2012 Orleans County Pro-Am Facts

[Paul Czarnecki]

One final comment. The fact the entries were down for 2012 cannot be explained away simply by saying it was the rules change. I'm sure that gas prices, job security and many other factors influnced the entries.

I will have to disagree with that statement. 2009 saw one of the worst economic downturns in American history,rivaling the financial collapse of the great depression. Yet the 2009 Orleans Pro/Am saw 57 boats compete. In 2010 again with the economy still struggling the tournament was able to draw 62 different teams combined Pro/AM/Open. That sounds pretty consistent to me. As I stated before the 2011 numbers were again in line with prior years. So, the last 3 years participation remained a model of consistency, to state that rules changes and entry fee structure were not the driving factor on participation is short sighted in my opinion. Are you trying to say the economy is worse now than it was in 2009,2010 or 2011? Statistic's say it is not. How about this, call some of the former teams that competed in the prior years and ask them why they did not compete in 2012. I would think that would make it crystal clear. I know the tournament organizers have a thankless job at times, plus they have incentive to see the changes they have made work. So defending those changes when they have appeared to not work can be a tough pill to swallow. No set of rules and entry fee structure is going make everyone happy. But taking into account the feelings of the particpants themselves is what is going to make the tournaments viable well into the future. Because, no matter if it is an economic upturn or downturn as you can plainly see by past results, if you always keep the teams participants in the forefront you will have a tournament series that will always draw. I think tournament organizers may have forgot that ,just like any business,the teams that participate are their customer's. So, how have you treated your customer's lately?

Fishfighter.....what is your name and why the HELL aren't you on the Tournament Committee??????

[Landshark]

A lot.of.good points on here. The pro ams use to be a must do. I think there is a lot of room for improvement

It would be sad to see these dwindle and fade. My only point was that worrying about a scoreboard equal to the pros is a minor problem. Fix the format to suit the fiahermen. Take it to a vote on LOU

[ Post made via Android ]

[Gator]

I agree with Landshark. It seems like there's lots of issues to fix beyond the scoreboard. Although I've got to admit, the computer/projector/white sheet combo at the Shootout was pretty slick, and relatively easy to set up, to boot.

A good friend of mine once told me, "Don't sweat the petty stuff...pet the sweaty stuff". 'Nuff said.

[ray koziatek]

For some added info the northeast was the least impacted by the housing bubble burst,and recession, at first...But with the constant downturn for the last 3 years,and as we know the price of fuel impacts more than just at the pumps..(price of shipping )....toss in 1000.00 entry (fee,observer,some fuel) plus dockage and rooms now ya got 1500.00 plus.so price was a BIG factor for myself..Then throw me in with full time charters with the PRO knowlage im done before i start....We had some great times and I thank all for that, who were involved.. The my way or highway doesnt seem to have helped the Pro/Ams any more than its been helping the economy..

[rolmops]

2012 Orleans county facts,

I did a little research on the Orleans Pro/Am from 2011 & 2012 Team Tournament(don't say Pro/Am cause that bird has flown the coop). Here are some facts I noticed. As you can see by the payouts listed more teams made more money than ever before. Way higher entry fees and less competitors will do that for you. One of the points of the series was to grow the tournaments. That has not happened by a long shot. Here are some other facts about the Orleans Team Tournament compared to the 2011 results.The numbers are pulled from the Team Tournament website. For the Open division I counted the number of different teams entered,so if you entered both days your team was counted as 1.

2011 Orleans

Am Teams-16

Pro Teams-40

Open- 8

Total- 64 teams

2012 Orleans

Am teams-0

Pro- 32

Open- 11

Total-43 teams

A drop in participation of 33%.

