Tournament format opinion

[brucehookedup]

I fished the sodus pro-am ( i am not sure where the am comes in) and in MY opinion there is to many places and small prizes to be won. Seems to me that there is alot more checks paid out in smaller amounts so you can feel like a weiner i mean winner. The entry fee is raised so this can happen. I will take the old format with a few modifications to make it feel like you have chance to really win something better. I am not going to get into what should be changed, but i am sure the committee will figure it out. I speak to quite a few people and they feel the same, but wont speak. Just my thoughts. Bring on the old style PRO-AM, thanks. P.S. why dont they say the amount that the team won when they get their winnings???

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Good points, Bruce. Probably because some of the checks were small and underwhelming. This mega-check payout was a heated topic amongst committee volunteers, it looked alot better with the "fantasy" of 70 teams.

Perhaps there would have been more teams had it all rolled out at last years end(when people need to plan vacation days) , as it turned out, it was way too late for such huge changes.

Alot of things went differently than I hoped, both format-wise and rule-wise. I will say this, much of it was to ease the transition of everyone playing in one division. There was definitely not an agenda to "take the little guys money"-just the opposite. Most of the committee members would have preferred a fatter payout up top, I coined the saying, "our peers are going to want TO WIN, when they win"--not just cover expenses. Ultimately, it was thought that to promote more participation, the prize money should be spread out. With that model of 70 teams, and the help of generous volunteers, it didn't look bad and even those of us with a "winner take all" mindset bought in. Of course, with half as many teams it didn't make sense to pay that many places-but a back up plan was never discussed so it went ahead the way it did.

Again, these mistakes were made with the participants best interests in mind, and with the hope that the more newbies that cashed checks the better.

Perhaps this just isn't the place(Salmon Tournaments) for "everyone gets a star on their forehead", just for playing. If you look at the events that are filling fields, they are "fat"in payouts at the top with observers and "no comm." The potential big prize allows teams to justify a long boat or trailering trip from out of county, state, or even country.

As for the dual format( 12 fish and 5 big fish), I actually think this worked to some degree as intended. Some new teams cashed checks in the 5 fish format, and teams that had great events cashed checks in both formats-thus lessening the "dilution" factor. In hindsight it is a better fit for a better participated Tourny, whereas even a 30 boat Tourny can be exciting when top-loaded.

I don't know what the answers are or what motivates different teams to "play", but one things for sure, we have the ultimate fishery for such events.

As stated earlier, planning for 2013 needs to start soon.

[A-TOM-MIK]

My team had fun fishing Oswego and Sodus, we won enough to cover expenses taking into consideration a so-so performance, we look forward to doing it again next year. The excitement of competing against your idols and those names "you've always heard about" is second to none for a few of us. This dimmed the light for my team so to say, for the deep down wish that the Pro/Am's will someday be once again what they once were. Through all my trials of the betrayed feelings to my 12 year dedication to fishing these events the one thing that has always stood out was the fact it has felt like a loss to lose the original Pro/Am format that brought together 90+ boats in Niagara and almost 80 in Oswego. Just to rank yourself amongst those top dogs doing everything the same way it has been done for years should always say something about its prestigiousness.

I have presently chosen to fish these events in any light and the goal to bury the hard feelings has felt great. Our fishery deserves our passion, and its potential is second to none. While idling in the dark Sat am at the head of the pack next to my long time hero "THRILLSEEKER" the goosebumps were lifted off every square inch of my body. I am sure many team captains and members can compare similar feelings while participating in these events, while blasting off or while weighing in.

Just to offer my vote on my "opinion" I feel the Pro/Am's would be given their best chance ever to make it into the future if they were to go back to what they were when they drew 78 teams in Oswego. No Communication, 2 divisions, observers etc.

I presume I will more than likely fish these events till my dying day, as they are my biggest off. The work behind the scenes is endless as I have learned first hand. It should always remain respected, I will offer my respect by continuing to play.

