Follow-Up to Rochester Capt. Meeting

[Finders Keepers]

If any of the charter captains would like to be a part of the network of captains reporting waterspouts to the Wayne County Storm Trackers group (and relayed to the International Centre for Waterspout Research and national Weatehr Service), please drop me a PM and I will forward to you the contact information for our director Jack Matthys.

Here is a link for the Wayne County Storm Trackers:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Storm- ... 8011776436

and for the International Centre for Waterspout Research:

http://www.icwr.ca/

With your help of verifying and reporting the occurrence of waterspouts, they will be able to refine and develop their model to better forecast and predict waterspout formation, and ultimately making it safer for everyone with boating interests on the lake.

[momay4000]

Question - why would this only be applicable to "charter captains" and not anyone fishing the lake?

Thanks for helping me understand this,

- Chris

[Finders Keepers]

Hey Chris,

Great question! We'd love to open it up to everyone, however just like for mid-west tornadoes, we have to make ensure the reports are legit and from a reliable source. Not to say some of the general fishing population wouldn't be making legit reports, but when opened up to everyone the number of false reports sky-rockets. It was also specifically stated by both the NWS and the research group that the reports need to come from reliable sources. In this case that would be meteorological personnel and charter captains.

[GAMBLER]

Hey Chris,

Great question! We'd love to open it up to everyone, however just like for mid-west tornadoes, we have to make ensure the reports are legit and from a reliable source. Not to say some of the general fishing population wouldn't be making legit reports, but when opened up to everyone the number of false reports sky-rockets. It was also specifically stated by both the NWS and the research group that the reports need to come from reliable sources. In this case that would be meteorological personnel and charter captains.

Wow. I would think the more eyes the better. I guess you must learn what a water spout looks like in captains school.

[LongLine]

Chris - Maybe you, me & a bunch of other guys aren't "reliable." Don't you love how the weathermen can mess things up?

Guess they don't realize that most fishermen especially rec's carry cameras and most operate with active GPS. All we'd have to do is take a pix of the spout with part of the boat in the pix, take a pix of the shore, report coordinates & send them in so they could confirm on their radar/dopler. (Then get the he[[ out of there)

Fishermen have been telling the weather just by the hats they wear a lot longer than weathermen have been around. When water drips off the brim - you know it's raining; when it blows off your head - you know it's windy; when icicles form on it - it's freeking cold!

But hey...we're not reliable.....

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[FX]

Maybe if someone of credibilty put on a waterspout seminar, "unreliable" rec guys could get certified and become "reliable".

Shawn

[momay4000]

Tom and Brian - thanks for the support here and I agree with both of you. I think my 8 year old daughter could probably identify a waterspout, but before she tells me about it, I think I'm going to have to get her a captain's license so that she would be "legit and reliable".

I would argue there's many more recreational fishermen/women on the lake at any given time then charters.

I guess I'll have to cross off "member of the waterspout reporting network" on my resume since I don't have the proper credentials.

Thanks,

- Chris

[Silver Fox]

Fk, how can you spearhead a project that you yourself shouldn't be taking part in because your not a captain right? Isn't that like Obama having no presidential credentials and doing it anyways?

[ Post made via Android ]

[lakebound88]

Fk, how can you spearhead a project that you yourself shouldn't be taking part in? Isn't that like Obama having no presidential credentials and doing it anyways?

[ Post made via Android ]

Great idea for researchers but poor choice of words for reliable resources... Right on Scott...

[ Post made via Android ]

[UpGrady]

LMAO.... This is beautiful... Guess they were getting very desperate at the office in Buffalo to try to get some REAL information about the lake...

[salmonite]

Maybe if someone of credibilty put on a waterspout seminar, "unreliable" rec guys could get certified and become "reliable".

Shawn

[Finders Keepers]

Fk, how can you spearhead a project that you yourself shouldn't be taking part in because your not a captain right? Isn't that like Obama having no presidential credentials and doing it anyways?

[ Post made via Android ]

I have two degrees in meteorology/atmospheric sciences and over 10 years of prefessional storm chasing experience, so yes, I do have the meteorological credentials. Listen fellas, this did not come from me - I'm the middleman tying the two entities together: fishermen and meteorologists. I agree that there are many anglers without a capt license that could give "reliable" reports. I can suggest they open it up to everyone, but I can't guarantee they will accept it. Like I mentioned, the public reports 1,000's of false tornado reports. I can understand the research facility not wanting to have to sort through false reports. At the same time I also agree, the more eyes on the water the better. I can also tell you, the research facility I'm sure has to state to their funding agencies where they are acquiring their data/reports/etc. from and to have it stating the reports are from licensed charter captains, rather than simply anglers, looks better (politics at play). I'm in no way saying that is better.

