involvement with the change.

I am the one who offered the open division as an alternative

I took litterally. I also know you and EVERYONE is trying to do the right thing. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING personal. The committee had a chance to sit around a round table or computer and debate the changes. Did anyone take THAT banter personal? LOU is our only outlet to discuss and hopefully shape the tournament future. I think it is remarkable that we even have a voice......but it was the commitee that opened the door of discussion last year on THIS forum. So I would not call it crying Rod. Rod, I have not forgotten how you and your wife helped to get me into my first event, and as a fellow competitor I have tried to do similar acts to get other teams involved.

Look the last thing we need is MORE tournaments springing up. So lets get it right! More tournaments means the talent pool gets dilluted as teams can't do them all and must choose. Think about the Masters golf tournament that just fininshed. Having four tournament venues where ALL the top teams and players are present makes for a more prestigous event. Nobody likes to be dismissed. When people feel dismissed they go off and start a new tournament.

[Fishtails]

No problem Chad. I only took the parts that were directed strait at me and untrue personal

There are going to be times in the future that I can't fish the Pro division for one reason or another. I just hope the committee changes the end time in the Open/Am so that I can fish it with my entire family....I would love to have my family fish a tournament with me one day. My son has fished many, but my wife and daughter have yet to share in this part of my life. It just needs to be a long enough day to make it worthwhile.

[Zebedee]

I know a lot of time goes into planning these events and I'm thankfull to/for the contributors.

I wouldn't voice my opinion if I didn't think it was considered and read.

Getting a bigger boat and putting a pro team together SHOULD be the outcome of fishing a few pro-ams. This was encouraged by the tiered approach. Open to Am to Pro.

I'm not intimidated by the bigger/more experienced boats run by charter captains who stay on top of the fish...I just don't have a boat big enough to hold 5 guys to compete with them! So the AM division that accomadated my boat size was perfect! It had the same structure and scoring system...how does the open division now groom a team toward the pro division? It doesn't. From my perspective, it is a token to "include" those who can't compete in the pro division. You may as well just have a pro division.

A 9 fish classic box/3 fish trophy box and a scoring system that mirrors the pro is the way to go for an am division.