Using the above calculations you can plainly see the level of participants has dropped significantly. Is this what was envisioned when the new format was put together. The same formula can be used for the Niagara and Oswego tournaments with similar results (Niagara 21% drop) Oswego(25% drop). All you keep hearing is "X" amount of teams received a check. It's even hard to tell who won what. Ask anybody that followed or participated in the old Pro/Ams if they remember who won in years past. I am sure a majority would be able to name teams both Pro and Am from years gone by. Try that now,you can look at the score sheets and still not know. There used to be such a sense of pride and accomplishment when competing and doing well in the old series. That has completely vanished and now as you can see by whats being posted,its all about the money. Now it's everybody wins and look at all the checks we paid out. Maybe sometimes keeping things the same could be a better option. All I know is in any business or work situation, a 33% drop in sales,production,marketshare, ect is not sustainable. The question I have is, are the Salmon Team Tournaments sustainable if the levels listed above are now the norm? I guess time and the organizers of the tournaments will have the final say. The sponsors of the Tournaments have a vested interest, they want exposure and to drive sales of the products and services they offer. Less teams equal less exposure which in turn equals less sales. Why would they continue their support when advertising and promotional dollars could be spent much more effectively elsewhere.?That's some simple math everyone can understand. I believe the tournamnets are at a "fork" in the road,which way are they gonna turn. Stayed tuned!

I fully agree.

Some teams that participated in Oswego have already said that they will not be back next year.

[motoman]

For some added info the northeast was the least impacted by the housing bubble burst,and recession, at first...But with the constant downturn for the last 3 years,and as we know the price of fuel impacts more than just at the pumps..(price of shipping )....toss in 1000.00 entry (fee,observer,some fuel) plus dockage and rooms now ya got 1500.00 plus.so price was a BIG factor for myself..Then throw me in with full time charters with the PRO knowlage im done before i start....We had some great times and I thank all for that, who were involved.. The my way or highway doesnt seem to have helped the Pro/Ams any more than its been helping the economy..

true true true

[Devonian]

First of all, thanks to the efforts of all who have kept the tourney going all these years, it’s quite a thankless job. But seeing as how you’ve asked…here are a couple thoughts I’ve had.

1) With over $30,000 on Prize Money to distribute, you could have really put the Orleans County area on the map with a $20K or $25K guaranteed first place prize last year. Then spread the remaining money over the next four or even 9 teams. Teams seems to be attracted to the potential big payout as is exhibited by the tourneys that are either growing or “at-capacity“ around the lake (Wilson Invitational and Tight lines are prime examples).

2) The open division is a great concept and allows people from all different skill levels to participate, it seems that there are some good points regarding how the prizes are distributed and the scoreboard is displayed that could be acted on without a whole lot of effort. Perhaps an Open Division coordinator of some sort could solely be responsible for the Open division, so it isn’t treated as an afterthought, but a separate, distinct contest.

3) The Classic & Trophy division 1 - Day, 2-Day and Overall concept waters down the event. If you want to be a 1 day contest, be one. Want to be a 5 fish contest? Be one. Want to be the type of event that got most folks’ adrenaline pumping in years past? Be a two-day single division tourney. If you want to make it awesome again make it no communication. Having 60 checks for 33 entrants is just crazy. Paying out 63% of the field? ? Not to compare what we do to the Olympics, BUT if 63% of Olympians won medals there would have been over 6,500 medals given out last summer, no one would care and the medals would be meaningless. Let’s please go back to the days when there is a clear winner of the contest rather than 63% of entrants being “winners.â€

The successful tourneys have a large grand prize, period.

4) You could potentially LOWER the entry fee, (and possibly attract more participation) if you adopted a steeper payout of the prize structure. Make it very top heavy, no one enters these things to get second place anyway…after that it’s really only about bragging rights.

5) Whatever is decided should be communicated as quickly as possible so teams can make plans.

6) If these decisions continue to be made without the particpants’ (customers) wants considered, there will be an awful lot of room in the weight station line next year. LOOK AT THE TOURNEYS THAT HAVE FLOURISHED IN THE BAD ECONOMY, see what they have in common and adopt (or re-adopt) the rules which made the contests successful.

7) Why are they still called Pro-Ams?

Again, only giving the feedback because you asked thanks again for all the efforts in the past, hopefully these contests will start growing again.