I don't know the politics and inner workings of the NWS or the research facility. What I do know is that the Wayne County Storm Trackers have the ability to report waterspouts to both of these agencies, who can then monitor the situation and issue marine statements if warranted. What I can do is run the idea of allowing all reports (captains and recs) to go to our director, who can then check the validity of the report and then pass the report on if valid or (in the terms of the agencies) "reliable". This is assuming he is willing and able to check said reports. (I'm currently awaiting his call)

As far as a seminar goes, I don't think that is necessary unless people want to learn about how they are created, what are the storm and cloud development features to look for, and what weather patterns favor their development. I would pose the following question to those who think they know waterspouts already: in a thunderstorm situation can you tell the difference between low level clouds associated with a gustfront and a waterspout? Or when a lake effect shower is developing can you tell the difference between a small rain/grauple shaft and a waterspout, especially if it is 10-15 miles away from you? If so, great!! But most people can't and those are where the false reports come into play - it's not the cut and dry situations where there is no precipitation and the only thing between the clouds and the water is a thin rope with spray on the water surface.

Plus, please keep in mind guys, this research agency just started up doing something that has never been done before, so I can understand why they might want to start with a small reporting group. And regardless of who makes the reports, the end result is to help make the waterways safer for us! Lake O is finally getting some much needed attention which may lead to additional research efforts coming this way - don't knock it! You guys want better surface temperature maps updated several times a day? That will only happen through research projects - we all know the government isn't going to spend monies on that sort of thing!! Be supportive of these efforts being put forth and offer suggestions for improvement - it's only going to help all of us in the future...

[momay4000]

With all due respect, I think you are missing the point: I am concerned with your suggestion to include only charter captains and meteorological personnel because they are "reliable". By this logic, you imply all other fishermen/women would be "non-reliable".

BTW, I am by no means knocking charter captains whatsoever, but I would like to know how they have more reliability recognizing a waterspout from a down spout? Do they have special training, do they have special testing in this arena, etc? If so, I'd like to learn so that myself and my team can be safer on the water.

Disclaimer - I cannot tell the difference between a gustfront and a homefront or a graupleshaft and a craftshaft, but I'm pretty certain I can tell it's raining when it's cloudy and the top of my head is wet......nyuck, nyuck, nyuck....

[LongLine]

From Merriam-Webster: reliable – “able to be trusted to do what is expected or has been promisedâ€â€¦.From same: “Synonyms for reliable: Good, dependable, responsible, safe, secure, steadyâ€

I was told that Captain’s training used to mention a little bit about safety & well-being of clients & vessel. I know basic boating courses talk “a little bit†about it. Most charter sites talk about a little about client comfort & safety. Some even brag about weather radios, radar & other gear.

So I guess my question is what “Good, dependable, responsible, safe, secure, steady†charter captain would ever voluntarily chase waterspouts with a boat load of clients? Please let me know as I'd never hire a guy that takes chances like that. Judging from the pictures on the ICWR gallery of waterspouts (those just forming)…IMO, anyone on the water with the skies shown is pretty desperate for fish and certainly not thinking safety.

ICWR wants actual sightings not that conditions are right for it. They already monitor the conditions and are looking for confirmation that they occur.

BTW - I don’t see anything on the ICWR sighting submission form even identifying the source (or his credentials) of the sighting

http://www.icwr.ca/waterspout-report-su ... n-form.php

nor is there any mention of credentials on form to become a member of the ICWR.

I once had a Physics professor tell me “a meteorologist is a guy with both feet firmly planted in the air.†Perhaps he was right? May he RIP.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Finders Keepers]

With all due respect, I think you are missing the point: I am concerned with your suggestion to include only charter captains and meteorological personnel because they are "reliable". By this logic, you imply all other fishermen/women would be "non-reliable".

Once again, I did not make the request for only charter captains!! And by no means am I saying they are more or less qualified than anyone else!

"So I guess my question is what “Good, dependable, responsible, safe, secure, steady†charter captain would ever voluntarily chase waterspouts with a boat load of clients?"

Who ever said anything about chasing waterspouts??!!?? I've entertained the idea, but then again I have a couple screws loose for chasing tornadoes! And no, chasing waterspouts is not a good idea - the water (waves, wind, etc.) is too unpredictable and limits movement too much to consider it. The whole idea is that if a charter captain (those who are out on the water quite often compared to most (not all) rec fishermen, keeping all certifications, credentials, honors, etc. out of the picture) happens to be out and sees a waterspout, they could report it to us. Nothing more, nothing less. And if you knew anything about waterspouts you'd know that they can occur under any towering cumulus cloud - meaning on a perfectly beautiful day with light winds, under the right conditions, one can form. As was the case a couple weeks back when we were fishing off of nine mile: a very small line of lake effect cumulus clouds had formed over the middle of the lake with the rest of the sky perfectly clear. Under one of the towers a waterspout formed and lasted for about 5 minutes (I would guess it was about 15 miles offshore, as we were 6 miles offshore and it appeared those clouds were about another 10 miles away). The ICWR model had a low probability of waterspouts that day and didn't expect any to form. So now they are going to look closely at the weather conditions that day and try to adjust their model to account for those conditions. That's what maked these so hazardous to anyone venturing out on the lake (especially in the months of August through October) and hard to predict!