Tom

[Finders Keepers]

I agree with Vince - the new format was rolled out way too late for people to injest it, let alone plan for participating. Both the old and the new formats have their positives and their negatives. If more teams participate next year with the current format, I think these tournaments would be top notch - same opportunities to get in the money with higher payouts!

We are also in line with Tom - We will play with whatever the format is. We love the thrill and can't wait to hear the next screamin' drag!!

[Yankee Troller]

I'd like to see it go back to two days, 12 fish (two of which can be LT), No Comm, Pro AND Am divisions.

Enough with the excuses of why we cant police the No Comm rule. If the counties don't want to enforce it we will as tourney fisherman. Let s be honest here.....we all know how much a cheater will get black balled with the internet now a days. Would you want to take that chance?

I have no problems with the committee trying something new, but I think enough of us are speaking out about what we want to see, and what I just wrote is what most want to see.

Not to mention have you seen the spreadsheets Turner's wife and I created just to score this new format? They are monsters! No need for that!

I understand the work that goes into this, so I don't want to sound like I am ungrateful for the work a lot of people have put in. Thank you to all that help put these on!

Now lets give the people what they want!

[brucehookedup]

I am glad to see you guys replying. The one day winnings other than the largest fish should not be there. A two day total of your 'box' and your 5 largest for each day, 10 fish total would make things interesting and simplify the short checks. The no communication rulementioned by rick is fine, seeing if you are in some of the calcutta moneys you cant talk anyways. The idea is to go out, find fish, figure out a strategy, and make it happen. You can hear of all of the 'hotspots' at the weigh in. Overall i would like to see no checks on day one, all prizes on day two. Once again vince, how come we dont know the value of the checks that are handed out? I agree with you also tom, the zing is waned slightly, bring back the old Pro/Am.Thanks

[rolmops]

In 2007 the economy started tanking and along with it participation in the Pro-Am.On top of that,the gas prices went bananas. If money is tight people redirect it away from hobbies towards family needs,not sports events.

Last winter at least one participating boat (a Grady White)was sold for less then half its value because of financial hardship caused by the weak economy.

The Pro-Am organizers responded by hiking the entrance fees for the already financially hard hit amateurs and (as a consolation) by changing the way the prize money was divided.

How about we go back to the old format of 3 classes with reduced entrance fees for amateurs. This will increase the number of boats participating and because of that the prize money will increase accordingly.

With increased participation there will be a better opportunity for big time sponsors to advertize their product and although we may not get as famous as the Bass Master tournaments we will get more media coverage.

In a nut shell: 100 boats on the water in a tournament will attract media coverage. 27 boats (Oswego Pro-Am) hardly make a ripple in the water.

Respectfully,Rolmops.

[ray koziatek]

I (we) got in a Scotty once ,Ok my head got a little swelled up after doing "fair" in some pro/ams. Yes after day one my team forced me on stage with our 1- 13 lb salmon,as they hid in the bushes..definatly a humbling experiance. Now the behind the scenes was we lost 4 fish tangled everything once or twice and in the 3 to 5ft seas with a good side wind had a new thrown togeather team struggling for proper speed and unfamilur with my equipment had a few breakoffs so hey we mighta done ok..day two was worse conditions with 6 to 8ftrs and we were pretty shure we wernt gonna sweep the field so we tucked our tails and left early (for home) sunday..

Whats this got to do with the Pro/Ams..................I think it cost 500.00 to get in and the payout was 18.000.00 i think...pretty big whatever it was..drawing in teams from all over with paintjobs and more sponcers on the sides of them than a years wirth of GLA.magizine.

Big payouts draws big fields.

If ya wanna get into next years Pro/Ams get a team togeather now and fish togeather this year and start makin plans,,find out yer weak spots and compatability,and get familure with the boat and its equipment..

Good Teamwork produce Good Results..

