Ok time to sit around the campfire.

[ray koziatek]

Hmm ,whos first?

DOES= here are some observations and info ive picked up over the years.

Largest does breed first are are as rare to see as a mature buck...

^^^^^^ tend to find the big bucks and get the job done without resisting and in a secluded place...then they lay close as to not attract younger bucks till the (heat smells) go away.

^^^^^^ In harsh winter conditions large doe can save the heard with her knowlage of food and water sorcess.

^^^^^^ Due to early breeding the drop fawns earlier..

^^^^^^ will stand up to and fight off preditors to protect their young..and hide them better and in better feed.

EARLY BORN FAWNS= they are the ones who will get 2 to3 weeks of more prime food than late born..Biggest rack bucks are typically the first born. This is caused by good pedical growth(antler base) the first year of a bucks life is critical for this reason,because if the food is poor the energy that could go to antler growth (base only) goes to survival.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ In areas with limited high protien food many woods bucks are rarely more than a spike 3 pt or 4 pt..

In farm rich areas and mild winter it is not uncommon to see 1.5 yr 8 pts

So if you shoot a young spike or 3 or 4 or 6 pt you just eliminated a monster buck for next year and a smasher

in 2 to 3 years....

In summary if you want good deer potential (IMHO): dont shoot mule or hudge does

: dont shoot any young bucks.(body size is yer best indicator)

:Due put in food plots , Good mineral blocks = like giving vitamins to all deer but critical for pedical growth..

Try to remove coyotes all energy expended on escaping them has big effects ,on development.

If ya want a doe take a med one, If ya are limited to time in woods then enjoy yer right to take any buck...

If ya see a mature 4 or 6 pt (i have a 18 in 4 pt and a 16 in 6 pt) then do yer heard a favor and eat it..

OK, do some puter lookin at many sites and learn yerself some cool infoas how to compensate for our soil in ny ...

How many subspiecies of white tail are their do some reasearch you will be amazed...

opps fire is burning low tonight!

[skipper19]

Thanks Ray!...very good observations and advice. All true. I was once a big woods hunter (Catskills) Delaware and Otsego counties and now that I am a Lyntuckian, I have little wood lots and lots of farm land and a thicker terrain of underbrush and swampy land. The bucks I have seen here are much bigger body and antlers than the woods bucks. Tougher to hunt in ways that they don't use any particular patch of woods every day..hard to pick which lot of woods would be the winner.. but do move along hedge rows between fields and that changes my strategy to more of a small game hunter. Had to teach myself not to try to hike for 2 miles in the woods (didn't take long after walking out the other side in 500 yards) for the prime deep woods bedding/ feeding areas. I been able to watch small bucks just walk by with even limited hunting time due to work and weather restrictions, knowing that there will be bigger older bucks coming. Used to believe I had to take the first buck that came along. Taking a young doe for the freezer is a good choice over a huge doe for the quality of eating and the survival of the herd and genetics...a very good point you brought up and makes sense.

Mark

[BSmaster]

Good stuff Ray.

Buck to Doe ratio is very important too. I have noticed areas where hunting is not prevalent but there is ample forage that some fawns are being born out as late as August... Antlers not dropping until April. These areas are more susceptible to winter kills. There are still a lot of hunters that believe in no doe hunting. This can lead to a weakened herd.

Predators also include Bobcats and Bear which are obviously more difficult to manage legally.

BTW I forgot my pack last night. I had 5 shells in my coat and my knife was already on my belt when I put my pants on so I didn't manage to cash in on the forgetting my gear luck. Oh well... Try again tomorrow.

Joe

[Chas0218]

Hmm ,whos first?

If ya see a mature 4 or 6 pt (i have a 18 in 4 pt and a 16 in 6 pt) then do yer heard a favor and eat it..

OK, do some puter lookin at many sites and learn yerself some cool infoas how to compensate for our soil in ny ...

How many subspiecies of white tail are their do some reasearch you will be amazed...

opps fire is burning low tonight!

Great info but just one question; What about a 2.5 year old 8 point that is just a small basket rack should he be removed from the herd? When I say basket rack I am talking maybe a 14" inside spread, and 3" tines with the G3's just barely enough to hang a ring on.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Chas, as already stated, when the fawn buck is born determines alot. That 2.5 you describe could have been a late born fawn with only a small spike rack his first year. I'm pretty certain biologists including Dr James Kroll conducted a expansive study years ago determining that spikes are not always inferior, but in many cases just need TIME(age).

If I remember correctly, the spike debate found that it was age/and or nutrition in most cases-not genetics. They proved their position by documenting several monster perfect typical 12 points that started as spikes in more than one part of the country.

Keep in mind, even in a fairly healthy "fair chase"(not high fence) scenario, with a herd expressing decent buck to doe ratios, there will still be some "late born" fawns. The "2nd rut" is usually healthy fawn does coming into heat and with that their fawns will be smaller and born later.

All this doesn't matter if there are "game stealers" on or near your hunting spot. They just caught a scumbag with 4 bucks at night next to where we have hunted and passed small bucks for several years. Pathetic.

[ray koziatek]

Well the g3 does sound very whimpy . Dont think it will amount to much as far as that big beautiful rack ... If ya know someone who never shot a buck let them hunt with you if this buck has a good pattern you can put that person on its path. usually smaller rack bucks feel more confidant in daylight hours for some reason. So if ya dont want a bunch of his offspring running around ??????

With that said remember "antler base growth" maybe as a young deer its momma got hit by a car and it had a tuff 1st year.. so it might have Great Genes tho its own antlers will never be much ... Now What?

If you have seen big racks with the same shape but bigger that might be the case.

If you havent managing your area carefully for 5 years this will be a tuff call as to what he can pass on to his offspring.

If ya need the meat you shoot it.... but as i said you could make someones day , by letting a first time take this buck, and it might put a BIG smile on your face too......

[Chas0218]

Ya my father and I have been managing the property since 2008 along with most of the neighbors. My father unfortunately has that never shoot a doe mind set that makes managing tough when it is only me taking 1-2 doe a season. This year we have only seen 1 mature buck that didn't amount to much (7 point small rack, 4.5 year old deer.) Our buck to doe ratio is about 1:5 which is pretty horrible.

[Gill-T]

I would never shoot a young eight. The ones to cull are the MATURE sevens, sixes etc. Sometimes weak or no brow tines need to be considered as cull deer.

[BSmaster]

I love watching somebody get their first deer. The smile on their face is priceless. The look of uncertainty as they start to field dress it. The occassional drag by the hind legs is hilarious. We had a rookie with us this year. I was rooting for him but he didn't pull the trigger. I wanted him to kill something (buck, doe, fawn) for my excitement. Oh well, I am hoping he makes it back.

Chas, Biggest deer I ever got had a small rack. (3 on R, left broken) Definitely an older deer. We assumed it never recovered from the previous year's rut. We don't know that for sure. Could be something else. I have seen management shows where they decide to cull what they call "scrub bucks". I really do not know how this is determined unless they have really good knowledge of the herd and know what to expect for development.

Gill-T, It takes a lot of seasoning and experience for most hunters to lay off a nice young 8pt. Buck fever gets them and those tines look a lot bigger when the deer is still running. It happens to me a lot more than I want to admit.

[Gill-T]

By all means start out young hunters with an open book on what to shoot. Get 'em hooked first then start to include them in the management discussion. Applying too rigid of management rules often leads to hard feelings and camps breaking up. I took place in a camp in Arkport that was one of the first to practice QDM. My relative landowners instituted a $400 fine for hunters shooting anything less than a 120" deer. Needless to say I don't hunt there anymore.