Bottom line - THIS IS A GOOD THING FOR THE LAKE AND ALL THE ANGLERS! Stop knocking down good ideas just because it doesn't include everyone! Every good idea has to start somewhere and almost always starts on a small scale...

[Finders Keepers]

BTW - I don’t see anything on the ICWR sighting submission form even identifying the source (or his credentials) of the sighting

http://www.icwr.ca/waterspout-report-su ... n-form.php

nor is there any mention of credentials on form to become a member of the ICWR.

quote]

Great!! Maybe they are opening up their window for submissions! My group met last month, so maybe things have changed. However, I know my report was checked before they issued the marine statement when it was called in to Buffalo a few weeks back...

[Missdemeanor]

Thank you Bob Fuller for attending our meeting.....It was nice to learn the basics on how you make your spoons.. I'm sure I can speak for the rest of the members when I say I look forward to having you back in the spring to see whats new and exciting from Finger lakes Tackle company........

[panfisher]

Finders Keepers....Good show old bean (to be said in a British accent)! I'm in! Except I'm not a charter captain. I've been a passionate fisherman AND a passionate weather observer since a young kid. Also enjoy all kinds of other earth sciences. Would love nothing more than to be able to contribute reputable observations to others who want to learn more about stuff, so we can ALL benefit one way or another. The more U know about anythings, the better U can deal with them. Also understand about the process of scientific method. And about how research projects must, mostly because of monies and the efficiency needed to work within hard-to-obtain cash and timeframes, must get information with some amount of stability. I have never seen a waterspout or tornado, but a few of my fishing friends have. Folks just want to contribute and be included. Perhaps that is what you've tapped into. But, folks who are taking the idea of charter caps, only, being used for monitoring input as being a negative must try to see why that idea is being floated. Ever hear of "too many cooks in the kitchen"? Again, it is under duress of money and time and results that new research ventures must operate even more efficiently and completely than they might ideally wish...BTW -Thanx for the WCST and ICWR links. They may be willing (if able) to find a way to include input from others in their research. There is something to be said about the benefit of more eyes on the scene, but they would have to be accurate eyes, perhaps as forward "first eyes" who could relay sightings to a captain who could verify if in the area.....with the electronic communications available to all today (cell phones, etc.) this might be efficiently done.

[Finders Keepers]

Thanks Panfisher! Your points are right on the money! I spoke with our director, who stated that if everyone was reporting to us it would be way too overwhelming for us to handle, especially since we have jobs during the day to boot. After things get going maybe it can be expanded to include more participants, but right now that's just not possible.

[Silver Fox]

Yes Bob, thanks for coming. I'm usually at the meeting, but I'm a fantasy football nerd and had a draft last night. I would of liked to meet you in person. You make a great looking and durable spoon. You are welcome anytime!

[ Post made via Android ]

[Bfuller]

I had a great time last night. I sorta felt as if I broke through a bit with some of the guys. I think some are concerned with the way the fine detailing on my spoons feel. It is deff different, but BULLET PROOF! It's going to be a tough ride this winter, all of you lake fisherman are the ones making this business happen. I am doing this to make a living, but at the same time I fish 200+ days /year, so I can relate to what it feels to spend $7 on something, and it falls apart. It feels great to make a product at a fisherman's demand. Tackle made for fisherman, by fisherman!

Plain and simple, mark my words... What you guys want, you will get. Better product at competetive prices, you'll get that. A lure you can catch 100+ fish on, and it'll keep working, you'll get that. Need a custom color that nobody else has, and don't want them getting it, you'll get that. You name it, YOU GOT IT!!

[Finders Keepers]

It was brought to my attention that Bob's time was cut short at the meeting apparently due to the length of our presentation (even though it was mostly in response to inquiring questions from the captains). So I would like to appolagize to Bob, as you did have a much longer drive than us. If we were allocated only a specific amount of time, I wish the discussion and questioning had been cut shorter to allow you more time for your presentation, as your spoons do look great!

[Blind Squirrel]

Since when did fishermen become reliable sources? You know the old saying "all fishermen are liars" You should have seen the size of this waterspout it was this big,honest! or the one that got away, I had the waterspout right up to the side of the boat and it got away!

[Finders Keepers]

Since when did fishermen become reliable sources? You know the old saying "all fishermen are liars" You should have seen the size of this waterspout it was this big,honest! or the one that got away, I had the waterspout right up to the side of the boat and it got away!

Good point!