[fishfighter]

The prize structure always had me scratching my head. The emphasis was put on the fact more people will participate if everyone gets a check. The tourney fees was also a thinker. Due to the fact participation declined at the Orleans event so significantly this year the Tournament actually collected less entry fee money than they would have under the old format.Here is an example(open division excluded):

2011

16 Am teams x $265.00=$5840.00

40 pro teams x $500.00= $20,000

Total 2011- $25,840

2012

Team Participants-32 x $650.00=$20,800.00

So,by raising the fee structure, less prize money was paid out than what could have been paid under the old format. Meaning ,if $20,800 was collected in fees ,sponsor money made up the difference to get to the $30,000 payout. Would the sponsor money have not been the same if the old format was in place? I think it would have. Just some food for thought.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Good stuff guys. Devonian, the Olympic medals ratio was LOL!!!! Just to add, With the "big carrot at the top", you draw that many more from several states and provinces--then you have the purse to pay down.

It has been clearly communicated loud and clear, and again powerfully with participation or lack of, that the players want to "WIN WHEN THEY WIN."

[machzrcr]

I also have to thank everyone involved with the tournaments.

Why are the east end tournaments being questioned about continuing?

And i believe that the win big is definitely a good idea to have again.

my thoughts were to keep the large and small box's but make it only an overall payout, and pay top 8 for a 2 day total.

with a 30k purse and having a $600 entry with 40 boats would be 24,000 and the rest sponsor money as available

a prize structure as such wouldnt be bad.

2 day totals for each

long box short box

20,000 10,000

paid out paid out

1- 10,000 1 -5,000

2- 3,000 2 -1,500

3 -1,700 3 -1,000

4 -1,400 4 -700

5 -1,200 5 -550

6 -1,000 6 -500

7 -900 7 -450

8 -800 8 -300

showing the prize money at the tournament or before hand i think would definitely be nice to know.

- No Communication

the open division should remain pretty similar to how it is because i don't know how many people fish both days compared to just one and having a total 2 day payout would turn off possible entrants.

[A-TOM-MIK]

Tom, you have proven you can run a tournament......any chance you could follow Kevin Jerge's lead with the KOTL and run the eastern events the way the majority want?

At this point would have to say no, Several reasons currently: I have more than offered my opinions in the past and "the right people" never seemed to believe the simple fact that the amount of teams were drastically falling since the unification of rules or due to the fact there was even a majority that felt opposed to the existing rules at that time. Even at that last meeting I referred to, there were mentions of added teams dropping out in the future if something wasn't done, (this coming from east and west end events) after that statement (a statement that came true in hindsight in round 1) there was still an "attempted misleading" of how a majority of players/customers felt.

Also not so sure the time needed to over come the past would justify the new time expenditure needed in the present. Could I satisfy the future commitment from those willing to give it a chance again? Also not so sure, I have a hard enough time now justifying those who choose to follow my name with what I have going on now, only so much one can do (who has a drive to also be a player and enjoy 150+ days on the water a year) Call me selffish I guess, but even at that I would certainly always offer my input and I assure it would satisfy a majority if I put my name on it.

With that said and with that feeling looming just would not want to be at the head of it. I do however feel if these 2 events were offered to the people under new direction and in the appropriate light, they could once again flourish. I may be willing to help, just not head it with that info in the back ground

Why are the east end tournaments being questioned about continuing?

Couple reasons, 1 of which can not be offered up yet, but the other is it has been noted by someone of importance (no names mentioned) that once the "Oswego Counties" were aware of the poor showing of entrants in 2012, that they would not be willing to support these events any longer.

Tom

[muskybob]

Just wondering about these events and curious as to how much each County contributes financially and if their participation is really necessary for the ProAMs to continue as they were. It would be nice to see a ProAm series put together BY fishermen & FOR fishermen without politics involved. JMHO

[stoutner]

the open division should remain pretty similar to how it is because i don't know how many people fish both days compared to just one and having a total 2 day payout would turn off possible entrants.

I'm not 100% sure I agree. My team would have won the "overall" in Oswego but there was no "overall". Maybe a plaque of some kind would have made us happy? As many of you say it is also about bragging rights As a newcomer to the tournament it would have been nice to have been recognized for winning the overall. Me and my team mates were really proud of winning the overall even though it didn't exist. We really worked hard at it and were a little disappointed to find out that there was no overall.

In the end, we were pretty happy with the events and will fish them again even if there is no overall. We had a great time.