crazy hunting

[Diversion]

I didn't confuse nuisance tags with the party tags. My point was, why do i get denied a tag, if the farmer down the road is gonna get 25 nuisance tags, that isn't right, considering the trend of the population decrease that I have seen over the past 10 years.

Like mrhappy said about over in catt county where the farmer depleated his entire herd, thats bad news. I hope that is not happening near my camp, as there are a number of cattle farms.

[mrhappy]

Fishman - to the best of my knowledge you are correct. It is supposed to be a certain amount of NP's per acre, however, in my experiences with these things it doesn't seem to be very regulated at all. Like I said in one of my last posts the lease I had was 390 acres and the farmer was given 25 of them, I know this for a fact as I was given 5 by the farmer to use if I so desired. Another thing that is of concern is this farmer did not have to prove any type of damage at all to his property, actually Region 9 staff approached him regarding using them on his property. The lack of deer sightings trend (for many) did not start with the introduction of coyotes it started when most hunters began walking the woods with at least 2 DMP's in hand. The DMP distribution in many DMU's is very lobsided. There is one DMU that I am familiar with in particular located in south central NYS where you can't get a second permit but it's not uncommon to see 30-40 does in one morning sitting in the same tree..... and you will see or hear that dreaded coyote almost daily as well.

[W.W.IV.]

Diversion,I reread your post, your right.

[Yankee Troller]

We get a bunch of "nuisence" permits each summer and hunting season. I know most of them get filled too. On top of these are the DMP (party permits). So each year there is a lot of deer taken off our farm we lease. Unfortunatley, and we havent caught them in the act, some of the guys take bucks with those. I wouldnt mind seeing the "nuisence permits" disappear, but then again we always see deer on our hill.

[ray koziatek]

well i do agree that there are too many doe permits issued (filled) ,but from the opinion of someone who is in the woods almost every day(i hunt more than i fish)in the 6 major parcels of woods i hunt including Indana the bucks outnumber the does 5 to 1,i also will try to obtain the photos of a camera set up on a coyote den that showes clearly 17 different fawns and yearlings being drug into the den over the period of 1 spring .road kills are huge numbers,but have you noticed how many more urban and roadside deer there have been in the last 4 years ,could it be that something has pushed them to the safty of houses and populated areas?if anyone thinks that coyotes dont have a MAJOR role in the decrease of the deer herd i have a beautiful bridge to sell ya with a great view of new york city.i have seen groups of coyotes(ahem they dont hunt in packs)of 2 to5 coyotes cahasing deer several times in the last 5 years .ya might pull the wool over my eyes on fishing but ive hunted for 42 years and i know what is happining in the woods.the area near farms was devestated by nusence permits like mr happy stated several years before the coyotes mysteriously appeared

[poverty stricken II]

Got up to the hill the other day late in the morning. I sat for a while, with nothing seened to be moving I walked around to see if I could see where the deer were moving throughout the woods. I had seen 4 different sets of tracks, but one was a little concerning. I set of tracks moving to another piece of woods across the street, with 4-5 set of coyote tracks on that trail. On our land one side of the woods is migratory and the other is bedding. I would say that about 10 deer have been taken over a 3-4 year period. The woods around us have not really had much pressure from what I have seen. There is ample food with fields on top and small creeks running through our woods. These fields are the biggest in the area around 100 acres (an old farm that is now used for hay) there is more than enough cover to hold the deer with little pressure from humans, but still numbers are down. Over 10 years ago there were a huge number of deer and back then a large number were taken. I would say that about 2-3 deer a year are taken off the land a year with this year only one taken. Could the large number taken over 10 years ago be the cause, or should of the heard bounced back by now?

[mrhappy]

Poverty Stricken - Think about it....100 acres is really NOT alot of land! How many resident deer do you think are on that piece on average per season. If you Kill lets say 5 does that you are aware of and lets be realistic here(unless you patrol the property and convict the Trespassers) there is going to be a few more deer taken than you think. Now lets factor into the equasion that IF you have appropriate seasonal food and bedding there is a good chance that the 10 does killed may have produced 20-30 offspring the following spring, thats a significant number! Again I am not against folks harvesting "some" doe's but we need to slow things down here and the NP's have a HUGH impact on deer numbers.