Be prepared for all kinds of weather ,when yer fun fishing you wouldnt want to go out in 4 ftrs,but 4 ftrs in a derby are possable ,as ya cant control ma nature,, If ya done it before youll be ready,,mentaly and know what to run and what not to run

The Pro/Ams have always been open comm.for the derbys We have been in No one ever talked us to that honey hole in the lake But "stories"have been told at weighin that some had some cell phone guidence that put them in front of the field ..

Kinda tuff to lay out big bucks to get beat with a phone call.Plus it takes away the Pride of "WE Did It On Our Own !!! "

Ive never fished in" the old how it was derbys" But have heard many many times thats what folks want so i have "0" ability to commet other than that..

I did like the old Pro.,,,,,..Am.,,,,,.and Open setup.. Tho having 1 more "class""Open" adds a lot more work for current Folks running the derbys..

Maybe the open could be put togeather and run by each port ,as the rules are a little less strict.. Heck the boys at Sandy Creek tossed togeather a derby with over 40 boats in it and probly closer to 50...

Why Have the Open At All ???? Well ya gotta get yer feet wet in the Pro/Ams...,,, To have a common weighin the new guys will see how its done ,Meet some old pros (like vince) , did i mention OLD.

P.S. its easier to be a armchair referee so forgive me for adding a few more thoughts,but after i get my kids through collage (Daughter went back for doctorial) $16,000.00 new flute = (another new boat gone) and my son just starting 2nd year,Im scrappin bottom for another year or two But hope to Get back into it in sooner than later..

Thanks

Ray K.

[W.W.IV.]

Sorry Ray but the Pro Ams have not always been open com. I fished them in the 80s and 90s and there was no communicating. You were on your own and thats the way we liked it. .

[ray koziatek]

psst ..."the ones we have been in" shoot mike i wernt born yet

when you started fishing hey whats that old saying:

""see when ya look" ""Hear when ya listen""

[W.W.IV.]

I cought that later Ray, .

[Fishtails]

Still not sure I wanna touch this subject.....but I will give it 15 min. of my life and then my comments can be swept under the carpet and ignored as will most others It's a shame I feel that way, but I am not alone.

Anyhow, I fished only two Pro Am's this year, half of what I normally do. I fished once in the Pro, and once in the open. As always, I walked away pleased with the over all event in the way it was run. No tournament is perfect, but the Pro Ams are well run and organized and I enjoyed my experience.

I think the new format for the Pro went as it should have been expected. There was no way the majority of Am teams were going to be strong armed into joining the Pro division by disintegrating the Am division. A few tried the Pro out, but with very mixed results and opinions. I can tell you that whoever planned on having a 70 team field never spoke with the Am teams about how they felt with the way the changes went down and were handled.

I like the new Pro format in theory, but the payouts in relationship to entry fee and expenses are out of balance and under an open communication high entry two day format with observer, the participant numbers are not going to grow unless you can offer a mega payout. Even then, you still have a very limited pool in which to draw from. This will never be like a bass circuit, where you can offer up a big payout and draw boats from all over the country. We have a limited draw, and the more people that get soured and turn away from the Pro Am, the smaller the pool gets for the Pro Field.

As for the open, I actually liked it and with some needed changes I see it as the future of the Pro Am and deserving of some very serious talks within the committee. What I saw in the open is something I have not seen in years....new faces and teams!! In Sodus, there were about 20 teams each day in the open. Most were people I had never seen or met before. That may be the biggest positive to come out of this season. If you want new teams in the Pro, you need to bring them up through the farm system. Make them feel like they are part of the tourney....not a side show. Extend the fishing time a little later so it is worthwhile to pull the boat here from a good distance and have the weigh in flow over, or combine with the Pro's so the open participants get a taste of the Pro weigh in. Enough BS about how the open can start whenever they want....dawn is, when dawn is, and that is when most teams are going to start fishing in unfamiliar ports.

Also...make the open the Am....call it what it is. No charter captains, restrict the boat size to like 28 and under and keep it limited to the same port as the pros. Being able to fish from other ports will kill it in a couple years once guys start to realize the winners are coming from other ports where the fishing is much better.