Ray.... I am interested in that bridge for sale and until we as hunters can see the evidence of MAJOR Coyote kills I will always be in the market for that bridge. Please I am more than interested in seeing those photos of coyotes dragging deer into the den! I am an avid whitetail hunter mostly bow and spend an insane amount of time ALL year scouting and hunting. However, I am not going to get into who spends how much time in the woods or for how long but I am going to say we as hunters need to take a look at whats happening here. The reality is that there aren't too many guy's that are fortunate enough to hunt everyday and pass buck after buck up waiting for the 3.5 year- old you know you will kill! To the average hunter this is a problem and it's not the DOGS making those deer dissapear.

[W.W.IV.]

Gentlemen,I don't have a problem shooting doe. With my two party tags archery and B.P. I can take four doe,but I hunt 8H-8M and 7 something. That spreads it out. I think taking all your deer off one plot is foolish,but I hunt the town of Mendon and I don't think you can do to much harm there. I don't hunt 3.5 year olds,I hunt for meat not for the wall. By the way I very seldom fill all my tags,I think doe are more alert then bucks in general. What I'm saying is you can putt a hurting on an area without N.Ps. There maybe fewer hunters but I think most of them are more knowledgeable .

[poverty stricken II]

Mr Happy, you are correct that 100 acres is not a lot, but when you consider that is what we own. there are probably 10 houses in a 3-4 mile range. I can not speak on the other lands as I do not hunt them. As far as the people hunting on our land they are either family or close to family. People who own land in the adjacent properties, have stopped and talked to my aunt who owns the old farm on the top of the hill and all have said they have seen a decline in deer population and an increase in coytoes. Could there be poachers? yes. could there be people hunting the land that we don't know? Maybe, but they would noticed if they had a car. Yes many years ago a huge impact was hit on the deer, from our woods and others. The question I was asking shouldn't the popluation have bounced back by now if the decline was from hunting alone. now the deer you see in our woods may be a 2 sets of doe and 2 yearlings a couple of small bucks and one dominate buck. There also has been a huge decline in turkeys. a few years ago I had 30 birds walk under my tree stand most were jakes. this year I have seen only one flock with about 6-10 birds in the fields. I have seen a few scraps and feathers where something had gotten them. For me I am not buying the bridge that coyotes have had no impact.

[mrhappy]

Poverty Stricken - Let me make it clear that I am not disagreeing with you that the Yote population is at a all time high and that they do HAVE large impact on our Wild Turkey population. I have seen that first hand with my OWN two eyes. I hunt YOTES frequently during the winter months and one of my best techniques is Turkey decoys and calls. HOWEVER.....you kind of are reinforcing what I am saying in that you don't know what is going on with the surrouinding parcels of land. Perhaps those surrounding parcels are being hunted and perhaps a number of the deer being harvested are does??? If this is the case then there is no way that the "herd" as you indicated could bounce back quickly and signifficantly. Frankly up until two years ago the State was handing out DMP's in record numbers, it wasn't until last year did they actually decrease the DMP distribution dramatically. In my experiences in hunting and observing Yotes the past few years they infrequently kill deer, it seems to me as though the are a pretty lazy animal and would much rather attempt to kill a Turkey, Rabbit, Pheasant, Cat and more than likely and most frequently a Mouse! Again, I stress that these smaller animals and many others for that matter are very hinderd by the Yote population!!! In my observations with my own eyes (not mystery pictures/stories) of Yotes running deer down and killing them is that they are going to choose the parth of least resistance and energy in regrds to what they will be eating or serving to their young. I will agree that Yotes will capitialize on dead deer and eat off them until its is completely gone as well as possibly dragging them to a more comfortable area for them. I have also witnessed Yotes travel miles to deer carcass for their evening snacks. Perhaps the habitat in woods and fields around the area you hunt have changed? Lack of mast crops, farming etc...are good reason why the deer may have also disappeared. SO.... When we people start blaming the "herd" decline on YOTES I am always going to yell out BULL&*%%!!!!!!! Stop shooting the does on your property and convince the folks around you to also and you will see your "herd"increase right before your eyes!!!!! In the meantime I will keep buying those bridges and selectively and conservatively harvest does on my leases!

[GAMBLER]

I do my part and have tag soup every season. You can't blame me for this one!