I guess I will leave it at that for now....just some off the cuff thoughts. All in All, I am a big fan of the Pro Am series and I hope they can learn from last year and make it bigger and better for 2013

[troubles]

I've had an interesting year participating in all 4 Pro-ams this year. Observing in 3 and as a team member in Oswego.I think the Am teams can be persuaded to return if the rule structure for next year is improved.If the Open works I agree with Rod, make improvements and turn it into the Am portion of the Tournament.We all missed having these guys at the Tournaments this year.I probably would have fished Sodus if the Am was still around.

I also have heard remarks from several of the "Top"pro teams that if the prize structure isn't increased that they won't be fishing them in 2013.Ok reality time- East end tournaments need to be closed communications in order to grow and get back many of the players.If this doesn't happen entries may fall off even further.

Changes were tried this year but obviously were all still talking about a way to grow the pro-ams.I realize a lot of people work hard to make them happen and it's highly appreciated.If majority of teams can do Non-Comm calcutta's then it seems that east end closed Comm tournaments should be possible.

[Yankee Troller]

If majority of teams can do Non-Comm calcutta's then it seems that east end closed Comm tournaments should be possible.

I would never again participate in a No-Comm calcutta. If the No Comm isn't in the rules I'm not handicapping my team. I say enough is enough with the people who give excuses why we can't have no communication. This is OUR tournament! Not the Counties.

[brucehookedup]

That what it all comes down to rick, OUR tournament. Dump the counties, set up the rules as they were, and giddy up.

[Gill-T]

A major draw of the Pro/Am series in the past has been the prestige of the events. These are like the golfing worlds' equivalent of a "major". I think the committee's intent on spreading the payouts had good intentions, but the undesired effect is it lessens the accomplishment of winning (no offense to winners this year). To put together two days of 9 and 12 fish boxes in all kinds of weather conditions is the test that makes these events interesting. I think the number of teams that competed in the events speaks to what the AM's think about the changes. Before teams lose that competitive desire and are lost forever, please consider going back to the old format. Nobody blames the committee for trying something new for the benefit of growing the tournament..........it just didn't work. Hopefully, some pride can get swallowed and the old format can be brought back......with no communication.

[brucehookedup]

I agree with gill-t as well. You tried, it did not work as well as planned, no biggie it happens everyday in this world. Forget the 'open', short box, long box, classic box. The old pro/am format was the best, with no communication. Dont forget the big fish for each day no matter pro or am.

[Shade]

I was at the meeting at the LOTSA event when the new format was unvailed. The committee was some of the most knowledgable and respected fishermen this lake has to offer. I am confident that their intentions and hard work was to better the Pro/Am and I believe they will continuein their efforts.

All I can add is listen to what the fishermen want not the counties. Take a pole and let the majority rule. Comm is a big issue, going back to the old format is another. Ask the teams what they want. I know there will be some far out suggestions but let EVERYONE have a say. One good thing was having some of the Observers attend a class and they where used during the pro/am. I would like to see this be all the Observers go through the pro/am and assigned, through a lottery, and assigned to a team.

My teams wish list:

1) NO COMM

2) Keep AM division entry at $300 + add cost off Observer

3) Eliminate GPS coordinates, Go Lake wide

4) Allow more time between events so some of us can enter more events. Back to Back is expensive for some as well as getting time off from work and then theres the wiffy issues. When ya fish your home port in most cases the cost of docks, accommadations and food are not in play.

Just our wish list....

Have a great day

Shade..Team Hannah Christine

PS: what was the additional $40 for and how did it benifit the new format. I must say the final results postings format was a little disapointing and the posting for the OPEN..are ya kidding me

[Tim Bromund]

Howie, if I may make a few comments regarding a couple of your points:

Point 3 is unworkable as it would add mountains of complications to the people/volunteers running the events to ensure that everyone on any team that may have crossed the line had all of the appropriate licenses (NY and Canadian) and how would they determine that everyone was fishing legally without the coordinates. If you want to take on the headache of enforcing that, knock yourself out. By limiting it to NY waters as verified by GPS coordinates, that all goes away.