[Fish Junkie]

I am in the same mind set as Mr Happy. The state has been too lax about giving out deer permits and we are seeing a direct result of it. Another fine example of this is PA. Ask any hunter there if they have seen result from the AR's that were rammed down their throat about 5 years ago and just about anyone of them will tell you that the program hasn't lived up to everyones expectations. Granted the results vary from region to region but many will tell you that as a trade off of producing some larger bucks, the herd is has been close to decimated in certain areas. The state goofed and to offset the manditory antler restrictions, they issued a surplus of doe permits. The first few years were great. Everyone was filling multiple doe tags. On top of that it appeared more mature bucks were being harvested a couple of seasons into the program. Ask the hunters about it now. Most say they are lucky to see a deer in certain parts of the state. Simply too many deer were harvested.

I fear NY is not far behind if the state doesn't curb the issuing of too many permits.

On a side note,

Poverty Stricken,

You mentioned that the fields on your property were hay fields. One of the properties I hunt on is the same way after being cornfields for years. The hay doesn't seem to hold much nutritional value for the deer and we are seeing less deer on the property in part as a result of it I believe. I had been thinking that the deer in the area had started feeding somewhere else. After cleaning a buck I shot last year that had corn in him, it helped to confirm my suspicion. Just saying that it could be a factor.

[Absolut40]

The more doe permits that are issued then the more button bucks are going to get killed.I hunt P.A. and it is true that some areas of the state the deer herd was decimated.My friend was smart enough to see the light at the end of the tunnel and stopped doe shooting before it was too late.Just because the state issues you a doe permit doesnt mean you have to fill it.

[mrhappy]

Finally!!!!!!! Absolut & Fishjunkie THANKS SO MUCH GUY'S!!!!!I did not want to bring the PA situation into this topic as I am not well versed in that debacle, however, many of my whitetail enthustast friends in the Keystone State are refering to their "infamous" whitetail biologist as Dr. Kevorkian!!!!! Frankly (BOY HERE IS ANOTHER CAN OF WORMS) I and many others feel the antler restrictions are a joke ! It seems to us that the trend is reversing here. The inferior bucks (spikes) are being protected and the bucks needed for the so called QDM are being blasted!!!! What is the average age of the buck typically harvested in NY & PA?????? 1.5 YRS OLD!!!!!! WHY on earth IF we want QDM are we encouraging hunters to kill the quality Young bucks (1.5 yr old 6 qnd 8'pts.)???? Once again I have to bring a few Midwestern states into the equasion, go shoot a button buck or a 1.5 year-old buck there and see what gets said!!!!! I have to believe what I am SEEING is true in both NY & PA regarding the average size of Bucks harvested and it is definetly showing a decline in average antler size! SOOOOO.... As much as I LOVE the direction of this thread is going I still have to say IS IT REALLY THOSE YOTES KILLING THOUSANDS OF DEER ANNUALLY OR ONCE AGAIN SHULD WE BE ASKING THAT INFAMOUS QUESTION??????????? Here is another can of worms (gawd why do I do this) if the states continue to insist on handing out these DMP's like candy canes how about they consider that if you shoot a deer and it has testicles(no matter how big button buck - trophy) you MUST put your buck tag on it. At leat this would decrease the senseless harvesting of potential QUALITY deer. I want to again remind you that I am in favor of QDM as much as I am of QDH(Quality Deer Hunt). The time is NOW guy's that we start to wright this ship, if not, more and more will be eating tag soup and making excuses. SOOOO... not to be pompous but if anyone is interested in sharing that bridge with me there is still some room for the guy's who enjoy seeing deer on a daily basis (because they selectivly harvest their bucks and does)and regularly harvest 120 - 140 plus inch 3.5 year olds on a yearly basis!!!! GOOD HUNTING!!!!

[Absolut40]

I find it funny when i talk to people around the area i hunt inP.A. and there complaining of not seeing anything.These are the same guys that had 3 doe permits in there pocket and filled every one when the great Dr Alt was doing his herd reduction.I agree that some areas had to be thinned out to a certain extent,not totally decimated.Your also going to see the herd thinned out even more in NY now that you can use rifles in certain counties.You might not notice the impact at first but 5 to 10 years down the road youll see a noticeable difference.

[seasquirrel]

I beg to differ with you that the coyotes are not impacting the deer herd. Yes if you kill a doe you possibly eliminate three deer the next fall. I think the trend of fewer hunters that are out there not killing doe help balance out those who are taking doe. In the spring of the year, those 'yotes are killing fawns at an alarming rate. There is some serious studies to prove that. I know where I hunt I can and do shoot many coyotes a season. Blast those greasy smelly top of the food chain deer killing 'yotes!

[marcus]

While we all sit here and point the finger at what we think is the problem, we should stop and agree that all the points that have been brought up are good ones. Some being better then others they are all contributing factors of a depleating deer population. Do the coyotes kill fawns? yes... Do I slaughter deer with nusence permits? absolutely... Do motorists kill more then all of us? sure seems that way sometimes...

I hunt the same farm with Yankee Troller and the deer population seems to be getting better. We have seen an increase in dogs, coyotes, and the deer. Why im not sure, but im not shy to shoot any of them. Every year for the past 4 or 5 we have received( from the farmer) 25 nusence permits. We have no trouble filling them plus are regular DMP's. In fact its so good this year, after trippling on opening day( an 8pt and 2 doe ) it became kind of boring. The one thing about these permits also is that if you don't fill them you don't get them the next year. Im not saying that this is a bad thing, but this is however the reason why SOME people shot anything just to fill them( not good)

In Steuben County the reason there is no 3 to 5 yr old deer taken is because the average age of the deer harvested there is 1.5yrs old. This doesn't meen they are not there. There is so much land down there i often wonder how many deer do not see humans?? A nother reason why some of us may not see many deer is that with all the pressure they become nocternal, hence the reason why most car deer accidents happen at nite. The pressure of hunters could also be the reason why the deer population in the suburbs are increasing.I cant tell you how many deer i see in Gates at 2 O'clock in the morning when im plowing( in the middle of housing tracks)

About all the " no doe hunting" I have heard that by killing a doe this year you may be killing up to three for the following year, assuming she was knocked up I have also heard that one buck may mount, and knock up as many as 15 doe. So if this is true, 1 doe may = up to 3 deer but 1 buck may = as many as 45. This is what i heard i am not an expert.

What i have written is just my opinion, only backed by my experience and what i have seen in the woods.

[mrhappy]

marcus - I had convinced myself that I was not going to reply to this thread any longer to avoid frustrating myself! However, once again many of my thoughts are being reinforced here! First off, you are aggreing that as the YOTES increase so is your WHITETAIL population. Absolutley, and I would risk saying so is the Turkey population. Like a select few of us, you are very lucky to be hunting a tract of land that more than likely has the elements to "hold" wild game! Food and cover!!!! I will disagree with you and say that your population is declining. Again I will strees I am not against the SELECTIVE harvesting of DOES! Let me ask you....in the past 4-5 years of the thinning of your herd how many button bucks were taken???? So again to reinforce what I am trying to say here, as we wrecklessly thin(not that your group is) we are decreasing our future antlered deer population. With the current DMP and nusciance process this cannot be denied! More importantly you state a very important COMBINATION of facts regarding ratios of numbers of future deer being produced, and their genetics. As you indicated the average age of the bucks taken in the state is 1.5 yrs old (probably including that 8pt you harvested) what sense does is make to harvest that QUALITY and then let the spikes walk so they can "grow up"? So while we are harvesting those QUALITY deer we are letting those spikes which will probably always be a spike walk around and breed. Again I somewhat agree with your logics regarding breeding purposes of both sexes as I too have seen it with my own two eyes. I am not going to get into where deer live and why, but I will say that they are pretty adaptable creatures and can survive just about anywhere. I still am stating that YOTES are not killing off our DEER and the Deer managment process here in NY nad PA is broke. I will say that in the area we hunt we DO selectively harvest does to fill DMP'S, we do attempt to get rid of as many of the "inferior" bucks as we legally can, we DO see Yotes. All while aggreing to not harvest "quality" 1.5 to 2.5 year olds and in the last 4 years we have all harvested 130 inch plus Bucks along with a doe or two. Makes sense? For the last few years many of my hunting companions whom are very well versed (i should add that one is a whitetail biologist and another owns a local deer farm with quality genetics) have been pushing for a change and it falls on deaf ears. Until we realize that YOTES/cars/diseases are not killing thousands of deer we can just contine to listen to the MAJORITY of hunters complain about their hunts. Good hunting!

[Yankee Troller]

TOO MANY BUTTON BUCKS are killed each year! 3 of them were killed this past weekend on the farm. If Im shooting a doea and its belly doesnt sink down then im not pulling the trigger! All of the 8 pt's taken off the farm were 2.5yr old bucks.

[mrhappy]

YANKEE....THANK YOU!!!!!! First off, congrats on harvesting 2.5 yr olds! Thats a great start to growing some nice bucks. And what a great philosphy on your choosing of the "Does" you are shooting. Your BUCK population thanks you! Good luck with the smokepole the rest of the season. Happy.