Point 4 and the timing of the events, those dates are set primarily based on the availability of dockage/slips at the ports in question. I don't know what the situation is in July on the east end, but at Niagara and Orleans, if they spread those later into the season there wouldn't be enough open slips available in the affected ports as more and more seasonal dock holders put in for the year, particularly with the rag boats and strictly pleasure boats. I assume the availability of transient dockage in Oswego and Sodus must be sufficient in July to accommodate the number of entries.

Tim

[Shade]

Tim,

The Wilson Invitational is an open lake event. No GPS coordinates and you can fish Canadian waters. If someone goes into the waters without a liscense shame on them if they get caught. It works in Wilson it can work the pero/am as well. as far as establishing other dates, all I ask is try and see or like you said it is unworkable then it can not be done./ No harm no foul. This is a wish list not a ultimatum. Everything may stay the same, but for most of us to compete it needs change.

If they only go non comm and old format you will see a lot more participants.

Howie

[crumcake1223]

this is the first year that i have been apart of the pro/am's / open, and 1 of my team members did one a few years back but as a mate and really just fished. i have been watching this thread since it started trying to learn all that i can as to be better prepared and im not really sure what's going on about the com thing. we( our team) have the radio in the boat but never use it unless its to bust on our brothers (in real life) other than that is just there. i thought the hole point of the pro am was to take your team/boat and work your program. why the heck do i want to tell anyone where i am and what im doing when there's money out on the line. i have never put any faith into what people are saying on there because lets face it if your fishing your lying. not to mention that my 9 year old can sit in my boat in marion wile its in the barn and hear many people out on the lake. heck on a good day i can hear ruff rider out at sodus point from the barn. my point being if your looking for help from others wile your taking your test( fishing in the pro/am) then you didn't do your homework. that's probley the biggest reason why we didn't do a pro/am not only because of the $$$$ that it took to get in but we really haven't fished the east end to the fullest YET and do not fished the west end unless someone gets a wild hair up the back side and we make a weekend out of it . we are a young team with high hopes and know their is a lot to learn and i hope as i look at this more i will be able to make a better decision about com's.

im not trying to be a pain in someone's side but PLZ educate me on the subject. where are the pro's and con's i don't want to make a decision unless i feel im well informed thank you all for your time

-crummer

[Shade]

The open communication allows participants to use cell phones, computors and Ipads to communicate to their friends (that have not entered) or other participants on where, how and lure set ups that is working. The comm can be pro conversing with amature teams and ams teams comm with pro teams.

Shade

[crumcake1223]

thanks shade thats what i was thinking was going on. so agin what happened to "YOUR TEAM" going out and out fishing everyone else... must be a big team. lol i guess

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Amen, crumcake. Not only does "no comm" prevent the results from being skewed, it is a better "team" sport when done as intended. Much more rewarding and prestigious.

[ray koziatek]

I understood the main reason Back to back are the big boys who have charters and more important at 2 gal per mile and cost of runnin the lake from east to west would make it very expensive..

as of now my pro/am days are done,except maybe the open...so i would hate to see that go...but as someoneelse said let the hometown benifit from all the open boats leavin the same port..plus thats one of the coolest parts "everyone in that class pullin out at the same time"and their need to be a set start time for open and maybe a little longer fishing time 5 to 1pm..heck with a 2nd scale let em fish till 2...

I know the open must be some extra load for the folks puttin these on,but im shure each Home port must have a way to support this part of the pro/ams,,,,with a little guidence from 1 experienced staff...shoot my hand would be up if i lived closer it would be nice to see everyone and be part of this event the guys that did sandy creek fished and did the weighin too !!!

But as ive said its pretty easy to be a armchair coach...so i hope it all works out ,,,,,,,,,,,maybe after november we all might be a lot better off.